Why is Caesar legion so hated?
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Black Angel
Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus
How would there be no freedom under Mr. House? No justice, alright I get that. But,
Hell, Benny managed to go wherever he pleases during the time he worked for Mr. House. Sure, the exact ending slide for Mr. House's rule of New Vegas stated how the streets of New Vegas became orderly, efficient, and cold, which can be interpreted as lack of freedom, but for the rest of the Mojave, if you do it right, and by that I mean specifically, most of the inhabitants, from Freeside to Primm, were mostly left alone and they can do whatever they want.Mr. House said:
On side note, why the Legion was hated, it was because of
Invading the NCR might not be a realistic goal, but like Caesar said, he wanted to make New Vegas his Pax Romana, and where his Legion could finally settle down and finally became its own nation.
mithrap
Ring a ding-ding, baby
Invading the NCR could actually work, with a nice amount of luck and good strategy. The brotherhood, far less in numbers, presented a serious threat for the entire NCR, and we know that the roads aren't safe there, meaning that there are tribes or groups of raiders. In exchange for a peaceful assimilation, Caesar could use them as auxiliaries inside enemy lines, cutting support for the troops.
Then would come the one serious battle, that would decide if the Hub falls or not (and let's not forget that Caesar's forces would be far stronger, given the boomer's support and the war trophies of the Mojave, whereas the NCR would be less powerful. And they couldn't dedicate their entire forces for the Hub, considering the menace of the brotherhood, still there, and even the borders with the Shi, who could decide to take advantage of the chaos). The Hub is actually pretty close to the Mojave Outpost, and there are no cities on the path (that we know of).
If the hub falls, Kimball (or any president) could actually be forced to negociate terms of surrender. He would be in the exact same situation as France at the beginning of WWII, when the Marechal Petain did surrender. The Boneyard would be cut from the main roads. Same for Dayglow and the southern cities ; basically, the entire south side of the NCR would be cut, if the hub falls. Sure, the NCR could actually launch counter attacks, but what would be the point, now ? The Legion could retreat everywhere in the south, and actually hold entire cities hostage, like Junktown. If pushed away from the Hub, they could retaliate by razing the Boneyard. They could force the conflict to go for years, while indoctrinating children on the occupied lands, while the NCR would be short on cash, short on morale and short on new recruits. Unless the Shi decide to support them in their times of need, the NCR citizen would not have the morale to keep on fighting.
Caesar would not have enough leverage to actually turn the NCR into the Legion, sure... but at this point, he doesn't need to. So there would come his hegelian dialectics : a compromise. Some sort of vassal state, next to the first real state of the Legion, which would change the two factions radically.
He would probably demilitarize the NCR to protect his own borders, and turn the NCR army into a police but guarantee safe commercial exchanges. Make them pay the war costs to make sure they cannot get up, until they view the Legion as a decent neighboor/master, and forget its atrocities. They could then negociate shared governance on the future NCR colonies, which would insure that they are not too humiliated, and would accept most cultural changes.
Basically, what happened between Rome and Egypt, or France and Germany.
Of course, there would be freedom. Hell, there is "some kind" of freedom in the Legion's lands, too. It's just not the main thematic of House's faction, it's not what characterizes it in the narrative.
There would be limited freedom, as there would be in his benevolent, libertarian dictatorship (if that makes any sense). Sure, come and do whatever you like, but don't ever cross the house that always wins like Benny did. Don't ever try anything against him. Don't even think about it, because his robot army is patrolling the streets, making sure this scenario cannot happen. Don't ever try to run discuss his orders, because he knows better than anyone alive.
In the NCR, at least, you have the freedom of expressing open disagreement with the main power, like most soldiers you run across do. While it's a feodal state, it's not a dictatorship per se. They cannot guarantee justice or prosperity, but they can guarantee your individual freedom.
Caesar could guarantee your security, and justice for anyone who would try to disturb your peace.
