A video on the Brexit and why the UK should leave.

[valcik]

(post)

I object to mismatched quote in this post! It's Doomsdayprepper who wrote it, not me.
*points finger at Doomsdayprepper*

Besides, you are wrong:

I am simply sick of it. I am tired of it. And it's getting boring. It's the same shit in every political debate, rally or discussion you see with right wing populism where they constantly hammer down on how terrible, dangerous and little values Islam/Moslems share with Europe. But when you ask them what should be done about it, things look different. Beacuse many remain silent or pussyfoot around it. Yes, let us bann headscarves! That will show em! Rarw! Look how dangerous Europe is. Either you're ready to actually get in a war with billions of people and a religion as whole, or all of this has zero meaning.

By closing your borders or by regulating immigration in your country you don't declare war on anyone. Australia would be in some really hard fight right now otherwise.

 

[Crni Vuk]

How do you do it effectively? I am surprised no one ever in human history came up with that idea before ... just close the borders and regulate immigration. A reasonable suggestion I guess. But you have to think this also trough.
You also understand that people will go somewhere, right? Just as how they do ... now. They will be stuck in Africa, or well, where the borders of nations like the UK or the EU begin. And we leave nations like Tunisia, Egypt, Turkey and their neighbours to deal with the problem. Just as how we left Italy, Greece and Spain alone for decades. And, in the end they will come crying to us, why Europe is such a dick closing it's borders. And we end up with political problems, tensions, paying them millions - just like we do with Turkey and Sudan, to deal with the issue ... while not solving anything in the end. The people are still there.

I thought this was about solutions? It also doesn't answer what we do with the migrants we have already here.

You can not effectivelly stop migration unless you're ready to shoot people. Or, they will not come in small groups, they will come with five thousand, ten thousand or even hundred thousand people. Just as how they did. And now it stoped, beacuse we pay a shit ton of money, so others can do the policing for us.

If you decide to close the borders, than you have to face the reality that you have to defend those as well. Or it's simply meaningless. Which means, you have to decide if you use every force that is available to stop them.
Easy to say this when when we talk about Nazis that want to cross your border with tanks. But not so easy anymore when its just unarmed people, and I think around 30% of the refugees are children and teenagers. If I remember correctly.

I repeat. We are talking about people here. Not cattle. They won't stand like cows at our borders and looking at our nice fences, walls or what ever, shrug and return the thousands of miles and years they have spend to get here.

 

[valcik]

You also understand that people will go somewhere, right?

Yes, I do. Packing up his things and moving towards first country with open borders, generous enough welfare system, and willkommenskultur, would be the only reasonable thing you could expect from any human in war torn country. The more open and generous you are, the more folks will come in. There's cca 350 millions of refugees in Africa alone right now, so what would you propose? Take them in? There has to be some reasonable limit, wouldn't you agree?

They will be stuck in Africa, or well, where the borders of nations like the UK or the EU begin. And we leave nations like Tunisia, Egypt, Turkey and their neighbours to deal with the problem. Just as how we left Italy, Greece and Spain alone for decades. And, in the end they will come crying to us, why Europe is such a dick closing it's borders.

First of all, not a single refugee would try to step on Greek soil when all the free roads to Berlin will be shut down, see the recent closing of Macedonian borders for example. Those millions of refugees have been invited by frau Merkel when borders were wide open, so they just risked their lives and took the ride with human traffickers. Shut down the borders, tell them that there are not any free money anymore, and voila! Nobody would risk his life and lifesavings to get in Greece or Italy without any perspective to continue towards Germany or Sweden.

And we end up with political problems, tensions, paying them millions - just like we do with Turkey and Sudan, to deal with the issue ...

Yup, that's deal signed by frau Merkel. For starters, who gave her such mandate? She, as a German chancelor, doesn't have any competence for such deals covering whole EU. That's what we have Federica Mogherini in European parliament for, isn't it? Also, this deal is nothing but hypocrisy - shooting at immigrants is strongly against European values, so let's make deal with Turkey! Instead of us, filthy Turks would shoot refugees down, that's the best way how to protect European values˜™ alright!

I thought this was about solutions? It also doesn't answer what we do with the migrants we have already here.

Solution - stop inviting them, stop giving them free money, and make them fully responsible for their crimes according to our laws without any exception.

Or, they will not come in small groups, they will come with five thousand, ten thousand or even hundred thousand people.

Do you really think that one million of Poles would grab guns and storm British borders now, when they are not allowed to enter the British labour market as they were used to? Nah.

I repeat. We are talking about people here. Not cattle. They won't stand like cows at our borders and looking at our nice fences, walls or what ever, shrug and return the thousands of miles and years they have spend to get here.

It's not German soil they're eager to stand on, it's not German people they're eager to make friends of either what drives them in. It's our welfare system, open door immigration policy, and frau Merkel herself with her open invitations. Also, those immigrants are not cattle, but they don't behave as a human beings either. In 60-70% cases they're lying about their age, country of origin, possessions, education, criminal records, everything. The sad fact is that majority of them is coming here to abuse your generosity, not to make you their new friend.

