Bethesda Shows Where Their Priorities Are (Patch 1.6 New)

[Irwin John Finster]

Once Nuka World is released this game is going to officially be both the lowest rated Fallout game and lowest rated Bethesda game ever made.

I would but Bethesda forgot to add more handcrafted quests and put in radiant "Another settlement needs your help" quests instead.

We should be happy for that because the written quests are all as bad as Cabot house and kid in the fridge, and they all have you do same thing as the MMO quests regardless. This is the laziest quest design I've ever seen in a Bethesda game or any game that is supposedly not an MMO.

There is literally not a single good quest in Fallout 4. People keep saying Silver Shroud was good, and yet you end up doing the same thing as the rest of the MMO quests. It was only "good" because everything else is so awful so it looks better than the rest.

What those quest charts also show is that the actual main quests and faction quests still boil down to you doing the exact same repetitive crap as the Preston Garvey MMO quests.

Go play a New Vegas quest, or even fallout 3 quest, or a Witcher quest, then tell me Fallout 4 has good quests. It's a lazy cash grab that looks and plays like it was hastily thrown together in the few months leading up to release. It is entirely tailored to people who hate RPGs and previous Fallout games and who falsely equate the presence of voice acting with quality. It is, simply put, the laziest and worst game Bethesda has ever made. But Codsworth now says 100000000001 names!

How many Fallout fans were thinking "I really hope Fallout 4 is a crafting-based offline MMO?"

 

[Zyax]

I guess so. Let's agree to disagree on the merits (or lack of IMO) of FO4. I (and probably the rest of NMA) will keep on deservedly bashing Fallout 4 by harping on FO4's problems and flaws (with optional evidence to back our claims) to counter balance the irritatingly vocal members of 4's fanbase on this particular side of the Internet. You'll probably keep arguing for 4's sake but it's not a big deal for me at least. I'm already used to the rationalization when it comes to 4.

I find that a very backhanded way of saying so, but alright.

On the Bethesdian Fallout side of thing you have boring ass level scaling so there's no places with enemies that can wipe the floor with you in dangerous places and you have fucking molerats your level. You don't feel progression(unless plunking that 70th perk point is "progress), there's no proper skill system, characters are fucking boring and one dimensional, nothing really makes sense either.
.

Actually if you head right into the glowing sea, from Vault 111, you'll probably die from higher level enemies, and your example is at best off, all low tire enemies, like mole rats, cannot level with the player character beyond a certain, relatively early, point. And as for the characters being boring, well that's a matter of your opinion I suppose.

See, this is one of the major stupid ass excuse that really baffles me. Just because there was stupidity in the past games, doesn't excuse them to repeat it in future iterations.

TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT, PEOPLE. REMEMBER THAT.

If anything, it's actually in Bethesda's responsibility to see through that those kind of dumbfuckedshit to be removed from the newer games. New Vegas showed them how to deal with wacky and dumb shit, made them optional through traits.

Holy fuck, Kid in the Fridge was probably the most offending stuff because right in New Vegas it was made fun of through the use of Wild Wasteland, so it's obviously non-canon, and then they just made them a full-fledged side-quest, completely ignoring the established canon of the originals AND EVEN THEIR OWN. That's far, far more stupid than the accumulation of wacky stuff from the past games.


And in New Vegas, it wasn't about winning or losing. Hell, go through this site's subforum for New Vegas discussion, and you can see people still discussing which factions were the best for the Mojave/Post-Nuclear America. New Vegas showed us that the game doesn't always have to be about being the Hero of the Wastes, yet Bethesda repeated the generic search for family member.

Two wrongs making a right isn't even what is being argued. What is being argued is that every single Fallout game has had some similar missteps with either quests or easter eggs that go too far or do too much. I've seen it harped on and on about, nonstop, trust me I know kid in the fridge sucks.

But in NV you still end up giving the Mojave an ending that will have it "saved" whether it is through House, your own rule/Yes Man, the NCR, or the Legion. There's still going to be a ruling faction that will bring its own brand of order to it, ergo it is better than it was.

 

[MercenarySnake]

like mole rats, cannot level with the player character beyond a certain, relatively early, point.

Uh huh. You were saying.

 

[Izak]

But in NV you still end up giving the Mojave an ending that will have it "saved" whether it is through House, your own rule/Yes Man, the NCR, or the Legion. There's still going to be a ruling faction that will bring its own brand of order to it, ergo it is better than it was.

