A video on the Brexit and why the UK should leave.

Do you want Britain to Leave? Or to Stay?

  • Leave

    Votes: 23 47.9%
  • Stay

    Votes: 16 33.3%
  • I don't care...

    Votes: 9 18.8%

  • Total voters
    48
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"Tyrannical EU". My country Finland is not only in the EU but also in the EMU (monetary union) like many other nations. I just have difficulty figuring out the tyrannical part in us

There is a big movement of people who think the earth is flat and that planes leave chemtrails to mind control people, that should tell you enough about how susceptible a human mind can be, given the right circumstances.
 
Oh and AskWazzup did you see this,

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Because it was fine union based on rock solid international treaties we've signed after joining. The same treaties repeatedly ignored and deliberately broken by Germany and ECB recently, mind you. One example for you - check out article 125 in Treaty of Lisbon. Nobody shall be responsible for debts of any other member state in EU. Despite this, whole EU was forced to form Euro-Rettungsschirm in order to prevent Greek bankruptcy, with Slovakia participating in this deal by two billions euros in form of warranty. Do you know why? In order to protect German and French banks from terrible loss, since they own majority of Greek debt bonds.
I am sorry I have to tell this to you in such a blunt maner.
The 1950s won't come back. They are over. Times are changing. We can't make Slovakia or the UK great again. Where is this nostaliga coming from? It's almost as fun like to hear some in UK think that they will now make super awesome perfect deals with the rest of the world cuz, they are independed from the EU now ...

And at this point it doesn't even matter if we get rid of the EU or not. The issues, will be still there. I don't remember that anyone ever claimed the EU, how it works and what it does would be perfect. Far from it. ESM and ECB are heavily criticzed, and rightfully so! Imagine that! Democracy in the European Union. And you're precious Slovakia is not liable for the debts of other European members. Never saw you paying for Germanies or Greeces debt. It is simply a budged that the EU agreed upon to prevent the worst of the worst, which also helps to ensure some stability. Again NO ONE(!) said this would be perfect. But I am curious to hear the Valcikian alternative.

You know what? That's exactly what I'm trying to explain to you! I do agree, perhaps more than 60% of all Balkanian migrants are exactly such exploiters as you're painting them and they need to be deported, not allowed to abuse welfare system in any country. Since their countries are considered to be safe now, they don't have to run away from any dangers, right? Nevertheless:
http://www.dw.com/en/german-deportations-doubled-in-2015-huge-backlog-remains/a-18991566
„Some 37,200 migrants voluntarily left Germany after receiving financial assistance from the federal states, which are responsible for deportations, the Ministry added. Nearly 90 percent of those came from Albania, Kosovo, Serbia and other Western Balkan countries”, it said.
Except, I was talking about the so called EU-Osterweiterung not the Balkan states. A controversial debate where the media has thrown a tantrum around it 10 years ago about what ever if we should allow nations like Slovakia, Poland and other former Warsaw Pakt states to enter the EU. Where our yellow press and right wing nut jobs badmouthed all of the east european nations, yes even your precious Slovakia. And our nutjobs and populists made almost the exact same arguments about your people like they do now about refugees. Most of them are criminals! They are lazy! Their nations are communist ruins and it will take half a century of support to get them to our standard and they just want to get in to exploit the EU wellfare system, and so on and so on. And? What happend? We are still here and we havn't been overrun by the hordes of East Europeans.

And what surprise, there are still a few crazy voices in Germany that say your people and the other East Europeans killed the EU, still ignoring the advantages we got from it, like access to new markets.

Infact! You know what? You convinced me! Let us get rid from the EU, but don't come to Germany when Slovakia, Poland etc. have to suck Russian dicks in 20-25 years once we all returned to single states, with borders, quareling and fighting between each other while China, Russia and the US divide the world among themself.

