It's again that time of the year ... or Muslim bashing!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Jul 16, 2016.

  1. Antiwarprofallout

    Antiwarprofallout It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jun 13, 2016
    He's sitting next to Admiral Horthy, then leader of the landlocked country of Hungary.
     
  2. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    I was referring to our traditions actually, which is just a fragment of whole culture going much deeper than short period of occupation, mind you. Probably completely alienated concept for someone who've left his homeland and exchanged his culture for something else, I understand.

    Back to moslems though. Since I had answered your question here, it's your turn now, so I'll repeat it - what's your proposal regarding those millions of future African refugees? Do you think that current immigration policy is sustainable in current form? Do you have some answer for this actually, or would you ignore this question as before and countinue with your far left wing extremist rants about Hitlor instead?
     
  3. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    What kind of tradition though? I am genuinely curious. I can't speak for Slovakia, obviously. But my experience with Germany at least tells me that when people here talk about tradition and culture, they usually refer only to their habits and not what a culture or tradition really is, most people don't even know enough about their history and culture. Quite a lot of what we see today in Germany has almost NOTHING to do with christianity, the German culture or what ever. But people just think it does, because they feel comfortable with it.

    Honestly? German culture and tradition for example has been trough out history very violent and militaristic, and no, I am not specically meaning WW2. Although the end of WW2 saw a very huge shift to pacifism and liberalism, for obvious reasons. But when you see what role militarism and the authorities had particularly before WW2 and WW1, it is not surprising why there have been so many conflicts.

    I mean I am not talking about you when I say this, but I have to kinda laugh about some I know who talk about the German culture and tradition but can't even remember one single lesson from their history classes and have no fucking clue where even the German flag is coming from, can't even name you a handfull of popular German philsophers, writers or scientists. And they havn't read the bible or actually know any of the religious tenets. But obviously they know what German culture is and what makes a good christian ...

    I will try to give you a detailed answer on what I would see as solution. Keep in mind though, that no one of us is an expert and thus it is more my opinion. It could very well be that there is no perfect solution.

    So, here is a detailed opinion on what I what I would like to see.
    First things first, I would try to seperate it in long term and short term solutions.

    1. In the short term.
    We have to improve the situations of those refugees and migrants that are already here and those which are on their way and will arrive here in the next months and years. They are already on their way, either trough the deserts or the sea. So it is just a question of time before we have to deal with it. Otherwise, I fear we will simply face more cases where people storm the borders not just with 300 people but with 30 000 or even 300 000. People are easier to manage when you keep them in a stable environment. And that is what we should try to aim for. If possible of course. No one's saying that we should give the refugees the most luxurious life that is possible. But clean and safe shelters, food, medical treatment and education isn't to much to ask for I think. Some of it is already under way, so things are getting better. But there is still a lot of room for improvements. There are also a lot of chances and oportunities here. If we take our time to educate them, those that decide to return, can do a lot of good things in their nations. And thus they will lower the number of refugees in the future. An investement in the long term!

    Border controll is another issue that has to be tackled. We have to reach a common agreement between the EU member states, we have no common politic with migration into the EU zone. This is a huge problem! Becuse some nations like Germany and France take a lot of refugees, where as nations like Italy and Greece are left alone with their borders, where as some nations take almost zero refugeees. The way we are doing it right now is highly inefficient and it doesn't help the situation a lot. It doesn't keep the people out nor does it save their lives. It just costs us a fuck ton of money. So there is a lot of things that have to be improved here. Like I said, finding an agreement where all nations work together, and where no nation is left alone with their issue, as like how it has been done in the past with Italy, Greece and Spain should be our priority here. It is clear that we can't leave for example Italy alone with millions of refugees but we also have to make sure that they don't all just drown in the mediterranean as it fuels the propaganda of extremists.

    The borders of the EU zone are fucking huge. It's unrealistic to think that we will be capable of protecting every piece of it. That's simply not possible. However we have to make sure that potentially dangerous people are keept outside. But it has to be done on a case to case basis. And we have to accept the fact that there is simply no 100% fail safe system. but Sending 10 000 people back because of 10 terrorists hiding in the crowd, will create a lot of new problems, because you might now not deal with 10 terrorists which will make their way in to Europe anyway, but also 10 000 potentially frustrated people. And I would rather worry about 10 real terorists instead of 1000 potential terrorists. It is a bit complicated and I am simplying it a lot right now. But I think you get the picture. The more we work together here and the more clear regulations we have, the easier will it be to to make decisions though and to sort out the bad apples from the good ones and dealing with those that fought for ISIS or are radicaly accordingly. I fear if we become more agressive, they will simply find othe ways to enther our borders. But hopefully we can avoid situations where refugees are send from nation to nation and back to the borders again just to end up in some camp again. Like I said, stability should be the top priority. It makes it also easier to spot the ones that make trouble.