 

[Throatpunch]

It transpires after protesting about violent terrorism I am a evil racist who wants excessive border control and paints all people in religions with the same brush, and I should go to stormfront.

What matters is the context. Yes, context plays a very important role. I don't attack someone for saying that Islam is a religion with many issues. Neither would I attack someone for stating that (...) Approximately 12–13% of the American population is African-American, but they make up 35% of jail inmates.
The question is to what conclussions we come, what opinions we form from it. Why did he mentioned all that stuff about Muslism? To get me to admit, that yes religion can be a reason for a lot of shit in this world? Big deal.

I don't know how often I have to repeat my self. No one. Absolutely fucking no one here said those cases or african imigrants selling drugs, comiting crimes or making trouble don't exist. No one ever said that all refugees, muslims or imigrants would be awesome people.

But what I don't understand, why this always boils down to, hey! Look! See those Muslims are really really really terrible people and their religion is one of violence! Who is this helping? Who? And more importantly, what is the conclusion. Ok. YOu guys win. All muslims are potentially dangerous. Ok. What should we do next? What are we going to do with this information now.

I am simply sick of it. I am tired of it. And it's getting boring. It's the same shit in every political debate, rally or discussion you see with right wing populism where they constantly hammer down on how terrible, dangerous and little values Islam/Moslems share with Europe. But when you ask them what should be done about it, things look different. Beacuse many remain silent or pussyfoot around it. Yes, let us bann headscarves! That will show em! Rarw! Look how dangerous Europe is. Either you're ready to actually get in a war with billions of people and a religion as whole, or all of this has zero meaning.

Even IF we would all here agree now, for some reason, that 1,6 billion muslims, roughly 23% of the worlds population, would be potentially dangerous, what are we now supposed to do about it? Should we stop any muslims from imigrating to Europe and the US? How can this be effectively done? Fences? Walls? And what if 10, 20 or 100 thousand refugees want to cross them? And more importantly, what should we do with the muslims we already have in the US and Europe? Should we maybe ban and close down all mosques? Should we make special laws just for Islam? Should we invent some census and sign for those that are muslims?
When ever questions, like what we should do or at which point a muslim is integreated, are brought to people like Frauke Petry, the prominent face of the AfD, her answer is, no no no! We don't want to infringe on the rights of the people!? THEN WHAT THE FUCK IS THE POINT OF PAINTING ALL MUSLIMS AS DANGEROUS AND HAMMERING DOWN ON THE FACT THAT IT DOESN'T BELONG TO EUROPE. At which point has someone from us demanded that Islam should become the state religion? Or that the Shariah would be awesome.

We are talking about people here, real people. And not cattle.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Oh boy. OKIES! let us talk Realpolitik. And how can I argue against reality, or I don't give a fuck about human nature.

Yes, I do. Packing up his things and moving towards first country with open borders, generous enough welfare system, and willkommenskultur, would be the only reasonable thing you could expect from any human in war torn country. The more open and generous you are, the more folks will come in.

I never said that I denny any of those claims. But so far, it's just rhetoric. I thought we agreed both that:
Packing up his things and moving towards first country (...) would be the only reasonable thing you could expect from any human in war torn country.
Those people would come either way. What ever if we keep up a willkommenskultur or not. - By the way, I never said that I approve of this hypocritical everyone is wellcome nosense, but that's a different story. But we just agreed that it is more or less a case of stay and die, or pack your stuff and maybe? Probably? Die. So as long as we don't outright kill those people or threaten to kill them, they will still pack their stuff. Just to tell em in a nice way, Ey! We don't want you gypsis here! Won't do much. The German government has already programms doing exactly that with refugees from the Balkan. There is even a nice little movie about it.


It's not very effective. People still came in masses. Or well they tried it.

I have yet to hear a real and good solution to the refugee problem. Without violence of course. Closing borders, building fences and changing our rhetoric won't do shit. As long as people see even a chance to start a new life here with prosperity, they will try it.

We have to fight the reasons why people flee. Not the people. But apparantly for some this means only fighting the traffickers ...

There's cca 350 millions of refugees in Africa alone right now, so what would you propose? Take them in?

Never said that. By the way, not all of them come to Europe.

There has to be some reasonable limit, wouldn't you agree?

How do you protect this reasonable limit of yours? Again, I see people talking about it. It was a common theme here with some right wing populists. And sometimes they throw around some random numbers, like as it would mean something. But no one is really clear on what you should do when that limit is reached. It's all very vague. We can set this to some arbitrary number, like 200 000, 500 000 or 1 milion. What will we do if suddenly 1,5 million show up on our borders? How do you keep the other 500 000 ones out? When it boils down to life or death situations for those refugees. Throw them at Turkey? Best with a couple of million euros, so they actually keep them and do what we don't, keeping them there by force, if necessary. I mean we are civiliced. We don't use violence. We outsource it.

First of all, not a single refugee would try to step on Greek soil when all the free roads to Berlin will be shut down, see the recent closing of Macedonian borders for example.

