Bethesda's Lore Recons

[Crni Vuk]

I heard some people praise the game because "They remembered that the war happened before halloween" and wondered why other games didn't do anything with that.... to which I ask if they have ever left a pumpkin outside or holiday decorations out for a week.... now take into account a nuclear war happening and a 200 year gap..... the reason Halloween isn't a constant element is because it makes no sense...

To be fair, Fallout was never really big on realism. I mean we got pre-war food that's edible, pre-war guns & ammo that still work, clothes that are still intact, machinery & power systems that still work despite not having any human maintenance for hundreds of years, pre-war dynamite that's lasted even in the mojave that is somehow still stable, satellite's still in orbit when most should've crashed to earth by now.. All of this exists when there was a nuclear war and a massive climate change that ensued after it.

With all that in mind, I'm willing to forgive the presence of a pre-war plastic Halloween pumpkin existing in Fallout.

I hate this argument, no offense meant! Because this is exactly what goes in the "I don't discuss realism in a fictional setting" Quote. I think most of us really should never use realism when we say Fallout, but verisimiltude.

Fallout contains it's whacky stuff and it sure doesn't care much about realism, nor should it. But it is still a fine line to decide what is OK and at which point you also step in to the bullshit-territory. Sometimes it is rather vague, like the food. Because I see that you could argue here, it was 2077 and they might have figured something out to keep the food in good conditions and the 50s future vision stuff and so on. But Halloween decorations? That's in my opinion streching it. For example, we all feel good with a mechanic where the player has to breath air, and can drown underwater. Simply because it's plausible. Otherwise, why have air at all? Just let the player never drown. The humans of the Fallout universe could be creatures that don't need oxygen. Completely possible. But would it be believable? Probably not.

 

[SaucyLad]

I hate this argument, no offense meant! Because this is exactly what goes in the "I don't discuss realism in a fictional setting" Quote. I think most of us really should never use realism when we say Fallout, but verisimiltude.

Fallout contains it's whacky stuff and it sure doesn't care much about realism, nor should it. But it is still a fine line to decide what is OK and at which point you also step in to the bullshit-territory. Sometimes it is rather vague, like the food. Because I see that you could argue here, it was 2077 and they might have figured something out to keep the food in good conditions and the 50s future vision stuff and so on. But Halloween decorations? That's in my opinion streching it. For example, we all feel good with a mechanic where the player has to breath air, and can drown underwater. Simply because it's plausible. Otherwise, why have air at all? Just let the player never drown. The humans of the Fallout universe could be creatures that don't need oxygen. Completely possible. But would it be believable? Probably not.

Oh I agree. A degree of realism is fine. It helps with the immersion. Thing is, it's just a plastic pumpkin though. If there's some real pumpkin in Fallout 4 that's lasted since 2077 then it's most certainly a problem but I haven't seen such a thing myself.

Anyway, Jet looks to be administered via a modified inhaler. Inhaler's themselves are largely made out of plastic, too.. So, why is one piece of plastic surviving for 200 years more plausible than another piece?

Really not understanding here why some things are held to higher realism standards than others.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well ... Jet should not be there in the first place

But you know "not talking about realism in a fic ... *slaps Pete*"

 

[SaucyLad]

Well ... Jet should not be there in the first place

But you know "not talking about realism in a fic ... *slaps Pete*"

No one said it was. But if it's a modified inhaler, whatever inhaler it uses to administer the drug is pre-war.

 

[aenemic]

I kinda hate that drugs are so common and seem to have been everyday use items in the pre-war world. The game suggests that kids in school used mentats, for example. And you will find psycho and jet all over in places that don't seem to have been touched in 200 years (and not only as random container loot, but actual placed loot).

It makes me wonder why in other situations the game makes a big deal of selling drugs and addiction. Seeing as how easy they are to obtain, and how cheap and easy it is to rid an addiction, I say the wasteland would likely be in a much better place if everyone just embraced drugs. Apparently they turn you into superman with no drawbacks whatsoever.

 

[DarkCorp]

'Jet', as in the brand name and its current form, is strictly a post war, creation of Myron.

Could someone else, maybe clear across the country, accidentally discover the same/similar method for narcotics production? Sure.

