Why is Caesar legion so hated?

I don't really hate the legion. A lot of the legion's problems is that it's underrepresented. We only ever see the military locations, which are slaving assholes for the most part. We hear some of the protection they give to the normal citizens that are under them, but we don't actually see it other than the trader in the Fort. From what I heard they wanted to add in more content for the Legion, but were denied the time, so what we got was just a portion of what was intended.
 
I wish there there was a speech option for ultra-high intelligence characters where you could tell Caesar that him and his legion are more like hordes of Germanic barbarians crossing the Rhine or the Danube to loot the eternal city than they are like the man and men of their namesake crossing the Rubicon. I'm assuming either the book that would've told him how the Western Roman Empire died wasn't part of the Followers' library, or Edward Sallow has an atrocious sense of irony.

Basically I hate them because they're a bunch of savages. I like my fascist regimes brutally futurist and in no other flavours.
 
I think its funny because people seem to not like the Enclave and yet feel like the Legion is redeemable which throws me for a loop. I can't hang with Legion for several reason outside the obvious slavery and negative treatment of women. Yeah, they had very little representation outside of the war they were in, but from what you hear from their own mouths and individuals that used to be with them they aren't very good. Burned man had a chip on his shoulder, but his way of building up the tribes he'd come to live with was far more reasonable and humane than what Caesar was said to do. Also, thinks that threw me off was how the legate could kill a 1/10th of their platoons every once in a while to instill order and they still have a sizable army. Even if you take into account the numerous tribes they taken in, there couldn't have been more than 50 children per tribe. So between dying of natural causes, not being able to keep up with the brutal regimen, disobedience/insubordination and enslavement of the weak I can't see how their army was to impressive verses the NCR. Then on top of that I am a thinker and do not have appreciation for someone expecting me to follow their orders unconditionally not do I have love for someone who only respects the strength of troop over their well fare. He has a doctor who was a slave but she didn't even know enough to make effect healing powders because he was not willing to do anything but increase his military strength. For however charismatic he was supposed to be, he never really impressed me with his words not did he ever make me feel like he had a very sophisticated vision for the world.
 
@Neon Child: It mostly has to do with the fact that we have no seen much of the legion outside of their military, really. The Enclave were pretty much set up to be the bad guys/gals, while the legion was meant to have cities showing daily life under the legion. That was cut from final release.
 
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I think first impressions play a role, the first time you encounter them they have just brutally murdered a town full of people. Its not until you talk to Caesar in depth that you realize there might be a method behind the madness
 
1. They're murderers and slavers, why would they not be hated?

2. Caesar is a chump who read some books and basically hides that fact from his followers.

Easy.
 
1) I usually play an anti-slaver PC. I have since the Fallout 2 days (though I did pimp my wife out).
2) They didn't have enough quests to actually explore their allegiance (I've done it a few times, but it's really a boring playthrough for me), if only Obsidian had more time....
3) The dislike of medicine but willingness to use weapons seems a bit hypocritical to me.
4) Cesar was originally from the Followers, which is my favorite faction in the series (so I'm a cynical optimist, fuck me right?), and managed to betray their ideals.
5) Killing weaker members of your tribes just makes you weaker - there are jobs that weaker members can do while the strong rule and expand power (clean those toilets, Ramerez!).
 
ChildServices said:
I wish there there was a speech option for ultra-high intelligence characters where you could tell Caesar that him and his legion are more like hordes of Germanic barbarians crossing the Rhine or the Danube to loot the eternal city than they are like the man and men of their namesake crossing the Rubicon. I'm assuming either the book that would've told him how the Western Roman Empire died wasn't part of the Followers' library, or Edward Sallow has an atrocious sense of irony.

Basically I hate them because they're a bunch of savages. I like my fascist regimes brutally futurist and in no other flavours.
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I think Caesar is just suicidally insane. His dialog option of

Thesis and antithesis. The Colorado River is my Rubicon. The NCR council will be {beat}eradicated, but the new synthesis will change the Legion as well...
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infers that he may die, but his legion may rise.

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Caesar's_dialogue

Hegelian Dialectics? What are those?
But the resolution of the conflict yields something new - a synthesis - eliminating the flaws in each, leaving behind common elements and ideas.
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The bombs wiped the slate clean. Human civilization descended to a level of ignorance that effectively set our cultural progress back to zero.
The NCR has all of the problems of the ancient Roman Republic - extreme bureaucracy, corruption, extensive senatorial infighting.
Just as with the ancient Republic, it is natural that a military force should conquer and transform the NCR into a military dictatorship.
Thesis and antithesis. The Colorado River is my Rubicon. The NCR council will be {beat}eradicated, but the new synthesis will change the Legion as well...
Click to expand...
 
Because its a slap in the face of what the Roman Empire actually was: a place of not just violence, but culture and art. Culture wasnt "destroyed" it was ABSORBED into the Empire. The Legion is nothing but a fancy dressed Raider group that says fancy words the majority of them probably dont even know what they mean.
 