Yes. It's much better if they are someone elses problem. That way we can keep the problem out, and we can bad mouth Greece why they treat those refugees so badly. A win win situation.
http://www.spiegel.de/international...s-and-fails-to-protect-people-a-989502-3.html

Those millions of refugees have been invited by frau Merkel when borders were wide open, so they just risked their lives and took the ride with human traffickers.

Right. Merkel was it. And not the dire situation in Syra, Africa etc. How comes that Merkel invited them even though most of those refugees started their journey years before Merkel even came up with any kind of plan. Ah yes. The Famous Merkeltime - You can't touch this!, Where she can contact people trough time and space I guess.

Strange how nothing of this bothered us really when we needed Turkish workers in the 60s. Or when this was actually a problem of Greece and Italy for decades. And when they say, guys, we can't take it anymore, and they flood the gates of the UK, France and Germany, we have to act or the Abendland will crash. We are right now dealing with problems that started a decade ago, at the very least in 2001. And the nations on the European borders simply can't take it anymore after decades of ignoring the issue, that's the cold hard truth. And the richest European nations on top of the food chain, now feel the effects too.

Nobody would risk his life and lifesavings to get in Greece or Italy without any perspective to continue towards Germany or Sweden.

Hmm. Either I forcely serve in the Eritrean army, with a very high chance to get killed for a dictator, maybe even tortured. Or I try my luck at the European borders, where they just tell me to turn back. That should do the trick. Do you think those people look like they give a fuck about changes in our rhetoric?

As long as we don't shoot them, they will continue to come.

Realistically speaking, the only way how we could actually, protect our borders, is trough the only way that has proven to be somewhat efficient in history.

And that is, simply put. Violence. Force. If you tell people that you will kill them if they dare to cross the Border. Ask the Soviets. It doesn't matter how bad the situation was in Poland, East Germany and the other east block states. And it was definetly bad enough that people started a revolt sometimes, fighting tanks with barely any weapons. But the normal people didn't try to cross the borders in masses, because simply put the guards would shoot them. That simple. And yet, some people still tried it. And died.

I repeat my self:
I have yet to hear a real and good solution to the refugee problem. Without violence of course. Closing borders, building fences and changing our rhetoric won't do shit. As long as people see even a chance to start a new life here with prosperity, they will try it.

We have to fight the reasons why people flee. Not the people. But apparantly for some this means only fighting the traffickers ...

Yup, that's deal signed by frau Merkel. For starters, who gave her such mandate? She, as a German chancelor, doesn't have any competence for such deals covering whole EU.

Obviously Merkels powers as Fuhrer of the Deutsche Union, havn't you seen the EuroSS and GEUstapo troops forcing all of those poor little European nations taking refugees in? Our masterplan that started at 1914 is finally working. This time we Germans are crushing Europe with kindness, peace and unity!


I guess it's another one those cases where the oh so evil tyranical Eu is to blame. It seems they can't do anything right. If they keep refugees away, HOW CAN THE EU MAKE A DEAL IN OUR NAME! If the EU does nothing. FUCKING EU! WHAT HAVE THEY EVER DONE FOR US! THEY LEAVE US COMPLETELY ALONE WITH OUR PROBLEMS!
Very convenient, a scape goat I mean. Infact, no EU would be even good for Germany. That way Greece, Romania etc. and all the other nations between France/Germany/UK and the borders of the European continent can go suck dick when millions of refugees try to enter their borders.

Solution - stop inviting them

See above. They would still come.

stop giving them free money

They are getting very little money, if any at all. They get less money than a German would when he falls under wellfare.

and make them fully responsible for their crimes according to our laws without any exception.

We do. A refugee who's comitting crimes will be punished acording to our laws.

Do you really think that one million of Poles would grab guns and storm British borders now, when they are not allowed to enter the British labour market as they were used to? Nah.

Those poles are already in the UK, as far as I know.

Also, those immigrants are not cattle, but they don't behave as a human beings either. In 60-70% cases they're lying about their age, country of origin, possessions, education, criminal records, everything. The sad fact is that majority of them is coming here to abuse your generosity, not to make you their new friend.

Ah right! Those are not real humans already ... I see. Of course most of them come here for gaining wealth. That IS normal human behaviour. But I am glad that we have patriotic people like you, fighting for what is right and just I guess.

It transpires after protesting about violent terrorism I am a evil racist who wants excessive border control and paints all people in religions with the same brush, and I should go to stormfront.

The problem is, that tightening security, controll and fences hasn't to lead necessarily to an improvement in safety.
Ask Israel how effective their policiy has been in the last decades with terrorism. Has their wall protected them? What about the RAF in Germany? Or the IRA and the UK.

If sabre-rattling, barbed wire, and military/police forces and other barriers could disrupt terrorism, this war would have been won long ago.

View attachment 4153

You say it is a straw-man. But context matters. A lot. Or you're sending a signal, that simply comes back to bite you.

You can be afraid, cautious, carefull all you want. It still doesn't chang the fact that we are talking about a highly complex topic.

 

[valcik]

Okay Crni, my last post in this insane quote war:

I have yet to hear a real and good solution to the refugee problem. Without violence of course.

