A video on the Brexit and why the UK should leave.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Erich van Loon, Jun 22, 2016.

Do you want Britain to Leave? Or to Stay?

  1. Leave

    23 vote(s)
    47.9%
  2. Stay

    16 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. I don't care...

    9 vote(s)
    18.8%
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  1. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dogmeat

    Nov 22, 2009
    Hassknecht,

    I don't care what or who is causing it as long as it stops quickly. Folks like Geert Wilders, Marine Le Pen and similar types over here in Finland and elsewhere are trying to capitalise on this.

    John Oliver vid about Brexit.

     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
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  2. SuAside

    SuAside Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Admin

    May 27, 2004
    The sitting government's job is not to make plans for something it does not support.
    It's logical for a PM to step down and leave it up to the LEAVE voting parties to sort this crap out.

     
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  3. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    51%. More like just half of the nation. And if you imagine that not all parts voted equally ... than it is a lot more accurate to say that this is more a polarized opinion which divided the nation. Like London and Scotland who have a clear majority that wants to stay in the EU. Seriously, I really, really, really would love to see a referendum in London to make it an independed city. Very unlikely - I think - but it would be absolutely hilarious. Democracy people, remember? We have to respect the will of the people. I mean, hey! Why should Londonders be forced to pay for poor parts of the UK and supporting them with their taxes! Millions of pounds that could be spend on Londoner schools, which are in dire need of reforms!

    And if 51% of them voted that Hitler was a humanitarian to the jews, that Mars makes a great place for holidays and that the moon was made of cheese, it would not make it more of a fact. How many of you people voted for the war in Iraq, based on WMDs? Just to change your opinion on the subject. This votum was heavily about feelings and emotions. The UK might be doing better in the future without the EU. But no one knows it. And that is the point. Some of us here believe the UK will do worse, at least in the near future and probably in the long run. But I don't know it. What we know, the only thing we know, is how the UK did with the EU so far. And who can tell, that the UK wouldn't have colapsed already without the EU? There is no way to tell that. Only the future, the next 5, 10 and 20 years will give us some clarity here, what ever if Brexit will lead to a better UK or not. However, if Scotland really becomes indepdend, this Brexit would have done more damage to the UK than the EU ever could. Or maybe the EU brainwashed them? Equally possible I guess! I mean the EU is a communist system after all ...

    Neither did all of the 60+ million people in Germany when the SA and Nazi goons attacked jewish shops and other minorities ... for well, being minorities. And yes, the Weimar republic had laws against it. And yet, at some point the Nazis took over. Germany wasn't a dictatorship from one day to the next. It happened gradualy. And the tides in Europe are slowly but steadily changing, where more and more extemist views - not just the far right, but they are the loudest right now, become more and more acceptable, while the majority remains silent. Not unlike in the 1920s and 30s. It's not surprising that some WW2 veterans see a problem with the current situation in Europe.

    You have to see those things in context.

    Considering the fact that he is often seen as someone who is anti-establishment, anti capitalist, anti corporation, anti-mainstream-politic the images you post sure make him look a lot like he would be one of those people. Strange enough, he was for quite some time a member of the European parliament. One might get the idea, he joined it for the money. Money that was taken from the British people I guess - wasn't the claim against the EU? It is pretty strange really. The same shit here. So many of those populists rampage and cry about the EU ... yet many of them have a seat there. Well, it is an easy way to get money I guess. But it is only exploting the system when others take it ...

    Italy has the better actors in their soccer team.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
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  4. Izak

    Izak I Shot The ALBATROSS

    Jan 29, 2016
    Racism based on the referendum is bad and all but it's not comparable to pogroms in Weimar/Early Nazi Germany, the UK certainly isn't close to that situation. Realistically, this is just a small pocket of assholes from the leave group patting themselves on the back for their victory by screaming racial slurs, it's not a reflection on the UK as a whole and it's not an organised affair.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Ever heard about Proncipiis obsta? It is a rather common expression here in Germany, wehret den Anfängen, which mens nip it in the bud. This has become somewhat a common slogan after WW2 and regarding racism, discrimination and extremism. I see a growing slack when it comes to opposing right wing and left wing populism here in Europe. The fact that more and more right wing groups gain political influence and popularity, is a very alarming fact.
    I never said it would be exactly the same like in the Weimar Republic or that everyone who's xenophobic is a nazi and extremist, just that those things happen gradualy. Again, people don't wake up one day with the target to throw all jews in concentration camps. People are not born with hate. But you can not denny that there has always been a certain resentment against minorites in history. Sometimes more, sometimes less. What ever if it was against homosexuals, foreigners, immigrants and now the Islam. Obviously the largest group, are not those that outright hate those minorities, I doubt that most people would feel comfortable with concentration camps.