    2. Long term solutions
    Those are a lot more difficult to achieve. First, we should look deeply in to why people want to come here. The two reasons are, economical stability and safety. Most people want to either improve their current situation or flee from conflicts. To change this, will take a lot of time. And that's the problem. It is touching on a lot of issues and Europe has no foreign policy. The UK is dealing with foreign policy and nations like Syra in a different way then Germany and France.

    But I think a lot of things would already improve if we would do change a couple of points. And I think they could be achieved. First, no more weapons to questionable regimes and muslim nations like Qatar, Saud Arabia, Oman etc. We call those nations our allies, but honestly, it is simply to fucked up. They supply groups that openly want to fight us. How does that make sense? And we support those nations simply because the US wants to keep their military bases there. Which brings me to the second point.

    We should put more preasure on the US. As European Union. Sometimes I ask my self who's the worse allie, the arabian nations or the US with their surveilance and military interventions. We should urge the US to give up their military bases in muslim nations. A lot of extremist groups see that as huge affront. They see it as occupation of their holy teritory. And many muslims think like that. And I who can blame them for it? We wouldn't accept Al Quaida in Vatican city either. Why do we have so many military bases all around the world? I don't see how it's making us any safer, it just costs us fuck ton of money and lives. If we want to keep our borders stabile and secure then we have to display more interest into the nations that are actually at our borders, like Turkey and the african states that are close to the mediterranean. Stabile neighbours means stable borders. The Roman empire has colapsed as much from the preasure outside of it's borders as much as to the preasure it experienced from the inside.

    Last but not least, fair trade deals with African nations. We complain a lot about TTIP, TISA, CETA and all that trade crap. Yet we have no problem with screwing over African states and bullying some into agreeing into our contracts, even though those leave many of the African economies in a very critical situation. See the state of the chicken farmers in African states who simply can't compete with European products. They are forced to close their busisness, and as a consquence, many chose to move out of Africa. And when they decide to do something, like with taxes we threaten them with embarogs and dimplomatic preasure. We have to make sure that people stay there, and that they have a chance to actually make a living in their own nations. This means that we have to support stability, reasonable governments, and making fair deals that benefits them as much as it benefits us.

    Conclussion.
    Well, I think what we mainly need is patience and a clear agenda as Union where the nations agree on certain principles. Like a common basis for immigration and border controll. At least where it is possible. But time is of the essence here. The issues we see now, will only become worse. And then we might not have a chance to actually chose between the alternatives. And it will come down to very extreme measures. Particularly in 100 years, when you look the prospects of climate change where we might see mass immigration from Spain, Italy and Grece in to regions like Germany, Norway, Sweden etc. Simply because those regions will suffer less from the effects of global warming. So the most difficuilt part will be to actually get people in to thinking not just from term to term, but into 5, 10, 20 and eventually 50 years. I am pretty sure that we won't solve ALL of the issues, but I am confident that we can actually make a change now and actually write history. We have a chance to actually see the warnings, this is very unique, historically speaking. But sadly we are not making the right decisions. But the problem, is not technology. It's our behaviour.
    And this is the issue I have with nationalism, populism and right wing parties, who seem to offer easy solutions and think that it could be all solved in a couple of months or maybe just a few years. But I feel that this is a problem that will take DECADES before we actually get a real stable outcome. Simply because of the complexity of the issues and the fact that we are talking about many different problems, like foreign diplomacy, domestic policy, economic issues and so on. But, we have the technology to make changes. We just have to use it correctly. Call me naive, but I like to think tha Carl Sagan is right in the end. We Humans are Capable of Greatness.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
  4. R.Graves

    R.Graves Functionally Defective

    Apr 21, 2016
    Can't we just hate everyone equally? Wouldn't that be the best form of equality?
     
  5. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    Equity, not equality is what we want.
     
  6. Illuminati Confirmed!

    Illuminati Confirmed! Banned

    Dec 15, 2015
    I don't know what makes me more happy, the refugee getting tipped over or The Young Turds being buttblasted about it.