Ah, you can't stomach your own medicine, I see. Rest assured that I didn't clap my hands happily under Soviet occupation either. Hint: think twice next time before you'll toss your childish assumption based insults on anyone. Shit might slap you back in no time.
At least I am not comparing my situation to those of Syrian refugees other others feeling warzones. Go and fight the big communist bear in that 1950s mind of yours.
 
It was a giant torrent of stuff he copied from somewhere that nobody will be able to address without spending way too much time.
That does not make it a Gish gallop.
He has genuine facts and information to back up his arguments, and you guys just throw out whatever emotional stuff seems to worry you out on the day.
That is why people stop arguing with you, because they come out with solid and good arguments, and you constantly back peddle, and write novels of shit that is totally baseless.
You say it is a straw-man. But context matters. A lot. Or you're sending a signal, that simply comes back to bite you.

You can be afraid, cautious, carefull all you want. It still doesn't chang the fact that we are talking about a highly complex topic.
It was a straw man since you were refuting arguments I had never put forward. Instead of actually addressing the real problem of extremist terrorism, you just waffled on about how to stop immigrants getting into America and Europe, how simply sick and tired you are of populists, and how I was painting all Muslims as dangerous.
To be honest you are the most guilty of a Gish Gallop because you write paragraphs of undecipherable blather and I haven't seen you cite any proper and believable facts or info yet.

PS: I don't have a problem with people who have spelling problems, but do you ignore the big red lines that go under them? I mean, do you not get these:
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/SPOILER]
I would appreciate it if you corrected your mistakes, because it is hard to read what you are saying because of your spelling.
 
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@MutantScalper:
There's cca 700.000 refugees in Ethiopia, whilst the country is receiving large yearly help from OECD, ranging from 215 to 880 millions USD in the last decade. I do agree though, they are in dire situation with almost ten millions of people endangered by food shortages and famine.

And our nutjobs and populists made almost the exact same arguments about your people like they do now about refugees. Most of them are criminals! They are lazy! Their nations are communist ruins and it will take half a century of support to get them to our standard and they just want to get in to exploit the EU wellfare system, and so on and so on. And? What happend?
Exactly what they've predicted happened. Tens of thousands criminals moved to all western countries from the east, yes from Slovakia too, that's why I had mentioned it in first place. Gypsies mostly, forming professional criminal gangs, smuggling drugs, running business with forced prostitution, forging birth certificates for fictional children by thousands.. You name it, they're milking host welfare system to no end. There are human trafficking gangs of them hunted down by Slovak, British, German, or French police:

http://www.thedaily.sk/uk-police-send-700-confiscated-passports-of-slovak-fraudsters/
http://spectator.sme.sk/c/20059641/...-roma-from-slovakia-of-human-trafficking.html

French folks are much smarter, they just removed any gypsy ghetto on perifery with bulldozers and deported them suckers back where they came from.

Seriously Crni, you seem to be disconnected from reality, common British folks are leaving for reason.
(Idomeni camp you were referring to doesn't exist anymore btw.)

Infact! You know what? You convinced me! Let us get rid from the EU, but don't come to Germany when Slovakia, Poland etc. have to suck Russian dicks in 20-25 years once we all returned to single states, with borders, quareling and fighting between each other while China, Russia and the US divide the world among themself.
Disintegration of EU doesn't mean the end for NATO treaties, mind you.
Last time I checked it was you who ran away from his homeland, not me. Don't worry, I won't come to Germany, with exception of tourism. Also, your attitude is very childish, since constructive criticism is the very first step on improving things, not destroying them. Hint: I'm all for improving EU actually.
 
So far I havn't seen any real criticism from you and no real solution to the issues we're discussing. Except, if you believe that no one ever before you had those glorious ideas, which sadly ignore the reality, but that just by the way ...
 
So far I havn't seen any real criticism from you and no real solution to the issues we're discussing. Except, if you believe that no one ever before you had those glorious ideas, which sadly ignore the reality, but that just by the way ...
At least we use facts, statistics and sources instead of writing pages and pages of things that are either irrelevant, unproven or our opinions.
 