    But I have been also a victim to very ugly forms of racism in the past. So I know what I am talking about. And I know a lot of people that experienced it, and I have no reason to doubt what they told me. Particularly as one of those people was my Sister, my Mother and a very good and close friend. The problem is, I see right now how a lot of those slurs and the kind of xenophobic rhetoric that was not uncommon in Germany during the 1930s is making a comeback in all of Europe, where minorites and the EU become more and more the scape goat for home made issues. What makes it even worse and more dangerous, is that factually some of the points are even true. No one can denny the dangers of islamism, particularly in the middle east, or the unenployment rate among gypsis in Euroope. But what worries me is the solutions some propose ... or what some name as the reasons. Just because a certain group has a high unployment rate, doesn't have to mean that they are simply lazy or bad or inferior.
    The thing is, language usually always comes first before we see actions. When they examined the genocide in Rhwanda, a very common expression was cockroach for the Tutsi. The genocide followed months of verbal propaganda, in some cases years, where certain terms have become widespread among the people and where they created a lot of fear and tension. Those things don't happen without reason nor do they happen in a day. But give this rhetoric some years with gradualy growing tension and agressivity over time, and throw a few bits of other destabilizing factors in it, like decreasing wages, stagnatic economy, and the lack of proper education, and you got a pretty good recipe for a potential disaster. And when the frustration inside a population is reaching a certain peak in relation with intangible fears, who knows what might happen. Either politically with more laws against minorities, or even trough violence. People love to forget that many european nations had laws against homoseuxality even till the 1990s, where it was legal to hospitalize them. So even in our so called modern and civilized socities, are not without failure.

    We are talking about highly complex topics here, economical, political and religious issues. Those are simply the challanges of our time. And the root of said problems are very difficult to identify, if there even is a single factor. And finding solutions is even harder. Except of course, for all the populists out there. They have this one solution to everything. And for them the roots of said issues are also absolutely clear. And obviously, it is all very simple too. Close the borders! Build walls/fences! Get rid of the EU! This will all fix it. Yeah ... the more common those kind of rhetoric becomes, the easier is it for extremism to find a breeding ground within the population for extemist views. And as someone who was only born in Germany, this kind of evolution worries me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
  6. AskWazzup

    AskWazzup Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2008
  7. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dogmeat

    Nov 22, 2009
    Could you give a short synopsis of what that site is trying to raise awareness of and promote? I looked at it for a while and couldn't figure it out. I'm stupid.
     
  8. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    You can cry all you want but 52% is still a majority. No amount of mental gymnastics is going to change that, sorry not sorry.
    Never before have I seen such a large body of text devoted to making the same childish "y-you guise are just like HITLER" non-argument we've all seen a million times.
     
  9. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dogmeat

    Nov 22, 2009
  10. Risewild

    Risewild Antediluvian as Feck
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    A majority, but not a majority of the UK's people. A bit more than 3 million British people that are in foreign countries didn't had a say because they didn't got the papers in time to vote or the papers didn't get counted because they arrived too late. The same happened with some people inside the UK that for whatever reason had to mail their vote.
    Then we have the thing that 25% of people didn't vote. And some of those actually wanted to vote, but floods and bad weather prevented them from doing it. 52% of 3/4 is not a majority of the population.
    And third we have the idiots that didn't want for Brexit to win but because they are stupid voted for it anyway. Human stupidity will never cease to surprise me.
    Vergil, I am sorry to say but you seem to be losing your touch. While you used to present arguments and debate things quite well in the past, your response to Crni Vuk just shows you are not even reading what people are writing anymore.
    And posting a picture like that over and over just makes it seem like your cornered against a wall and run out of anything relevant to say. Same goes for all the Nigel Farage pics you keep posting, it just looks childish and that you have nothing relevant to add to the discussion, and that is sad :puppy-dog:.
     
  11. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    Tell me, why would I waste my time going through his monolithic paragraphs, point by point to debate a man who when I've done so in the past has never done any research, has many a time openly said he barely knows about the topic he's arguing about, refuses to look at any evidence that I present, constantly repeats the same tired points that I've already brought up in the discussion and utterly refuses to accept when he's lost. I've said it already before in I believe this thread or the other Brexit thread that frankly I've gotton tired of responding to someone who clearly has no interest in an actually debate with facts and sources to back up his claims and instead prefers to virtue signal in self smugness despite being very clearly incorrect. It's tiresome to actually put some effort into one of my posts only to have him fart out a response with a paper thin argument that when I call him out on he won't even address it and continue move the goalposts to keep from admitting when he's incorrect. I haven't been "backed into a corner". I've realized theres no point arguing with a brick wall.

    As for posting that picture over and over again (only two times actually, and they're slightly different btw. So don't make it out like I've been here for the past few hours posting the same thing "over and over" again). I'll stop posting "it" when people stop crying about how I'm an "ebul nazi omg ur like hitler" instead of rebuking anything I say.