    As for your mentioning of the way Gypsies are treated in Hungary, I think if you actually saw a real live bunch of them, you'd quickly see that it's they who are doing most of the treating. Jobbik support is highest in the parts with the biggest concentration of Gypsies. If they were a nice culture to coexist with, that's exactly where it would be the lowest.
     
  7. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    So... you've seen a real group of them right?
     
  8. Izak

    Izak I Shot The ALBATROSS

    Jan 29, 2016
    I'm not sure I understand, are refugees cows now? Fuck nevermind, I didn't see the rest of the quoted post.
     
  9. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Of course he has. Illuminati Confirmed! would never dare to talk about things he doesn't have any actual experiences with. Naturally he has expertise and experience in everything.
     
  10. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Crni:

    Yep, I get the picture. What I see in your post is basically a lot of good intentions without any rational background or sustainable plan. In a few words - you're proposing to tear down the outside borders of Schengen area and let everyone in. Which means constant yearly flow of millions refugees walking freely to Berlin without any security screening or medical examinations, and being relocated against their will all across the Europe later. Not going to work, you can't hold economical migrants in less developed countries by other means than force. As for Africa, you acknowledge possible problems such as shortages of water or food, you correctly acknowledge that this is not some wild theory but a fact confirmed by NASA observations monitoring the surface sources of drinking water all across the globe, and yet you assume than we can keep billions of future Africans on their continent somehow. Let's hope for some major scientific breakthrough making this possible, because this is not going to happen otherwise.

    Also, you're assuming free redistribution of European social benefits to hundreds of millions people who haven't contributed to this system at all, which is unrealistic. I do understand that you, as a former immigrant living good life thanks to generosity of hosting German nation, can't hold any other view except of this far left wing socialistic dream, but these financial and other resources are not endless.
     
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    No of course he hasn't. They aren't Aryan enough that an Iluminati Confirmed would hang around with them.

    What? Cool. So either you havn't read anything of it or you don't understand what I am trying to say. With no word have I said, let everyone in and don't care who we let in!

    All I am saying is, treat people individually. We have to decide from case to case. If you think that it is fair to see 10 000 people as potential terrorists because of a handfull of REAL ones, then I am sorry but you already made up your mind. I could probably do the same with Slovakia. We have lazy idiot Slovakians here who are criminals and just want to exploit the German wellfare state. Maybe we should have a referendum to throw Slovakia out of the EU and never have anything to do with them and send ALL of the Slovakians that are in Germany back! I mean you're all lazy bums right? There are a few good ones, I suppose but when Slovakia sends their people here, they are not sending their best ones. And on top of it they are corrupt criminals too! See how that goes? Stereotypes are fun!

    Yes, a lot of it ARE good intentions I even agree with that. I am naive when it comes to those things. And I am glad about it. I am sorry that I grew up with a lot of Muslims that some of them have been my best friends, that I worked with so many different people, from Uganda to Iran and Iraq. And that I treat people yeah well, as people and not as culture or like all would be the same, people don't work like the Borg collective usually you know.

    But I think what I propose is not impossible to achieve. It's not some technical difficulty. It's simply the elephant in the room that no one is adressing. It's interestesting how most popular scientist are more worried about global warming and the way exploit the resources instead of this migration.

    And I have yet to see one of those populist parties to adress the issue that we are happy to sell weapons to nations that finance our enemies and then we are surprised when they blow them self up in London. Yeah well there is a conection here. But try to explain that to the ultra nationlist Ukip member who's only crying Leave EU Leave EU! And Britain uber alles.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
  12. olestra

    olestra Still Mildly Glowing

    Mar 26, 2016
    If only we funded the arts, then it would be the Iraqi black metal scene that wouldn't hang around with him.
     
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  13. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    And how are we supposed to do this without borders? You either let everyone in, or keep them at bay until they'll undergo security screenings, I don't see any other way around this.

    What? We don't send anyone to Germany, that's bollocks. Actually it's German representatives who goes here to agitate at our universities and lure our educated population to Germany by promises of lucrative work in German hospitals or schools, including all the non-standard financial benefits and housing. As for the gastarbeiters and gypsies, they're going on their own, lured by high wages or good criminal/beggar opportunities. :-)

    You know what's funny? We've experienced influx of our intellectual workers going back home from Germany. I had read very interesting interviews, where Czech doctor described the situation in German hospitals as "dangerous" - huge loads of uneducated moslem migrants from Africa or the middle east going full berserker, spilling their urine samples all over the women in medical staff, endangering them by knives or verbal death threats, calling them whores and future slaves of Islam. The reason? Rampaging savages have been told that they have syphilis or HIV diagnosed and have to stay in hospital. Hassknecht was right, a lot of educated folks have left Germany recently, both Germans and foreigners.
     