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At least we use facts, statistics and sources instead of writing pages and pages of things that are either irrelevant, unproven or our opinions.
Buxie said it best so far.
Haha, "arguments". Nice 5,276-word gish gallop, 10/10.
*shrugs*

Like I or anyone here has ever questioned a statistic. Do I have to post the wikipedia article again about black people in US prisons?

The conclusion is what matters to me. Statistics for them self, tell us nothing. I for example see people with a lot of serious problems. Or do you think that Syrians or Africans are inferior to the Westeuropean?

Seriously, why do you people have such big angst from refugees and all that. Had anything that happend in the last 2-3 years a serious LIFETHREATENING effect on you or has it severely limited you in your daily lifes? Like a refugee trying to rape you? Or to kill you? I am genuely curious. Concerns are one thing, but either we accept that the world is a dangerous place and that populism and words will get us nowhere, or we start to build our Festung Europa - which won't protect us anyway, but hey! At least the people making the fences will earn a nice buck.
I am not sure if this has english subtitles:


Festung_Europa.jpg



You know, I can imagine how those things work. Someone, somewhere in a huge office is looking at those statistics, just like you. And since we can't shot them, and drowning them hasn't worked so far, and the nations we pay to keep them are corrupt as fuck, we build fences that don't do shit.
 
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Really? I give up, ask your fellow countrymen:
Yes really, because it boils down to, keep them at the borders and build more fences, and that is more or less what we're doing already. But you're not thinking this trough. If the solution was as easy like your suggestion, than we would have solved this issue already a long time ago. How do you plan to keep those people in the camps without the necessary force and violence? That's why Europe is outsoursing this issue to nations like Turkey. Because when they shoot the refugees, than it's not our problem, and we can call them all sorts of names for doing it. It's a very very ugly game that the European Union is playing here - Hey! Look at that! I am criticising the EU!

Again, I have yet to hear one good alternative to all of this that works without violence. And the plane truth, there isn't. Not unless we actually fight the reasons why the people flee and migrate to Europe. Like poverty and wars.

Back to something more interesting:
*Edit
Festung Europa! Those are dire times for the true Europeans! But worry not, oh patriots of the Abendland! Our glorious leaders, relentlessly defending Festung Europa and working for a better future, know exactly what to do. They had weeks, months some even years to plan for this. They surely must have a plan! Or do they? No? Rubbish ... rubbish ...
 
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@MutantScalper:
There's cca 700.000 refugees in Ethiopia, whilst the country is receiving large yearly help from OECD, ranging from 215 to 880 millions USD in the last decade. I do agree though, they are in dire situation with almost ten millions of people endangered by food shortages and famine.

I didn't mean they have millions of refugees at this moment, I meant they've had millions of refugees over the years, and they've had a large number of refugees for a long time. And yes they get aid, afaik the EU countries that receive refugees also get money from the EU. Kenya another poor country, has about 600 k refugees.
 
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Yes really, because it boils down to, keep them at the borders and build more fences, and that is more or less what we're doing already.
No, it does not. Why are you fixated on your „build more fences” mantra so hard?


But you're not thinking this trough. [..] How do you plan to keep those people in the camps without the necessary force and violence? That's why Europe is outsoursing this issue to nations like Turkey. Because when they shoot the refugees, than it's not our problem, and we can call them all sorts of names for doing it.
By deporting anyone who would illegally slip in EU back to the designated hot-spot area perhaps? Just in the same manner as we're doing it with these refugees coming illegally from Turkey now, according to deal signed by frau Merkel. Refugees are well informed nowadays, a couple of them would try to pay smugglers and slip in for sure, risking their lives just to be send back where they came from without their lifesavings spend on traffickers. Meanwhile the other folks would see that all they need is waiting for airlift taking them right to the paradise! With a slight difference of course - with refugee camps financed and maintained by EU you don't have to pay any moslem sultan to do your dirty work, directly supporting his authoritarian regime this way. Also, these billions the refugees have paid for traffickers are supporting the gray economy in Turkey, raising criminality and whatnot. The deal proposed by V4 sounds more humane to me, and not only to me, since you can hear the same voices from Austria and other countries too. It's your rhetoric trying to force German immigration policy to all member states against their will by changing legislative on the run what hurts EU actually. It's people as you who haven't thought it through actually, repeating your „hurr-durr fences! Tyrannical EU!” wannabe sarcastic jokes instead.