    As for the pictures of Farage, theres nothing "sad" about celebrating a victory.
     
  12. RoboStang

    RoboStang First time out of the vault

    69
    Jun 10, 2016
    What argument are you trying to support by citing these attacks? Trump supporters are getting attacked in the USA and nobody bats an eye. Are you also worried about those people getting attacked?

    http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-supporters-attacked-at-san-jose-rally-2016-6

    http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/protesters-attack-trump-supporters-san-jose-rally-39601243

    Personally I'm most disturbed by the terrorists that just murdered 36 people and injured over 100 at the Istanbul International Airport.
     
  13. Risewild

    Risewild Antediluvian as Feck
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Then why are you wasting your time posting nothing relevant at all? If you quote something and reply to it you should at least read it, or just don't reply to it :confused:.
    It is sad that you're celebrating by being childish and just with the intent of annoy or whatever it is the reason you keep posting the pics. It shows a very immature side of you. So it is sad :puppy-dog:.

    EDIT: I just realise I may sound like I am annoyed or angry or something, that is far from it, I am more confused and curious than anything else.

    EDIT 2: About Trump supporters being attacked, I think it is because the USA has a way more passive way of thinking. People get attacked, or killed or whatever and everyone just go "oh well, glad it wasn't me" and just forget about it soon after. I have no idea to be honest, that was just a thought.
     
  14. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    Someone replied to something I said, and I replied back. If anything my posts are about as/far more relevant than Cmi's rants on how Britain is just like Nazi Germany now. Or even your posts to me right now where you try to take the intellectual high ground and constantly insult me in your infinite smugness. I'll respond as I see fit to be quite blunt, just because you're unhappy that I didn't sit here and spend an hour holding his hand and explaining why everyone who voted leave isn't exactly the same as hitler or how anecdotal stories aren't the same has general trends and patterns (oh and believe me I would love to, if I hadn't already done that and gotton absolutly nowhere on multiple occasions), doesn't mean you get to dictate what's "relevant". And why am I the only one who you feel need to be "content policed"? MutantScalper just posted a video of a late night comedy show yet you don't feel the need to complain that, that wasn't up to par? Could it be perhaps, that you have a bias against me?
    Based on my previous interactions with Cmi I'm not the one you need to be saying this to.
    Oh dear Lord. :roll:
    *ahem*
    I'm quite sorry my dear that my celebratory postings were not up to your exquisite expectations. Perhaps next time I'm writing a post on an internet forum I'll put on my top hat and monocle and crack open a bottle of commemorative sherry next time I elect to show my pleasure at the absolutely capital outcome of the current political decisions. Next time I'll be sure to consult you on what is most appropriate for such a momentous and important occasion that we all know posting on a miscellaneous thread is. :monocle:
     
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  15. RoboStang

    RoboStang First time out of the vault

    69
    Jun 10, 2016
    I am seeing those things in context.
    Particularly in the context that:
    • Germany had lost WWI
    • Hitler believed that the Jews were behind the Bolshevik movement
    • Hitler also blamed the Jews for Germany's defeat
    • 414 of the 440 clauses of the Treaty of Versailles were devoted to punishing Germany
    • The German people's morale was at an all time low
    • The depression took the German economy down with it
    • The German people's morale was at a new all time low
    • Communism had made its way west by the 30's
    • The two biggest political parties were the communists and the NSDAP
    • Hitler lost the election but Hindenburg allowed him to become chancellor
    • Hitler blamed the Reichstag fire on the communist party to help gain support for the NSDAP party
    • Hitler convinced President Hindenburg to sign a decree suspending individual and civil liberties, a decree Hitler used to silence his political enemies with false arrests.
    • Hitler eliminated the storm troopers who opposed his policies during the Night of Long Knives
    • Hitler had Ernst Roem executed
    • Hitler further consolidated his power by merging the presidency and the chancellorship
    • This would make Hitler commander of the army
    • A plebiscite vote was held on August 19
    • Hitler won by a 90 percent majority
    • At that point Hitler was dictator
    • Comparing the aforementioned events to UK leaving the EU makes no sense - the situation isn't even remotely similar
     
  16. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    The fuck man ... do you have some kind of brain damage or what is wrong with you?

    WHERE THE HELL DID I SAID THIS IS 100% COMPARABLE! FOR THE LAST TIME! NO ONE KNOWS WHAT MIGHT BE IN 20, 30 or 60 YEARS!