Such one was proposed couple of years ago by V4 actually. We can create safe zones with hot-spots on African coast or Turkis/Syrian borders, build refugee camps here, and provide millions of young males with clothes, food, and water. Any person should undergo security screening before going to any European country, with reasonable year limits set in order to properly integrate small amounts of refugees in their target country.

Closing borders, building fences and changing our rhetoric won't do shit. As long as people see even a chance to start a new life here with prosperity, they will try it.

You can't see hundreds of thousands illegals crossing Schengen area anymore, after closing the Balkanian route and Macedonian border effectively, can you?

We have to fight the reasons why people flee. Not the people.

Why shall we? Wouldn't be wiser to help them so they can fight those reasons for themselves instead?

It was a common theme here with some right wing populists. And sometimes they throw around some random numbers, like as it would mean something.

Frankly, I don't care how you spend you free time Crni, listen freely to right wing populist if you wish. Is this argument relevant somehow?

What will we do if suddenly 1,5 million show up on our borders?

Mentioned above. We need safe zones and hot-spots close to the war zones, with a reasonable number of refugees per year transported into EU after they'll undergo all the mandatory procedures - medical examinations, vaccination, security screening etc. Any other person showing up on our borders would be sent back, or deported if they'll manage to slip in illegaly.

Yes. It's much better if they are someone elses problem. That way we can keep the problem out, and we can bad mouth Greece why they treat those refugees so badly. A win win situation.

Look at how many of these refugees actually asked for asylum in Greece. They are heading for Germany, that's why they're coming here in the first place, so if there's anyone to blame for in this mess it's immigration policy of your own country, pushed forward by CDU and frau Merkel.

Right. Merkel was it. And not the dire situation in Syra, Africa etc. How comes that Merkel invited them even though most of those refugees started their journey years before Merkel even came up with any kind of plan. Ah yes. The Famous Merkeltime - You can't touch this!, Where she can contact people trough time and space I guess.

Frau Merkel as a present German chancelor is the only person responsible for current German immigration policy, isn't it? Also, I had explained before how she overcome her competences by signing refugee related deals covering whole EU, which is not her job at all. That's what we have High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy in European parliament for. You can toss sarcastic jokes all day long if you wish, I'd rather read some reasonable argument from you why she did repeatedly broke parliamentary hierarchy and official EU rules.

Strange how nothing of this bothered us really when we needed Turkish workers in the 60s.

Slovakia? Turkish workers? Give me a break please, we don't have any of those here. You need them? Fine! You've invited them? Fine! Why should I care? Form your own economy as you wish and get any gastarbeiter you need, just don't try to make someone else responsible for German needs, will you please?

Hmm. Either I forcely serve in the Eritrean army, with a very high chance to get killed for a dictator, maybe even tortured. Or I try my luck at the European borders, where they just tell me to turn back. That should do the trick. Do you think those people look like they give a fuck about changes in our rhetoric?

Oh yes, I do! Perhaps those hundreds of millions young African males fleeing from former guerilla forces or armies would rethink and try to fight the dictators on their own if we'd have told them that there are not any free money and open borders in EU anymore, who knows?

And that is, simply put. Violence. Force. If you tell people that you will kill them if they dare to cross the Border. Ask the Soviets.

I don't need to ask anyone, lived through it myself. Since I'm member of Slovak army reserve forces, as majority of Slovak men undergoing compulsory military service under Soviet occupation, the concept of protecting my own country is not completely alienated to me. And guess what? Juncker is trying to push legislative for creating united European armed forces in EU right now, so perhaps he came to the same conclusion as you. We'll see.

I repeat my self:
I have yet to hear a real and good solution to the refugee problem. Without violence of course.

Already answered, check above. I won't repeat myself.

Obviously Merkels powers as Fuhrer of the Deutsche Union, havn't you seen the EuroSS and GEUstapo troops forcing all of those poor little European nations taking refugees in? Our masterplan that started at 1914 is finally working. This time we Germans are crushing Europe with kindness, peace and unity!
[MEDIA]HMQkV5cTuoY[/MEDIA]

Sorry, too tired to appreciate this sort of humor right now. Thanks anyway.

Very convenient, a scape goat I mean. Infact, no EU would be even good for Germany. That way Greece, Romania etc. and all the other nations between France/Germany/UK and the borders of the European continent can go suck dick when millions of refugees try to enter their borders.

What? Perhaps I'm misunderstaning something right now. You mean millions of refugees endangered by oh-so-terrible wars, heading to Germany, France, UK, and Sweden as a flies lured by lamp in the night, without asking for asylum in any safe country with poor welfare system they're passing through? We'll just let them through, why should we stop them dude?

See above. They would still come.

See above. As long as you'll provide them with free money, food, clothes, and wi-fi signal. The'd be stupid for not coming under such circumstances.

They are getting very little money, if any at all. They get less money than a German would when he falls under wellfare.

Still much more than any Slovak working for minimal wage in his own country. Do you actually realize how much is it for any third-worlder used to living by a handful of rice or peanuts?

Of course most of them come here for gaining wealth. That IS normal human behaviour. But I am glad that we have patriotic people like you, fighting for what is right and just I guess.