The truth is - EU can't take every refugee in need right now, since there's too much people on the run in very short time span. That's why we have dirty deals with such men as Erdogan in the first place.

It's a very very ugly game that the European Union is playing here - Hey! Look at that! I am criticising the EU!
Good, I'm all for critical thinking.
 
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No, it does not. Why are you fixated on your „build more fences” mantra so hard?
Because that is what we're doing and it isn't very effective, and you're idea of "round them all up" would end up in the same direction. How else do you keep people fleeing from wars with the intention to migrate to Europe in one spot? By asking them nicely?

By deporting anyone who would illegally slip in EU back to the designated hot-spot area perhaps? Just in the same manner as we're doing it with these refugees coming illegally from Turkey now, according to deal signed by frau Merkel.
That works if you have relatively small numbers and groups. But as we saw in the past, this helps not much if you're not ready to use force. Like Turkey does now. It is a pipe dream to believe we could solve the issue like that in the long run.

It's your rhetoric trying to force German immigration policy to all member states against their will by changing legislative on the run what hurts EU actually.
No, my opinion is that we should fight the reasons why those people want to migrate to Europe, and not doing the same thing we did for the last 20 years, which apparantly isn't very effective. But this would be much more dificult than building fences. But as long as France, the UK and particularly the US are messing around with the politics of foreign nations and making shitty deals with some, Europe has to deal with the effects of their politics.

*Edit
What we should really do, in my opinion.

We should start to make fair economic deals with African states, which don't just benefit European nations and undermine the effort of the more democratic nations in Africa trying to improve their economy. The Economic Partnership Agreement in particular has done a lot of damage. Opening African states with an underdeveloped industry to the European Market, we allow our highly industrialzed economy to flood their single markets with goods that are much cheaper than their domestic products. Particularly the agriculture in those areas is suffering a lot from this, destroying the basis of existence for thousands. Which than decide to migrate eventually to Europe.

We should reduce our production and selling of arms. Particularly into the middle east. The UK, Germany and France are among the top dealers with weapons. Infact, among the biggest 5. And we have to get that message across to the US, Russia and also China. Those weapons fall often into the hands of rebells, terrorists, fanatics and other questionable groups, fueling wars and conflicts all across the world. It is impossible to make sure that the equipment we sell, doesn't end up in the hands of the wrong people. It happens already today.

We have to stop meddling in the affairs and politics of other nations, this includes also Dicatorships, of which many saw support by us in the past. Like Lybia, Syria, Iraq and many more. Particularly the drone strikes which are increasing, show little effect and do a lot of damage to civlians. There is no doubt that the actions in Iraq after 2001, and our interventions in Lybia and Syria created a situation that allowed groups like ISIS to emerge, finding a basis for their growing and radicalism. The power vacuum that we created was exploited by all kinds of radical groups. While we oviously are not the sole reason for this to happen, the biggest offenders are obvoiusly the dictators which opressed their people for centuries. But the actions of Europe and the US played a very important role in the destabilizing of the region and in fueling the hate against the west.

And last but not least, we have to finally act against the growing right wing populism in Europe that is proposing easy and fast solutions to highly complex and decade old issues. They will do in the long run, far more damage to Europe and any work that is trying to improve the situation, undermining the political and economical work that is done here and destabilizing Europe. As we can see it right now with the UK.
 
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