X12 said:
Because its a slap in the face of what the Roman Empire actually was: a place of not just violence, but culture and art. Culture wasnt "destroyed" it was ABSORBED into the Empire. The Legion is nothing but a fancy dressed Raider group that says fancy words the majority of them probably dont even know what they mean.
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I thought that was kinda the point. They didn't understand any of it but Caesar did.
 
The legion is not trying to be Rome, Caesar picked and chose the parts from their history he thinks are needed in the Post war world, he even disturbed the normally pro education and overly tolerant Followers into sending him far away to hopefully get killed by tribals.
 
You know, if Edward Sallow had actually tried to recreate Rome as it actually was and not what fit his blood and power lust it would have been a great and strong society in the post-war USA. The Romans were not war loving savages pretending they are civilized, they had culture and art, and they won just as many tribes to their side by diplomacy as they did by direct combat. Women, while lower than men, were still considered vital parts of society, and the way they are treated in the Legion was very rare in Ancient Rome. Fear is a good motivator, but, you should always, ALWAYS temper it with kindness. Show your subjects the consequences of disobeying, of disloyalty, but also show the benefits and rewards that loyalty to Nova Roma can bring.
 
Rome didn'tstart out like that tho, no matter how much we decorate history most of human civilization was built on rather horrible things which then transtioned in what we called civilized.
 
If anything Sallow's slaver army is much like pre-Republican Rome, "rape of the Sabine women" anyone ? Its only after the synthesis of NCR and Legion would we begin to truly see something akin to anything "Roman". Right now his tribal armies are more like the war-like Italic tribes with the NCR being more akin to the Etruscan or Greeks. So in a way he both is and isn't like the Rome he crudely emulates, just not the Imperial era Rome most people think about.
 
X12 said:
You know, if Edward Sallow had actually tried to recreate Rome as it actually was and not what fit his blood and power lust it would have been a great and strong society in the post-war USA. The Romans were not war loving savages pretending they are civilized, they had culture and art, and they won just as many tribes to their side by diplomacy as they did by direct combat. Women, while lower than men, were still considered vital parts of society, and the way they are treated in the Legion was very rare in Ancient Rome. Fear is a good motivator, but, you should always, ALWAYS temper it with kindness. Show your subjects the consequences of disobeying, of disloyalty, but also show the benefits and rewards that loyalty to Nova Roma can bring.
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That's just wrong. Do you realize how dependent on slaves early Rome was ? How their military expansion was mainly to push people off land, enslave them and give retired legionaries that land to farm to grow the empire? Roman might was what accrued all the wealth for that "art" you mention.. which was mostly pagan god worship honestly with the construction of elaborate temples. I will agree that since they are not a city based society and instead are a migrant horde society, he didn't follow the blueprint for romanizing very well.

Either way , Caesars legion is basically nomadic. They behave more like the mongols than the romans because i guess there wasn't any good cities for economic activity in Arizona. Caesar adapted roman military traditions because he read that they were able to effectively incorporate those they conquered into the empire, which was his entire problem. "I knew right away i'd have to eradicate this plague of tribal identities" . Anyway, we'll never really find out how his plan turns out because he planned to use Vegas as Rome and use the water and power from lake mead to settle agriculturally . (game ends without telling us how the future turns out for the legion, it just says caesar walks onto the strip very pleased with himself).


But in general while i find them interesting the legion are definitely not fun guys and are definitely not morally defensible unless you think they can stop nuclear war from happening in the future which is an awfully strange assumption. It's basically a society set up around destroying the identity of other societies. However since i don't always play characters that are real nice upstanding guys I go with legion ending a lot :D
 
If MCA really wanted to reset the wasteland instead of Lonesome Road'ing the NCR you have Legion and ol'Ed Sallow safely ensconced in the Lucky 38 in his Nova Roma. That would change the core region for sure. The Legion I feel while not fully luddite; is more or less technologically meritocratic. After all you still don't want to give newly conditioned tribals access to energy weapons and tech. That being said the mission you do for the Van Graffs shows the Legion is interested in energy weapons over all. I think the most loyal would get access to tech in this new regime. The weird sythesis culture of Legion/NCR would be an interesting setting for a possible Fallout NV2.
 
Kang the Mad said:
That's just wrong. Do you realize how dependent on slaves early Rome was ? How their military expansion was mainly to push people off land, enslave them and give retired legionaries that land to farm to grow the empire? Roman might was what accrued all the wealth for that "art" you mention.. which was mostly pagan god worship honestly with the construction of elaborate temples.
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Butthurt Carthaginian baby-killer detected.

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>all of Gaul in less than a decade
>obliterating the Seleucids
>obliterating Makedon
>obliterating Carthage
>razing the Second Jewish Temple to the ground and building a statue of Jupiter ontop of the ruins where it once stood
>Roman heritage endures in the East until 1453AD
>even the Germanic savages that inhabited most of Europe after the literal raping and pillaging the Western Roman Empire try to cling to the Roman legacy 400 years later with their phony "Holy Roman Empire"
>every European civilisation during the Renaissance tries to copy Roman architecture and enlightenment
>Modern Republicanism inspired by the ancient Roman regime

UTTERLY. GLORIOUS.
 
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