Well, perhaps I'm not a normal human according by your definition, since I won't move from my homeland to any rich European country, despite free movement granted by Schengen area. Thanks for the compliment anyway, I can't tell that I appreciate metropolitan fair-weather citizens such as you in the same way as you do, though.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Well, perhaps I'm not a normal human according by your definition, since I won't move from my homeland to any rich European country, despite free movement granted by Schengen area. Thanks for the compliment anyway, I can't tell that I appreciate metropolitan fair-weather citizens such as you in the same way as you do, though.

Umm what? You realize they're coming from places torn apart by war, insurgencies, poor economic conditions and poverty. They need to move if they want to get fair living conditions, and yet you're comparing your life with theirs and saying how you don't have to move?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Such one was proposed couple of years ago by V4 actually. We can create safe zones with hot-spots on African coast or Turkis/Syrian borders, build refugee camps here, and provide millions of young males with clothes, food, and water. Any person should undergo security screening before going to any European country, with reasonable year limits set in order to properly integrate small amounts of refugees in their target country.

Most of the refugees actually sit at the borders to their homelands. In the case of Syria and the war, Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan have taken the most refugees, if I can trust google. But yeah, it sounds so super easy the way how you describe it. Just throw money at it till the crysis is over. Just to hear by all those patriotic europeans how shitty the EU is for well ... throwing money at them. Let us ignore that most of those nations you named are full of corrupt politicans and criminal organisations that they are instable and that you actually need qualified people to do the job down there. This is the problem with scape goats, it doesn't matter what we do here, it will always be wrong. If we do something. Europe sucks! If we do nothing. Europe sucks!

You can't see hundreds of thousands illegals crossing Schengen area anymore, after closing the Balkanian route and Macedonian border effectively, can you?

Yeah, because those people have been stuck in Idomeni. That's of course a much better solution. It's someones else problem now. Just like always. And than in a couple of years, we wonder why so many people actually hate us ... this issue is far from over. It comes again, and again and again ... just like there would be a pattern behind it ...

Why shall we? Wouldn't be wiser to help them so they can fight those reasons for themselves instead?

Because the UK, France and Germany are among the biggest dealers in arms. Because we constantly screw around with foreign nations, either economically, politically or with military interventions. US Drone strikes alone seem to hit 90% of inocent people, if we can believe google. Who knows how many civlians have been killed by the bombings from France so far, there are no accurate numbers on casualties in ISIS controlled teritory. And I won't even go in to all that shit that US and EU companies cause in third world countries, like the trade agreements we forced on African states.

Kenya is among the countries that refused to sign. In response, the EU imposed import tariffs on multiple Kenyan products effective from 1 October. Media has reported that the measure led to numerous layoffs in several African firms.


Under this pressure, Nairobi finally snapped two weeks ago, and added its signature to the trade agreement.
(...)

Sorry if I think that we should be a bit more responsible with our actions.

Frankly, I don't care how you spend you free time Crni, listen freely to right wing populist if you wish. Is this argument relevant somehow?

I take a keen interest in the politics of my nation.

Mentioned above. We need safe zones and hot-spots close to the war zones, with a reasonable number of refugees per year transported into EU after they'll undergo all the mandatory procedures - medical examinations, vaccination, security screening etc. Any other person showing up on our borders would be sent back, or deported if they'll manage to slip in illegaly.

Just to add this, we still have to decide how to defend said borders when people decide to cross it. I will be blunt. Do you think we should shoot them?

Look at how many of these refugees actually asked for asylum in Greece. They are heading for Germany, that's why they're coming here in the first place, so if there's anyone to blame for in this mess it's immigration policy of your own country, pushed forward by CDU and frau Merkel.

Why does this concern you when they move to Germany? Germany is one of the richest nations in the world, so far we are doing ok. We are still here. We havn't been overun yet. And we havn't adobted Shariah law yet. I personaly will soon work with refugees to do my part. Obviously it's not perfect, but things are improving.

Frau Merkel as a present German chancelor is the only person responsible for current German immigration policy, isn't it? Also, I had explained before how she overcome her competences by signing refugee related deals covering whole EU, which is not her job at all. That's what we have High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy in European parliament for. You can toss sarcastic jokes all day long if you wish, I'd rather read some reasonable argument from you why she did repeatedly broke parliamentary hierarchy and official EU rules.

It's a bit more complicated than that, just as in your nation I guess, unless your president has absolute power in everything he does. Germany is still a democracy and our Fuhrer Merkel has not THAT much power that she alone can decide to let millions of people in. The reality simply is. We had no other choice. It was either we take them, or well ... can you spell humanitarian catastrophe?

Slovakia? Turkish workers? Give me a break please, we don't have any of those here. You need them? Fine! You've invited them? Fine! Why should I care? Form your own economy as you wish and get any gastarbeiter you need, just don't try to make someone else responsible for German needs, will you please?

That's actually what I am asking my self as well. Why do you care how many refugees WE take? By the way, many Slovakian people come here to work as well. Thx to Shengen. Thx to Europe. Maybe we should close the Border to Slovakia? Why the fuck should Germany pay for you? Maybe we should even get rid from this whole Eu and Shengen stuff, you're right. All the Slovakian workers have to return to their homeland. Get work there!
Just as a small hint, this was sarcasm.