If you killed literally every single person in New Vegas I don't think the city improves and, if I remember correctly, the bad karma ending for Yes Man states that the world descends into anarchy.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

And as for the characters being boring, well that's a matter of your opinion I suppose

In the same sense that poop smelling bad is a matter of opinion.

Bethesda is so bad at writing characters that Witcher dev actually used Skyrim as an example of what NOT to do.

 

[Black Angel]

Two wrongs making a right isn't even what is being argued. What is being argued is that every single Fallout game has had some similar missteps with either quests or easter eggs that go too far or do too much. I've seen it harped on and on about, nonstop, trust me I know kid in the fridge sucks.

That's still counts as two wrongs make a right, from what you're saying. Basically, for you, because "every single (previous) Fallout game has had some similar missteps with either quests or easter eggs that go too far or do too much", then Fallout 4 should be okay doing that too. Hell, did you even paid attention to what I said? Kid in the Fridge is the worst offender, because it basically didn't learn from how New Vegas made the whole 'hiding in the fridge' affair a total not-canon, not-to-be-taken-seriously joke. And then Fallout 4 just made it a full-fledged side-quest, completely disregarded the previous canon AND BETHESDA'S OWN CANON ABOUT FERAL GHOULS, like the joke practically fly across their face without them even reacting, and as if they didn't even remember they made Fallout 3.

I mean, okay, if that was supposed to meant as a reference to the real life tragedy of kids getting locked in the fridge, it would be fine. But actively going against the previously established canon, and taking a Wild Wasteland joke THAT literally? Nuh-uh, no way man.

But in NV you still end up giving the Mojave an ending that will have it "saved" whether it is through House, your own rule/Yes Man, the NCR, or the Legion. There's still going to be a ruling faction that will bring its own brand of order to it, ergo it is better than it was.

Yeah, even if you decided to do a genocide run where you slaughter every thing moving in the Mojave Wasteland? Or if you join Elijah in his campaign to wipe the slate clean? Or (in a cut-content) you join the Think Tank, and made the Mojave your personal laboratory? Do any of that counts as 'saving the Mojave'? Sure.

 

[Zyax]

Uh huh. You were saying.

Maximum level for a mole rat in F4: 21. You were saying?

That's still counts as two wrongs make a right, from what you're saying. Basically, for you, because "every single (previous) Fallout game has had some similar missteps with either quests or easter eggs that go too far or do too much", then Fallout 4 should be okay doing that too. Hell, did you even paid attention to what I said? Kid in the Fridge is the worst offender, because it basically didn't learn from how New Vegas made the whole 'hiding in the fridge' affair a total not-canon, not-to-be-taken-seriously joke. And then Fallout 4 just made it a full-fledged side-quest, completely disregarded the previous canon AND BETHESDA'S OWN CANON ABOUT FERAL GHOULS, like the joke practically fly across their face without them even reacting, and as if they didn't even remember they made Fallout 3.

I mean, okay, if that was supposed to meant as a reference to the real life tragedy of kids getting locked in the fridge, it would be fine. But actively going against the previously established canon, and taking a Wild Wasteland joke THAT literally? Nuh-uh, no way man.


Yeah, even if you decided to do a genocide run where you slaughter every thing moving in the Mojave Wasteland? Or if you join Elijah in his campaign to wipe the slate clean? Or (in a cut-content) you join the Think Tank, and made the Mojave your personal laboratory? Do any of that counts as 'saving the Mojave'? Sure.

Ok fine, short of a genocide run it DOES get better. Also even at the end of Dead Money and Old World Blues, you go right back to the Mojave and what happened there is of little consequence for what you actually do at Hoover Dam or actually will ever see, so no those aren't good examples.

Also please point out where I said it was ok? Maybe the part where I did not say it was ok is what you missed. I'm saying that literally every single one has made mistakes, and that they should all be held to them. If you want to say it's the worst than go ahead, but I'll never be over the "easter egg quest" where you magically travel back in time to make the events of F1 happen, which literally makes no sense and should't give you any kind of reward for doing so, but it yields a unique weapon.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

That's still counts as two wrongs make a right, from what you're saying. Basically, for you, because "every single (previous) Fallout game has had some similar missteps with either quests or easter eggs that go too far or do too much", then Fallout 4 should be okay doing that too.

