Why is Caesar legion so hated?

This whole Fallout Romans thing is just a poor plagiarism of A Canticle for Leibowitz novel plot anyway.
 
Because they run like a girl, and sit down to pee?



Seriously though, only because Obsidion ran out of time to flesh them out.
 
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Juza The Cloud said:
If MCA really wanted to reset the wasteland instead of Lonesome Road'ing the NCR you have Legion and ol'Ed Sallow safely ensconced in the Lucky 38 in his Nova Roma. That would change the core region for sure. The Legion I feel while not fully luddite; is more or less technologically meritocratic. After all you still don't want to give newly conditioned tribals access to energy weapons and tech. That being said the mission you do for the Van Graffs shows the Legion is interested in energy weapons over all. I think the most loyal would get access to tech in this new regime. The weird sythesis culture of Legion/NCR would be an interesting setting for a possible Fallout NV2.
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The Van Graff quest was always kind of puzzling to me, in light of Caesar's rhetoric about warriors vs gadgets and such. Was the deal with the Van Graffs organized by a rouge centurion, or was Caesar an even bigger hypocrite than he already seems? Can you image Legionnaires armed with plasma rifles?

(Come to think of it, the Legion death squads have no problem lobbing pulse grenades and plasma grenades at the Courier, so clearly they are not as anti-tech as they appear).

I also agree that a Legion victory, out of all the cannon endings, provides the most fertile ground for a "reset". What exactly would a "synthesis" of NCR/Legion culture look like?

Best case scenario, I envision something like Immortan Joe's empire in Mad Max: Fury Road but run out of Hoover Dam...
 
What would be better for a reset? a Legion Victory with Caesar alive and leading or the one with him dead and Lanius leading?
 
Walpknut said:
What would be better for a reset? a Legion Victory with Caesar alive and leading or the one with him dead and Lanius leading?
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I figure in this case Caesar alive and possibly in knowing he won't live long enough to see his new Order so he's goes "House" and oversees his generals and such from the Lucky 38 in his Nova Rome capital. I figure having him go that route would allow him to able to "live" long enough to oversee his synthesis. The "Reset" I was going on about would be the weird synthesis of the NCR with the Legion and the new society it would create and that it would carry over to the Core region. Think like Legion Centurions merging with NCR Rangers to make some new hybrid force. Think of various Locations in the Core region under Legion control. Think of the Legion slowly adopting tech and doling it out to various factions that have Caesar's loyalty and approval. I was thinking of a class of scribes of Caesar who worship/maintain him since he's going into House's life support unit. They would be like an Anti-Followers of the Apocalypse. A group that would take applicants and reeducate them to worship Caesar and also educate them about basic tech repairing or maintaining old world tech etc. Couple that with a Pro Legion Play-through of course so you have the consequences of that too; possibly say a Legion controlled Big Mountain as weird as that sounds. I think that would shake up the dynamics of the Core region as it is incorporated into The New Rome whatever culture. Something like that, I was just toying with the idea would be an interesting setting for a New Vegas 2
 
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Caesar disappears into the Lucky 38, orders keep on flowing out, the legion keeps expanding west. The NCR fragments under the defeat into several statelets, each geographically and ideologically distinct, prevented from falling into their own territorial squabbles by the need to band together and fight back the legion's gruelling advance along I15.

The new game starts ten years after New Vegas (this time in land controlled by the legion, maybe on the Oregon-Idaho border, close to the frontier, for a bit of a change in scenery). Our story begins when the Legion come to conscript the protagonist, and the choices they make at that point define the rest of the game, join the legion with your friends, defend the peace and safety you have known growing up, run away and join one of the factions of the former NCR, or shoot everyone in the balls and make youtube videos about it because you are a drooling idiot who doesn't like moral complexity.

[Various ideas: Caesar has died, the inner circle of the legion is pretending he is still alive as they are afraid of what will happen if the news gets out. There are Mormon remnants from New Canaan, because that could be interesting. Tribals who haven't been assimilated or destroyed yet. Good writing, complex characters, no Enclave, no organised BoS (although a side quest or two could be cool)]
 
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They exist just to fill the evil bastard part of the story. The Legion is just an organized group of raiders. They kill and pillage for no real reason. It is mentioned that there are good things about being under the Legion if your town knuckled under. I hope who ever makes another game featuring the Legion will take a cue from Skyrim of all places. If you played Oblivion and Skyrim, everyone hates the empire in Oblivion, especially the Nords. By the time Skyrim, a sizable portion of the population loves the empire. This would be interesting to see with the Legion. They're hated on the edges of their territory, but loved in areas under their rule, or at least not out right hated.
 
They aren't one dimensional, but they could've benefited from more development time to have some Legion controlled territory accesible.
 
peadar87 said:
[Various ideas: Caesar has died, the inner circle of the legion is pretending he is still alive as they are afraid of what will happen if the news gets out. There are Mormon remnants from New Canaan, because that could be interesting. Tribals who haven't been assimilated or destroyed yet. Good writing, complex characters, no Enclave, no organised BoS (although a side quest or two could be cool)]
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Or Caesar simply does the same shit House did and lives for on for centuries.

Tribal culture in general is very much underrepresented in the new Fallout titles, especially since one of the two major factions in the west is essentially made up of 87 tribes.

As for the Legion itself, I liked them the most ever since I first met them. Being European, I didn't even know that it was football gear they were wearing. As it was pointed out many times, what we see of the Legion is what their tactics are like, not their society. As for the whole misogyny thing, the fact that they treat their female slaves poorly doesn't mean that women aren't respected or well treated in their society.

Whatever their faults, I still like them far better than the NCR. House and Caesar are practically the same - powerful figures who forced their culture onto tribes they dominated through superior knowledge.
 