House couldn't guarantee any of this, but he could make sure that as long as you trust his wisdom, you will win. Money, properties, women, no problem. "It's the old vegas all over again, baby."
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Black Angel
Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus
Huh, I guess it all comes down to preference then. The more you work for him, the more he actually opens up to you, you DO get to discuss his orders in the later part of his questline. Like had been discussed in this site many times, a House route most probably would end up in a dual-dictatorship/autocracy with House and the Courier, more preferably a Good Karma Courier, with House holding Vegas, while the Courier own the rest of the Mojave, especially since the rest of the Mojave obviously trusted the Courier more than House. So, really, I don't quite see how there would be no freedom like in the NCR. Think about it, while Benny tried his best to convince you to go Independent, he's mostly driven by greed. Oh well, at least by actually trying to actively go against House, Benny showed how incompetent he is by wearing his really specific suit, leaving those cigarettes, lighter, and later then panicking the moment the Courier showed up in his face.
As for the Legion invading the NCR, yeah that's one of the most likely scenario, provided Caesar succeeded in making New Vegas his Pax Romana.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
What? The Soviet Union didn't forcefully assimilate everyone. What the fuck are you talking about? They were brutal yes, but they didn't try to assimilate people.
They opressed any form of nationalism though. And often enough very violently.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Wouldn't you? Especially as nationalism resulted in the war of Estonian Independence, the Basmatchi Revolts and the Makhnovists?
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
Maybe not assimilate in a Legion-esque way, but Stalin evolved population displacement into an artform, no matter how many people died or starved. And like Crni says, they had a history of coming down on local nationalisms. That's not unique to the USSR of course (or to Russia itself for that matter) but minorities were rarely most welcome in Soviet Russia.
I doubt the Legion could invade the NCR heartlands. Sweeping a demoralized army fighting on foreign soil with enemies almost all around (Khans, Fiends, Brotherhood, raiders, muties) is one thing. Attacking the nation itself is quite another, and I doubt the Legion has the logistics required to hold all their acquired territory (nevermind how I find them holding these lands to make little sense) while also sending enough soldiers to crush NCR. They'd need a much bigger army than the one at Hoover Dam. Even Lanius recognizes this problem.
I doubt the Legion could invade the NCR heartlands. Sweeping a demoralized army fighting on foreign soil with enemies almost all around (Khans, Fiends, Brotherhood, raiders, muties) is one thing. Attacking the nation itself is quite another, and I doubt the Legion has the logistics required to hold all their acquired territory (nevermind how I find them holding these lands to make little sense) while also sending enough soldiers to crush NCR. They'd need a much bigger army than the one at Hoover Dam. Even Lanius recognizes this problem.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
That wasn't to assimilate everyone into Russia, but to take down nationalist movements and force groups to do what Stalin said.
Of course they did. One of the core tenets of communism is that your previous identity, be it defined by class, race, or nationality, is replaced by a new identity as a socialist cog. Ask, say, Estonians how much they were allowed to keep their cultural and national identity during the years of Soviet rule.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
I have, I lived there for seven months. And that's mainly because their national hero is a fucking rebel. Yep, their hero is a sign of dissent and the fight against foreign oppressive governments.
Oh cool, lovely country.
If you want other examples, look at Islamic State. They actively and brutally crush other cultures within their borders, christians, Shi'a, Yazidis. It doesn't make them peacefully assimilate, it makes them fight. The same in imperial China. A vast and disparate empire, which a succession of dynasties tried to impose homogeneity upon, with varying degrees of brutality. It was repeatedly hit by rebellions, insurrections and regime changes.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
It is actually, I liked it though Estonians can be 'cold' so to speak.
The USSR suffered mainly from political and economic rebellions, with some nationalist risings but these were limited to the Interbellum period for most cases.