    Right wing populism is on the rise. How much does anyone of you know about the AfD in Germany? Our right wing populist party. And the discussion about how antisemitic some of their key members are. There is even a talk about investigations! Nowhere have I said we will have concentration camps tomorrow or something. But I don'T want to wake up in 40 years with laws and regulations that would be completely unthinkable today, just because the mindset of people has changed and we have right wing populists making the majority in the parliament. Constitutions and rights mean shit when the population doesn't support them and believe in those. But if more and more officials, police and members of the government would feel close to extemist views, than live will become very difficult for minorities and people who do not share a normal lifestyle. Like Homosexuals for example. I see what issues they have on the Balkan and Russia. How the press is treated in those nations. And Germany is not above all of those nations or so full of better people that it couldn't happen here as well.

    Dude, do you really read and understand what I and others write, or do you just read something into it? More than 60% of the people in Scotland voted for remain, while a majority somewhere else voted for leave. There is a chance that this referendum might split the UK. Have you ever heard about the term, a pyrrhic victory? You know what! I will give you that. It is a majority, of ALL the citizens in the UK. But I like to think about the implications of it, and not just getting blinded by, hur durr! 51% is still 1% majority! No one here denied the fact that this was a democratic election.
    However, Cameron is as much to blame for this whole mess as much as Nigel and Boris.

    Dude, cut it. You're not even a fucking European what the hell do you know about all the nuances that I have to see here? And I know racist bullshit when I see racist bullshit. The fact that some people suggar coat it in nice words doesn't change what it is. You know what? Nazis become more and more appealing in my opinion. At least they are upfront with their views and don't throw some bullshit at you, like "Yaah know! I am not a racist and I have (insert minority here) as friends even! But they do get quite often caught in crimes and make most of the inmates of jails etc!". Have you EVER had to deal with biggotry, racism, xenophobia or discrimination in your entire fucking live, be it for the sound of your name, your look or choice of lifestyle (like homosexuality?). Have you ever faced a situation, where you had to worry about your health maybe even your life? If not, than cut it with this, buuut, buuut, buuut we are not Hitler! I never said you're a Nazi. Just that some of their slurs become more and more common. I have had to experience it dude. It's not nice to be on the othe side.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
  17. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dogmeat

    Nov 22, 2009
    In US it's mostly been Trump with the hate and violence rhetoric. I guess you see no fault in him or his fans regardless what they do or say.

    Looks like it's ISIS behind the Turkey attack. I guess US shouldn't have attacked Iraq and then disbanded their military creating Al Queda of Iraq (a.k.a. ISIS) in the process.
     
  18. RoboStang

    RoboStang First time out of the vault

    69
    Jun 10, 2016
    Your uninformed assumptions are starting to piss me off. I see plenty of problems with Trump and his supporters. I'm a libertarian, so I'm very unhappy that a statist like Trump is now going to represent the GOP presidential bid. So far the only people Trump has screwed are conservatives (yes, conservatives, very different from neocons)

    That's the most childish statement I've seen on this site. You should be ashamed of yourself. I will no longer waste any of my time arguing with you.
     
  19. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    So? Scotland is a part of the UK. That's like saying a presidential election in the states is invalid because 60% of one of Texas voted against them. You don't get to suddenly act like Scotland is this totally separate entity now that it helps your side. Also, I thought you hated "nationalism" but now you've suddenly got this surge of "Scotland is separate! The rest of the UK shouldn't affect them!".
    Oh now this is rich. Notice how not once while you were arguing with me about Donald Trump (a UNITED STATES PRESIDENTIAL CANIDATE) did I pull the "You're not even a fucking American how the hell do you know" card? If I'm not allowed to talk about European politics because I'm an America then you're a hypocrite because you're a European who has done a whole lot of talking about American politics. As for your love of "nuances that I have to see here" In typical fashion you don't seemed to have picked up on something I've talked to you about in the past. ANECDOTAL stories do not equal EVIDENCE. Just because I've seen a 3 legged dog before doesn't mean "oh yea 3 legged dogs are normal". Which brings us to the next point:
    Actually yes I have you presumptuous asshole. I just don't have the extremely narrow world view to think that my personal life experiences are indicative of the world as a whole. Likewise I have no interest whining on the internet about what I've gone through in my life for pity points in a debate. How dare you imply that I've never had to deal with discrimination in my life, that you somehow know me and my life. I'm am very disappointed and insulted that you would try to drag this conversation into a game of "whose the most oppressed?".
     
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  20. DVL

    DVL Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    309
    Nov 19, 2015
    I'd feel this would be relevant if the rationale for Scotland leaving was based around racism or some cliched Braveheart thing screaming about "FREEEEEEDOM" or some other contrived mythology of the sort.

    Putting it simply, Scotland wouldn't just be leaving the UK, they'd be staying in the EU. Presumably the whole reason the Scotland stayed was for the economic benefits, which Britain can no longer offer them because Britain doesn't fucking export anything and has nothing but its trade agreements with the EU going for it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
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