The difference is those games were still good while Fallout 4 is still lazy dumbed down garbage.

 

[Earth]

I find it amusing that Codsworth doesn't know the name "Shaun".

 

[CerberusGate]

I find that a very backhanded way of saying so...

And there you go again being passively aggressive to people responding to you. I was agreeing to disagree but you couldn't help but be snide about it now, could you?

Ok fine, short of a genocide run it DOES get better. Also even at the end of Dead Money and Old World Blues, you go right back to the Mojave and what happened there is of little consequence for what you actually do at Hoover Dam or actually will ever see, so no those aren't good examples.

With Dead Money, you actually get a non-standard game-over for siding with Elijah so the game does end with the Wasteland being doomed by your actions until you reload and do something else. I presume that they would have done something similar with the cut ending of OWB and besides, the effects of OWB are stated to affect the region in the long run rather than immediate. One can infer the oncoming troubles from the Big Empty leaking through.

Anyways, don't bother replying to me. I'll probably do what I should have done several posts ago and just ignored you from the start. It's obvious you want to maintain aggression to anyone who disagrees with you regardless of attempted civility so I should not even bothered to respond.

I find it amusing that Codsworth doesn't know the name "Shaun".

That would make babysitting very awkward for Codsworth had the bombs not fallen.

 

[Black Angel]

Ok fine, short of a genocide run it DOES get better. Also even at the end of Dead Money and Old World Blues, you go right back to the Mojave and what happened there is of little consequence for what you actually do at Hoover Dam or actually will ever see, so no those aren't good examples.

Meh, it's actually a good example because you insist that New Vegas's story are about 'saving the world', nuh-uh boy, because New Vegas AND its' DLCs actually gave us choices to also 'fuck the world'. Handwaving those by saying, "so no those aren't good examples." ain't helping you in this argument. I explicitly reminded you that Dead Money allowed us to fuck the Mojave by joining Elijah, unleash the Cloud, and wipe the slate clean, but all you can give me is, "no those aren't good examples."? Step up your argument, mate.

Hell, let's not stop there. I bet it crossed Obsidian's mind to also implement a choice to just fuck the Mojave, and allow us to leave by that gate in the Mojave Outpost. Guess what? New Vegas ain't about saving the world, mate.

Also please point out where I said it was ok? Maybe the part where I did not say it was ok is what you missed. I'm saying that literally every single one has made mistakes, and that they should all be held to them. If you want to say it's the worst than go ahead, but I'll never be over the "easter egg quest" where you magically travel back in time to make the events of F1 happen, which literally makes no sense and should't give you any kind of reward for doing so, but it yields a unique weapon.

Then what am I supposed to infer from that? Other than you trying to imply that it should be okay and acceptable for Fallout 4 to give some sidequest like Kid in the Fridge? Here's what I get your arguments with NMA here:

1. NMA: "Kid in the Fridge and Cabot House is so stupid!
2. You: "So what? Fallout 1 and 2 also had stupid shit."

Like I said to your argument there, two wrongs don't make a right, mate. There's no excuse for Fallout 4 to do stupid shit, especially after those things you mentioned in Fallout 2? Those has been discussed and criticized to death, heck even by NMA. It's past its time, and the damage has been done. But guess what? Instead of Bethesda learning a lesson there and decease from repeating the past game's mistake, they just repeat it and in even the worse way no one couldn't even imagine they would do it. And fuck, like I said, they even made it as if they can't remember they've made Fallout 3.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Denial: "Fallout 4 is a great Fallout game!"

"Ok fine. It's a great game...it's just a bad Fallout game...but it's still a great game guys!" "Well...Fallout 1 and 2 and New Vegas had this one thing in common with Fallout 4 therefore they're exactly the same!"

"Well at least it's a great crafting game!....Ok well at least it's better than Fallout Brotherhood of Steel right guys?! Guys??"

It's time to accept it is just an inexcusably lazy, awful cash grab that ruined the franchise for Fallout fans and changed target audiences to ultra casuals who hate RPGs and never liked Fallout. It's a game made for literally everyone except fans of any previous Fallout game.

 

[Mr Fish]

Here's a funny thing to take note of.
When Wasteland Workshop was released it got 16 professional reviews.
Contraptions?
1.