Oh yes, I do! Perhaps those hundreds of millions young African males fleeing from former guerilla forces or armies would rethink and try to fight the dictators on their own if we'd have told them that there are not any free money and open borders in EU anymore, who knows?

Right. That only sounds awesome on paper. Worked so well for your people against the Soviets, didn't it? Man! Fighting for indepence, with a rifle in your hand, and a patriotic song on your lips. Sounds always so awesome. Some of us need a reality check sometimes I guess.

I don't need to ask anyone, lived through it myself. Since I'm member of Slovak army reserve forces, as majority of Slovak men undergoing compulsory military service under Soviet occupation, the concept of protecting my own country is not completely alienated to me. And guess what? Juncker is trying to push legislative for creating united European armed forces in EU right now, so perhaps he came to the same conclusion as you. We'll see.

Have you been one of those men undergoing compulsory military service with the task to eventually shoot at your own population if they wanted to leave your nation?

What? Perhaps I'm misunderstaning something right now. You mean millions of refugees endangered by oh-so-terrible wars, heading to Germany, France, UK, and Sweden as a flies lured by lamp in the night, without asking for asylum in any safe country with poor welfare system they're passing through? We'll just let them through, why should we stop them dude?

Why should we accept them from you? This goes both ways dude ...

See above. As long as you'll provide them with free money, food, clothes, and wi-fi signal. The'd be stupid for not coming under such circumstances.

Those evil evil Germans! Treating people like human beeings.

Still much more than any Slovak working for minimal wage in his own country. Do you actually realize how much is it for any third-worlder used to living by a handful of rice or peanuts?

It's not like they all sit around doing nothing you know. There is a lot of education going on. Refugees here have some responsibilites. For example their movement is restricted, they learn the German language and a lot of other things.

 

[Hassknecht]

Packing up his things and moving towards first country (...) would be the only reasonable thing you could expect from any human in war torn country.
Those people would come either way.

But across continents through several peaceful countries along the way? That's not fleeing from war, that's migration. Which is fine, don't get me wrong, but I wish people would stop appealing to emotions for refugees when it's not really all that applicable anymore.

 

[DarkCorp]

I think what some above are saying is that certain countries get more refugees because they simply offer MORE. Why stay in cash strapped Greece who can provide bare minimum when you can go to Germany which offers twice or three times more than what Greece was willing to offer? It is human nature to go where the best deals are, period.

It is like the problem of the homeless, crime and poverty here in the states. New York, California, Washington, these states are among the most liberal in the country and for a while now, have had huge problems with homelessness and violent crime. When your state enacts policies that make it harder for the police to enforce laws, policies that are pro-homeless, then you are logically going to get an influx of homeless and criminals.

When we passed the now useless SB1070 law, tons of illegals fled the state to Texas or California, states where immigration enforcement is not as strong and advocacy groups have much more power.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I think what some above are saying is that certain countries get more refugees because they simply offer MORE. Why stay in cash strapped Greece who can provide bare minimum when you can go to Germany which offers twice or three times more than what Greece was willing to offer? It is human nature to go where the best deals are, period.

It is like the problem of the homeless, crime and poverty here in the states. New York, California, Washington, these states are among the most liberal in the country and for a while now, have had huge problems with homelessness and violent crime. When your state enacts policies that make it harder for the police to enforce laws, policies that are pro-homeless, then you are logically going to get an influx of homeless and criminals.

When we passed the now useless SB1070 law, tons of illegals fled the state to Texas or California, states where immigration enforcement is not as strong and advocacy groups have much more power.

Solving people's problems make troubled people go to the area and make it a bigger problem?

Stop solving the problem!

 

[valcik]

Why does this concern you when they move to Germany?

I don't care about folks moving to Germany. It's European legislative forced upon us with shaddy tricks what concerns me, such as quota system signed by lesser ministers instead of presidents and prime ministers of target countries with authority for veto-in this stuff as before. When one nation in treaty-based union start breaking rules or changing it on the move in order to force something on other member states, that's not a democracy anymore. It's by definition a totalitarian regime, so keep pushing and watch other countries following Britons sooner than you'd have thought.

... can you spell humanitarian catastrophe?

You're getting quite obnoxious and grammar jokes from you sounds inappropriate. Just sayin'

I personaly will soon work with refugees to do my part.

Just as I though, you didn't lift a finger to help anyone, just another keyboard warrior. I was personally helping thousands of refugees fleeing from second Chechnyan war in our Adamov refugee camp couple of years back, so let me know as soon as you start doing actual work and we can discuss real things instead of your idealistic fantasies.

Worked so well for your people against the Soviets, didn't it? Man! Fighting for indepence, with a rifle in your hand, and a patriotic song on your lips. Sounds always so awesome. Some of us need a reality check sometimes I guess.

Do you mean anschluss when Czechoslovakia with its population counting fifteen millions was invaded by army of Warsaw Pact counting half a million men and five thousands tanks? Are you aware that estimated figure of ISIS warriors is 22.000 right now, dropping from 35.000 couple of months back? NUmber of young males running away from this terrible threat is topping millions, so yes, some of us need reality check pretty badly.