Walpknut said:
They aren't one dimensional, but they could've benefited from more development time to have some Legion controlled territory accesible.
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Considering the fact taht they are pretty much a slaver army, well ... yeah they are somewhat one dimensional. I mean we can all now come up with some kind of positive trait, but realistically speaking, deep down in our hearts, if we absolutely honest. You can't excuse it. You just can't. No matter how much more you flesh it out how many nice towns you show etc. Deep down, you know they are slavers. The only way it could work is if there was no altnerative. But with House and the NCR you have even two alternaives which are better. That makes the Legion realistically speaking, the bad guy. I mean I am sure the Nazis have not been all evil and neither was every guy in the South the kind of person that tortured his slaves. But they still have been taking part in very questionable systems build on princples that most citizens today refuse. Finding reasons to explain the Legion is a decent choice or just as a moraly gray factions doesn't change that their core vallues can't be seen as a good choice.

The main reason why the Legion simply can't be explained is because you have alternatives, true alternatives.
 
The Legion is hated because most gamers, and even the oldschool fanbase of this franchise, are a bunch of politically correct weenies who want to ban video games for having a slightly more morally objectionable group as a playable faction and not just some sock puppet for the plot that everybody in the game repeatedly tells you to murder.
 
ChildServices said:
The Legion is hated because most gamers, and even the oldschool fanbase of this franchise, are a bunch of politically correct weenies who want to ban video games for having a slightly more morally objectionable group as a playable faction and not just some sock puppet for the plot that everybody in the game repeatedly tells you to murder.
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Em, what?! Gamers want to ban video games? Riiiiiiiight...
 
@ChildServices:

Nah, I simply don't believe that empire formed by military conquest should work properly for a long period of time. People conquered by force don't forget the oppression, never ever! Instead of thinking how to make their new state prosper, they're focused on sabotaging it from within. Look at our history, where are these glorious empires formed on corpses of its own people now? Roman empire? British? Spanish? Portuguese? Greek? They've collapsed under its own weight, losing their colonies one by one.

Also, what would happen after Caesar's death? Who would replace him? His most trusted and feared general, legate Lanius? Or some of the cunning frumentarii? One worse than another..

tl;dr: I think that forming the empire by sword and blood is a wrong idea, Caesar's plan is doomed and flawed to the core. Too bad that poor fucker is blinded with false images of his own self-importance so he can't see it!
 
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valcik said:
@ChildServices:

Nah, I simply don't believe that empire formed by military conquest should work properly for a long period of time. People conquered by force don't forget the oppression, never ever! Instead of thinking how to make their new state prosper, they're focused on sabotaging it from within. Look at our history, where are these glorious empires formed on corpses of its own people now? Roman empire? British? Spanish? Portuguese? Greek? They've collapsed under its own weight, losing their colonies one by one.

Also, what would happen after Caesar's death? Who would replace him? His most trusted and feared general, legate Lanius? Or some of the cunning frumentarii? One worse than another..

tl;dr: I think that forming the empire by sword and blood is a wrong idea, Caesar's plan is doomed and flawed to the core. Too bad that poor fucker is blinded with false images of his own self-importance so he can't see it!
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The Roman Empire was destroyed by other conquerors (400-500 years after its foundation, hardly what I'd describe as "not working properly for a long period of time"), not some grand rebellion of its conquered peoples. The Celts and Iberians within their borders became Romanised and were loyal to the empire for much of its history, same with the Greeks, hell the Greeks continued to call themselves Romans well into the 15th century. I guess you forgot that the Eastern Roman Empire existed until 1453AD (my avatar is the flag of one of its ruling dynasties). I don't really see what your point is.
 
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ChildServices said:
The Roman Empire was destroyed by other conquerors (400-500 years after its foundation, hardly what I'd describe as "not working properly for a long period of time"), not some grand rebellion of its conquered peoples.
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Are you aware that the Roman Empire was attacked after its own internal problems caused weakness and instability from within? It started with economic problems, centuries before its fall, because Roman army was so huge that the payment for soldiers bleed it dry. You know, the more people and lands you conquer by military force, the bigger army you need to control it later.

Are you aware of so called Crisis of the Third Century in the Roman Empire? It was a direct result of economic and social destabilisation - plague, civil wars, assassinations in governemtn on a regular basis.. Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Third_Century
As a result, the weakened and destabilised empire has been attacked by German armies and Goths.

The same happened to Great Moravia btw. Vratislav and Spytihnev, two Bohemians dukes on western border forced to be part of the empire against their will, have decided to form alliance with Franks and attack their Moravian rulers at some point. Whilst the empire was successfuly defending its western border against this new threat, Turkish and Mongolian tribes have attacked the unprotected eastern borders and everything started falling apart. At this moment, Huns took their opportunity and launched massive and destructive invasion, which was the end of another empire. It all started by internal conflicts, again.

My point? I'll repeat it again - I don't believe that people conquered by military force can forget the oppression just like that.
 
There were plentiful crises such as the one you described, but they were a result of the feudal system, which I don't imagine Caesar's system to be like. Caesar also seems to have improved the quality of life in any conquered territory dramatically, probably enriched it culturally as well.

Any uprisings Rome dealt with after a province had accepted its culture were individuals trying to further their own personal agenda, not popular uprisings. The people didn't really care. And let's not forget that Caesar does have more advanced technology than the Romans, which allows for a more centralized empire, and therefore less powerful individuals alongside Caesar.

A revolt of that kind is far more likely in the NCR than in Legion. Perhaps the next Obsidian-made Fallout brings us a post-apocalyptic civil war scenario.
 
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