 

[Earth]

What's wrong with travelling back in time and breaking the water chip? It's a harmless joke that changes nothing in the Fallout lore. The water chip broke. How it broke is irrelevant.

As much as I hate Star Trek: First Contact, I have to concede that the time travelling shenanigans in the movie change nothing about the overall Star Trek universe. The point is some guy runs into a Vulcan space probe. The fact that Picard and the gang were running around punching Borg is just a dumb detail.

The point is, Fallout 2 put a lot of whacky stuff in the game. But that doesn't mean any of it affected the story or the behaviour of the characters or setting. There's a rat infestation in Klamath. Some guy wants you to clear it out. Keeng Ra'at doesn't suddenly change the nature of the quest other than that it might be a harder quest gameplay-wise. The Chosen One making Blues Brothers references doesn't suddenly mean Blues Brothers is now a major part of the Fallout narrative. Et-frikkin'-cetera.

Now, what would be lore changing is implying that events in the Fallout universe were somehow brought about by aliens, but surely only a total moron would do something like that.

Besides, the problem with Bethesda isn't that they put whacky shit in their Fallout games. The problem is that the whacky shit is terrible and poorly written. A girl, living next to raiders and a man who wants to rape her, wants you to find her nuka cola bottles because LOL WHACKY!

Or how about the guys who built their settlement around a nuclear bomb? And some guy stands in a puddle and worships it? LOL RANDOM!

Or LOL, those kids living next to super mutants unprotected! LOL!

 

[Zyax]

And there you go again being passively aggressive to people responding to you. I was agreeing to disagree but you couldn't help but be snide about it now, could you?

Just calling it like I see it. Doesn't matter if you disagree with me, but you've been rude as well.

Meh, it's actually a good example because you insist that New Vegas's story are about 'saving the world', nuh-uh boy, because New Vegas AND its' DLCs actually gave us choices to also 'fuck the world'.

1. NMA: "Kid in the Fridge and Cabot House is so stupid!
2. You: "So what? Fallout 1 and 2 also had stupid shit."

See that's where you lose me, over and over you say that I justify it because the previous games had muck ups too. That's misrepresenting my argument. It doesn't excuse anything, I give the same criticisms. It's different mistakes that where made, for F2 it's way too many annoying, game changing easter eggs with about a billion pop-culture references, and F4 there are a few quests that really make you scratch your head and go "why the actual fuck, why would you do that?" and it's up to you what you find worse. I know the majority find F4's to be worse, and that's fine.

The only way you can "fuck the world" is a genocide run in the base game, which for all intensive purposes is the least realistic way of playing NV. I never said "save the world" either, just the Mojave for the most part, again short of genocide run. As for Elijah, it's only implied he could really do a damn thing, with his hologram army. I see huge flaws with his plan, as those things are far from immortal, and sometimes they don't even make sense from a "how holograms actually work" perspective. As for OWB, far as I am aware, there is no really evil world ending way to muck around with the scientists there. Since you can't join them, they either need to be left to their devices, killed, or scared into submission. The evil actions are implied to have long standing consequences, using science for evil, but those consequences aren't ever realized or discussed. You don't actively use Big MT for anything nefarious (I mean unless you're a heartless monster and torture the stealth suit).

 

[Deleted member 93956]

The factions in FO4 are "ambiguous, grey, etc" becouse of a single reason. They are not coherent, in the little context you are given: BOS, 'murrican white knights, Institute, sciency folk, RR, shady underground folk, Minutemen, -blank-... just folk.
So when they do something that is "bad" or "good", or just different, and you say something about that (for the looks) people think: "Hah! What a twist! Man, 2deep4me, Story: 19/10, it made me ask myself if i synths are people or not, and AM I A SYNTH?!? ZOMG THE MYSTERY.
That is not world building, it's just a fart of a main quest consisted to kil, loot, return and sometimes fetch.

 

[Kohno]

Yup the infamous two, got anything else? Or should I bring up the ghosts in Fallout 2, the time travel quest, the giant talking stone head of the Vault Dweller, and more?