Have you been one of those men undergoing compulsory military service with the task to eventually shoot at your own population if they wanted to leave your nation?

No, I'm in signal corps, thanks for asking. Now it's my turn for question - I didn't run away, staying with my family instead. You'd have to kill me and drag my cold body away in order to make me leave my own country. Are you not one of these people who dropped everything and run away when his homeland got into trouble, so you can make inappropriate jokes in safety of hosting nation now? Are you not one of these by chance?

As for the rest of your post, I'll gladly add more numbers and facts (such as about Slovak immigrants) later. Last time I got involved in fact searching whole thread got vatted, so I'll need to wait how things turn out this time before doing something useless once again.

edit:
Fount it, you can check Slovak immigration data in the Vats:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/203310/page-2#post-4054964

 

[Crni Vuk]

But across continents through several peaceful countries along the way? That's not fleeing from war, that's migration. Which is fine, don't get me wrong, but I wish people would stop appealing to emotions for refugees when it's not really all that applicable anymore.

Oh, I have no illusions about that, the people that most probably come to Germany, will stay here. But I am sure that a war and conflict is at least a pretty understandable motivation, all the same.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Meh, fucking double post. Can't deleate this one :p.

I don't care about folks moving to Germany. It's European legislative forced upon us with shaddy tricks what concerns me, such as quota system signed by lesser ministers instead of presidents and prime ministers of target countries with authority for veto-in this stuff as before. When one nation in treaty-based union start breaking rules or changing it on the move in order to force something on other member states, that's not a democracy anymore. It's by definition a totalitarian regime, so keep pushing and watch other countries following Britons sooner than you'd have thought.

Oh the tyranical EU again. And you tell me I am getting obnoxious. But I see now, poor Slovakia! Why did you joined the EU in the first place I wonder? Thing is, when we had a debate in Germany about east Eropean nations joining the EU, we had this exact same argument. 60% of them are criminals, liars, lazy and just want to get here to exploit our wellfare system, look at them! They didn't manage to improve their nations over the last 70 years! West German was bombed too and are the best now! They will just like the huns they will storm and march over Germany! And? What happend? Germany is still here. And we are not a polish colony yet ...
Quota have also one huge advantage for you, you know. When you have 500 000 people storming your border, you will have only to take as much as your quota.

You're getting quite obnoxious and grammar jokes from you sounds inappropriate. Just sayin'

I was dead serious. We are still looking a humanitarian crisis. Or what ever you want to call it. Sorry that I am not perfect with english.

Just as I though, you didn't lift a finger to help anyone, just another keyboard warrior. I was personally helping thousands of refugees fleeing from second Chechnyan war in our Adamov refugee camp couple of years back, so let me know as soon as you start doing actual work and we can discuss real things instead of your idealistic fantasies.

Fuck you. I have been supporting for DECADES people in Serbia who didn't even own enough clothes. Most of my recent years have been spend dealing with sucide attempts, depressions, alcoholic and violent family members and helping my sister getting over her issues due to child abuse in our childhood. And for the last months I have been supervising childrens, of which some are migrants. Or well most of them actually, but only very few are recent migrants.
But even if I wasn't rushing to the next refugee camp to help them, doesn't mean I don't believe that Germany as nation has a certain responsibilty.

Do you mean anschluss when Czechoslovakia with its population counting fifteen millions was invaded by army of Warsaw Pact counting half a million men and five thousands tanks? Are you aware that estimated figure of ISIS warriors is 22.000 right now, dropping from 35.000 couple of months back? NUmber of young males running away from this terrible threat is topping millions, so yes, some of us need reality check pretty badly.

Not all of them are runing from ISIS. A couple of years ago, we had Assads regime, Iraqui forces, rebells and ISIS. All fighting against each other. It's simply a mess. I have no fucking clue what it must be like to be a Syrian right now. It's a bloody civil war. That it is. Just as what happend in the 1990s in Yugoslavia. Everyone fighting everyone. With a lot of people stuck in the middle.

No, I'm in signal corps, thanks for asking. Now it's my turn for question - I didn't run away, staying with my family instead. You'd have to kill me and drag my cold body away in order to make me leave my own country. Are you not one of these people who dropped everything and run away when his homeland got into trouble, so you can make inappropriate jokes in safety of hosting nation now? Are you not one of these by chance?

Nice, good for you. I am proud. But I can not expect everyone to think or act like you do. Nor would I demand it from anyone.

As for the rest of your post, I'll gladly add more numbers and facts (such as about Slovak immigrants) later. Last time I got involved in fact searching whole thread got vatted, so I'll need to wait how things turn out this time before doing something useless once again.

THis whole shit fest here has been gone for way to long anyway. And we can fling numbers around all we want till the internet dies.

It still doesn't change one of the most important facts. We are talking about human beeings. Not cattle.

 

[valcik]

Oh the tyranical EU again. And you tell me I am getting obnoxious. But I see now, poor Slovakia! Why did you joined the EU in the first place I wonder?