What you conquer with viollence, you have to hold with viollence. I mean, when you opress people it's not really a surprise when they revolt and start wars of indepdence. I mean com on, you're an itelligent lad. With all your love for the legion, which is alright I am not attacking you, but do we really have to excuse the crimes of the Sovietunion? It was a regime after all.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
I'm not excusing... okay maybe I am. It's just for all the death and oppression, the USSR took Russia out of the farm and into the industrial age. It became a super power out of the turmoil of WW1, the revolution, the civil war and WW2.
Also, are you drunk or tired? Your spelling is crap.
Actually, this does bring up an interesting point relating to Fallout. If I was a Russian, I'd probably prefer to have lived under the Soviets than the Tsars (even under the 20 years of Stalin, if I'd kept my head down). As you said, they transformed an oppressive agrarian country to an oppressive, relatively prosperous, modern industrial country.
However, the brutality and oppression is not necessarily vital for the economic gains. Germany, Japan, France and Italy all recovered from being bombed pretty much back to the stone age under liberal, democratic governments.
If it were a choice between the USSR and the Tsars, I'd choose the USSR. If it were a choice between the Legion and constantly warring tribes and gangs, I'd choose the legion. But it's not. In the real world, I'd still choose Western Europe. In Fallout, I'd still choose the NCR or an independent Vegas.
Depends for who. The Sovietunion wasn't as prosperous as people think. Particularly for the farmers. Yes, Tzarist Russia was shit. But a lot of the changes that we saw in the Sovietunion took already place under the Tzarist regime, like industrialisation. It's not like Stalin or Lenin came in one day and said, no more slavery now! People have been fucked up by the system long before they heard from Lenin and his communist followers. People often use the average living standard of the average Russian under the Tzar and compare it with the average Soviet citizen, and say, look! It was better!. But they forget that from 1918 to 1939 before WW2 broke out, the living standard of ALL european citizens was growing. Since the Tzar had to resign in 1918, we have no clue how much Russia would have improved in those 20 years under the Tzar and if it maybe became even a constitutional monarchy like in the UK.
Infact, I even argue that communism slowed down progress in the Sovietunion after WW1 due to the Isolationist nature of the communist regime, particulary under Stalin. They rejected a lot of the science and theories which came from the west. Take the military as example. Soviet commanders developed the tactic of the so called deep battle, which was inspired by Fuller and other military theories which involved combined forces and a strong focus on fast and mobile tanks and units. Many of those ideas have been rejected, simply beacuse they came from the west, and commanders faced harsh penalities if not outright excecution under Stalin. Communism, in the Sovietunion, was a very riggid system. Particularly biology and agriculture was heavily dominated by their theory of social darwinism which was totally bollocks.
Infact, I even argue that communism slowed down progress in the Sovietunion after WW1 due to the Isolationist nature of the communist regime, particulary under Stalin. They rejected a lot of the science and theories which came from the west. Take the military as example. Soviet commanders developed the tactic of the so called deep battle, which was inspired by Fuller and other military theories which involved combined forces and a strong focus on fast and mobile tanks and units. Many of those ideas have been rejected, simply beacuse they came from the west, and commanders faced harsh penalities if not outright excecution under Stalin. Communism, in the Sovietunion, was a very riggid system. Particularly biology and agriculture was heavily dominated by their theory of social darwinism which was totally bollocks.
eissa
Artanis "Altáriel" Nerwen Nos Finwe
homo sovieticus, ye?
Earth
Vault Senior Citizen
"Why is Caesar's Legion so hated?"
No idea. Might have something to do with all the institutionalised rape. And torture. And murder.
No idea. Might have something to do with all the institutionalised rape. And torture. And murder.
Sn1p3r187
Carolinian Shaolin Monk
Yeah exactly what Earth said. But at the same time. I think they might also be hated for their fashion sense. Just sayin. Also, I think in the end their means of victory justify their ends. Their hated because a lot of people know the Legion will fall after Caesar is dead. Maybe it's hated because people know it's not built to last.