Fallout 2 gets a lot of deserved shit for the things it goes full retard on. The biggest difference in this regard to Fallout 4 is that Fallout 2 compensates pretty well through the things it excels at (the remaining 95% of the game), Fallout 4 does not because while it might be "nice" in places it's not "great" at anything.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

The factions in FO4 are "ambiguous, grey, etc" becouse of a single reason. They are not coherent, in the little context you are given: BOS, 'murrican white knights, Institute, sciency folk, RR, shady underground folk, Minutemen, -blank-... just folk.
So when they do something that is "bad" or "good", or just different, and you say something about that (for the looks) people think: "Hah! What a twist! Man, 2deep4me, Story: 19/10, it made me ask myself if i synths are people or not, and AM I A SYNTH?!? ZOMG THE MYSTERY.
That is not world building, it's just a fart of a main quest consisted to kil, loot, return and sometimes fetch.

Yup. Plus there is a very noticeable lack of actual dialogue from the main people in every faction. Maxson can be summarized as "Da instatoot bad HURR DURR!" and that is the entirety of his complexity as a character. Compare this to the magnificent dialogue you get with Mr. House or Caesar.

Danse is Buzz Lightyear, Desdemona set the password to her secret Railroad base to "Railroad" and has a big red line leading to it. She's also the most plastic looking character in the game (you know how characters look like actual mannequins when it rains in Fallout 4?)

The radio guy is shy. That is literally his only character trait. It's all he does the whole game. Every character is a stereotype, cliche, and totally one-dimensional. They have a very minimum amount of dialogue because they prefer to "just walk away" from dialogue, as they have actually stated. How do you play an RPG made by people who brag about ignoring dialogue? They actually said this:

"I like what we’ve done with the dialogue system… and having played Fallout 3 again recently I keep, in Fallout 4 when I’m playing, I keep hitting the button to leave dialogue. I keep forgetting, ‘Oh, I can just walk away’. I don’t have to wait for this guy to stop talking’. And now I’m playing other stuff, where there’s dialogue and I’m thinking, ‘Oh, I wish I could just walk away’. Because I don’t have the attention span for long dialogue!" - Pete Hines
http://metro.co.uk/2015/08/20/bethe...at-other-folks-wouldnt-do-or-dont-do-5352056/

How do you expect a good RPG to come from developers like this when they brag about ignoring a fundamental aspect of RPGs (the dialogue) as though it is actually a feature?

 

[Crni Vuk]

How much say has Pete in the development of the game anyway? Does he just manage advertising and such? Or does he actually give directions to the teams? Marketing people can have quite a lot of influence on the design and even the programming of a game.

Yup the infamous two, got anything else? Or should I bring up the ghosts in Fallout 2, the time travel quest, the giant talking stone head of the Vault Dweller, and more?

You have to ask your self though, can I make a whole Fallout plot around it?
Like, the mainstory of the game beeing a:
1. Ghost story
2. About time travel
3. Giant talking stone heads
4. Godzilla

If the answer is no then it probably doesn't really belong to Fallout. The things you mention are clearly easter eggs. Over the top pop culture references. And Gizmo even mentioned that you could explain those as hallucinations by the Vault Dveller. Because apparantly no one else but he/him experiences it, and no one ever mentiones them. But as others mentiones already, Fallout 2 was anyway rather on the whacky side when it comes to those things, and definetly not a standard that any Fallout game should adhere to. Saying, but Fallout 2 did it as well! Isn't making things like the Cabot house or the firdge quest any less silly.

 

[Zyax]

You have to ask your self though, can I make a whole Fallout plot around it?
Like, the mainstory of the game beeing a:
1. Ghost story
2. About time travel
3. Giant talking stone heads
4. Godzilla

If the answer is no then it probably doesn't really belong to Fallout. The things you mention are clearly easter eggs. Over the top pop culture references. And Gizmo even mentioned that you could explain those as hallucinations by the Vault Dveller. Because apparantly no one else but he/him experiences it, and no one ever mentiones them. But as others mentiones already, Fallout 2 was anyway rather on the whacky side when it comes to those things, and definetly not a standard that any Fallout game should adhere to. Saying, but Fallout 2 did it as well! Isn't making things like the Cabot house or the firdge quest any less silly.

I don't know how many time's I'm going to have to repeat myself but: I do not think that because the previous games had silly, whacky, or annoying things in them is an excuse or a justification for those two quests. I only bring them up as: every single game, even the one most often regarded as "best Fallout" have had issues. They should learn from their mistakes and try to improve upon them, but I also think those two things are different issues, one has a few bad quests that contradict cannon, the other has an excessive amount of pop-culture bs that it beats you over the head with, and easter eggs that do too much.