  14. Buxbaum666

    Buxbaum666 Heterostructured Nanorod oTO Orderite

    Dec 5, 2003
    The anecdotes are strong with this one. It seems you do believe any old bullshit that passes the confirmation bias filter.

    Edit: Found what you were referring to. Also found Snopes ripping it to shreds.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
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  15. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    How many hospitals dealing with immigration related examinations/vaccinations you've worked for in 2014-2016, Buxbaum666? Care to elaborate? And, most importantly, why shall I trust you more than my own family member who've studied at LFUK here in Slovakia and provided me first-hand insight? Anyway, I don't care about your "anecdote" insults, since for me you are just average German living in his personal safe space and surrounded by informational bubble. :salute:

    edit: LOL
    Going through that "ripped to shreds" article, what a pile of nonsense pandering to gullible citizens! I thought better of you, check out this for example:

    Debunked:

    AIDS, syphilis, and tuberculosis are hardly diseases modern doctors would consider "exotic," and it beggars belief that anyone (particularly a "physician")

    As I can see it, she wrote that there are many cases of AIDS, syphilis, or open TB. Plus some exotic diseases on top of it. Debunker proved his own stupidity by this article, nothing else. :salute:
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
  16. Buxbaum666

    Buxbaum666 Heterostructured Nanorod oTO Orderite

    Dec 5, 2003
    I don't work in a hospital so any unsubstantiated fear-mongering rumour about "Rampaging savages" must be true? Some logic.

    So now a family member told you? I thought you "read very interesting interviews"? Keep your story straight, man.

    Yeah, I know. The Media™ is part of a huge conspiracy to hide the truth about hordes of rampaging savages pissing all over our hospitals. That's all they do, you know - just drive around listening to raps and shooting all the jobs.
    Thank god for these plucky right-wing bloggers They can't seem to take down.
     
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  17. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Nah, you working in hospital would have made your arguments much more relevant for me, nothing else.

    My family members told me about German representatives agitating on our universities, you're mixing it up and losing grip. :salute:

    So you can't see the logical inconsistency in your "ripping to shred" article at all? Are you aware that you proved my point by this actually?
     
  18. Buxbaum666

    Buxbaum666 Heterostructured Nanorod oTO Orderite

    Dec 5, 2003
    Although I find that hard to believe, too, I wasn't talking about that anywhere. I was directly adressing the "A Czech doctor said..." bullshit.

    I can see the logical inconsistencies in the alleged letter. Let's see. The "Exotic diseases we can't treat in Europe" thing is bullshit whatsoever. Tourists bring back all kinds of diseases, all the time, and we can treat them.

    That doesn't make any sense at all. There's no difference between "Clinics" and "Hospitals" in Germany. It's a different word for the same thing. That last sentence is literally saying "Hospitals cannot handle emergencies, so they are starting to send everything to the hospitals".

    Utter nonsense, dogs aren't allowed in hospitals, unless it's to detect a bomb or something.

    Again with the imaginary "clinics and hospitals" distinction. Also hospitals are public buildings that anyone can enter freely. If the police were guarding them, people would know.
    Pharmacies are businesses. If a business needs/wants protection, they have to hire private security. The police is not private security. Also, again: people would know.

    Seriously, what kind of doctor is this supposed to be? Complaining about people bringing diseases to the hospital, seriously? Treating diseases is exactly what hospitals and doctors are for.

    You'd think a doctor would know how syphillis is transmitted.

    It isn't.
     
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  19. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    I had read this interview in Czech article, with the redactor asking question and she addressing it. This "debunked" article is debunking from translated e-mail someone send to young lady Kim LaCapria writing for snopes. So, she's not debunking the original article in the first place, just poorly and perhaps intentionaly messed up inaccurate translation, whilst doing a lot of logical lapses on her own in the process. Sorry, this is simply not relevant to me.
     
  20. Buxbaum666

    Buxbaum666 Heterostructured Nanorod oTO Orderite

    Dec 5, 2003