Because it was fine union based on rock solid international treaties we've signed after joining. The same treaties repeatedly ignored and deliberately broken by Germany and ECB recently, mind you. One example for you - check out article 125 in Treaty of Lisbon. Nobody shall be responsible for debts of any other member state in EU. Despite this, whole EU was forced to form Euro-Rettungsschirm in order to prevent Greek bankruptcy, with Slovakia participating in this deal by two billions euros in form of warranty. Do you know why? In order to protect German and French banks from terrible loss, since they own majority of Greek debt bonds.

Thing is, when we had a debate in Germany about east Eropean nations joining the EU, we had this exact same argument. 60% of them are criminals, liars, lazy and just want to get here to exploit our wellfare system, look at them! They didn't manage to improve their nations over the last 70 years! West German was bombed too and are the best now! They will just like the huns they will storm and march over Germany! And? What happend? Germany is still here. And we are not a polish colony yet ...

You know what? That's exactly what I'm trying to explain to you! I do agree, perhaps more than 60% of all Balkanian migrants are exactly such exploiters as you're painting them and they need to be deported, not allowed to abuse welfare system in any country. Since their countries are considered to be safe now, they don't have to run away from any dangers, right? Nevertheless:
http://www.dw.com/en/german-deportations-doubled-in-2015-huge-backlog-remains/a-18991566
„Some 37,200 migrants voluntarily left Germany after receiving financial assistance from the federal states, which are responsible for deportations, the Ministry added. Nearly 90 percent of those came from Albania, Kosovo, Serbia and other Western Balkan countries”, it said.

Fuck you. I have been supporting for DECADES people in Serbia who didn't even own enough clothes. Most of my recent years have been spend dealing with sucide attempts, depressions, alcoholic and violent family members and helping my sister getting over her issues due to child abuse in our childhood.

Ah, you can't stomach your own medicine, I see. Rest assured that I didn't clap my hands happily under Soviet occupation either. Hint: think twice next time before you'll toss your childish assumption based insults on anyone. Shit might slap you back in no time.

THis whole shit fest here has been gone for way to long anyway. And we can fling numbers around all we want till the internet dies.

Sure, this won't stop all of sudden. Real numbers of migrants and figures projected by UN are simply terrifying, with 244 millions of migrants crossing the borders of another countries in whole world in 2015. Estimated figure of migrants moving through EU alone? 100 millions in couple of next years:
http://www.un.org/en/development/de...pulationfacts/docs/MigrationPopFacts20154.pdf

Okay, I'm glad you're not interested in this shit-flinging fest anymore, so let's stop it in friendly manner. Here's some polandball I had drawn for Codex recently, enjoy:

Spoiler

 

[Buxbaum666]

You are gradually getting more and more ridiculous.
Vergil isn't a racist or a xenophobe because he is concerned about Muslim extremism, or because he worries about refugee rapists. It also does not make him a Nazi too. You have literally no argument left, since it has been taken to pieces and destroyed , so you are reverting to calling him a Nazi and a racist/xenophobe because you have lost.

Being "concerned" about Muslim extremism, "refugee rapists" or other criminal activities by foreigners is the most common smoke screen racists and xenophobes use when being openly racist and xenophobic isn't currently en vogue. Can't say it better than Terry Pratchett (RIP), really:

"Ah," said Mr Pin. "Right. I remember. You are concerned citizens." He knew about concerned citizens. Wherever they were, they all spoke the same private language, where 'traditional values' meant 'hang someone'.

A Gish Gallop is where you spew loads of nonsense in a short time so your opponent cannot address or counter all of it. Vergil was citing facts and debunking arguments, I saw no nonsense. Maybe it was a half page long novel of 5,276-words, but certainly not a Gish gallop.

It was a giant torrent of stuff he copied from somewhere that nobody will be able to address without spending way too much time.

 

[Hassknecht]

So the FPÖ in Austria (remember when they lost the president's election by a hair and everyone celebrated the victory of democracy?) got the election invalidated due to discrepancies. The best democracy money can buy...
Will #auxit be next?

 

[valcik]

I hope not, another country leaving EU in such a short time would be disaster for whole continent with everything crumbling down. What I'm hoping for are effective reforms inside EU instead, including slight change in our immigration policy which is the main reason driving people mad.

 

[Hassknecht]

Well, the FPÖ isn't all for leaving, luckily enough. It's not out of the question, but certainly the last resort.
There are interesting times ahead, at least.

(Also, why didn't I think of "#AUstritt" before?)

 

[MutantScalper]

"Tyrannical EU". My country Finland is not only in the EU but also in the EMU (monetary union) like many other nations. I just have difficulty figuring out the tyrannical part in us. Not saying we, Finland, EU, or whatever is perfect. If UK/England wants to offer a more humane, sustainable, etc. option as an alternative, I'd like to hear it. So far what we've had from the Brexit side is the assassination of Jo Cox, Nigel trolling in the EU (no more of that thank science) and racist attacks against foreigners (including Finns) in the UK.

About immigration, think about countries like Ethiopia. Extremely poor country that has had to house, what, millions of refugees for decades. If they can do it, what's the European excuse? And also, what is the fundamental reason behind the recent refugee wave? Does the west have any part in it?