But then this, 'East Coast', drug would not logically have the same name at the very least. If we are to argue semantics.

Second

As terrible as the explanation for how the BoS arrived in the MW and DC, if we totally ignored all realism, it can be slightly argued that they survived the trip due to VERY ADVANCED technology.

Now some travelling caravan, even armed with pre-war weapons, manages to accomplish the same thing, its just ridiculous.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Truth be told DarkCorp, should the Fallout license even be bought by another developer I think the best first step would be is to make all post Fallout 2 releases non canon (this would sadly also include FNV, which together with Tactics might be the little bit of good) as trying to work with a lot of this pointless baggage (people and the BOS manage to make it all the way to the East Coast with little support, yet no mention is made of what was encountered in the lands between such as settlements, factions/organizations, and dangers, the Capital Wasteland or the Commonwealth barely developed in the two centuries after the War, though there was somewhat of an explanation for the commonwealth, if somewhat weak) and many more such elements.

But perhaps in the long run it might be better to retire Fallout itself. I love the universe but if nothing properly can done with it I think it is best to put it out of its misery.
We honestly don't need more titles that take away the franchise more and more from what it was about and suppose to be.

 

[SaucyLad]

@The Dutch Ghost: Neither is going to happen. Bethesda bought the IP for Fallout for $5.75 million USD.
Fallout 4 by itself made $750 million dollars in its first 24 hours. Whether the game is good or not it doesn't matter, those returns are astonishing.

Bethesda's got a cash cow on their hands and they are gonna milk it dry. And with the sales of Fallout 4 in mind it's not anywhere near done producing milk.

Only hope is for either InXile or Obsidian to make a successor to Fallout.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

If Jet is to be taken as a "stimulant inhaler" there is a drug of abuse like that - in the 1950s I believe there was an amphetamine drug that was taken in the form of Benzadrine inhalers, popular among various writers of the time.

 

[Someguy37]

Now some travelling caravan, even armed with pre-war weapons, manages to accomplish the same thing, its just ridiculous.

Cats outta the bag on that one I'm afraid.

We could find Moria's Wasteland Survival Guide as far west as the Mojave, in significant numbers, during the events of New Vegas. And New Vegas is set only 4 years after Fallout 3, and it certainly wasn't the BoS or Enclave who brought it west.

By the time of New Vegas, we have large countries/empire whose total areas combined span from the California coast, all the way to Chicago, with no breaks. Cross coutnry travel really shouldn't be that difficult anymore. Except from getting from Boston/D.C. to past the Pitt.

I'm talking about Fallout 4.

They do also. The security office in one of the dugout area of Diamond City has toilets, showers, and several washers/dryers. Goodneighbor has restrooms and the like in the bar, memory Den, and the hotel.

 

[SaucyLad]

'Jet', as in the brand name and its current form, is strictly a post war, creation of Myron.

Could someone else, maybe clear across the country, accidentally discover the same/similar method for narcotics production? Sure.

While I agree it's silly there being a drug of the same name and effect on the East as there is on the West coast, people give Myron way too much credit. Myron himself deduced how to make jet from pre-war information.

In the pre-War days, big meat companies had experimented with a cheap protein extract for growing food. However, the product had to be abandoned because any bacterial contamination (even from common skin bacteria) resulted in a complex reaction, ruining any meat and causing it to act like methamphetamine. To cut their losses, farmers fed the extract to their cattle.


Myron discovered that the fumes generated from brahmin who had been fed the contaminated protein extract could be used to create a powerful drug.

Myron essentially fed Brahmin some pre-war protein he found, sniffed the shit and got high then sold it. That's the extent of Myron's genius.

Anyway, I don't think it's too far fetched that the Enclave or even the BoS brought it over with them to Chicago. The Enclave most certainly would've known the pre-war information and them having had dealings with the Salvatore's in New Reno I'm sure they also knew how popular of a drug Jet was.

The BoS likely has researched Jet and may even know about the pre-war info. too themselves. Either faction making a profit off of surface dwellers they don't care about is entirely possible.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Only hope is for either InXile or Obsidian to make a successor to Fallout.

I know but I can hope.

I still have great difficulty with letting go of Fallout (I have the same with a lot of other things I used to like like Star Trek and Star Wars for example but which since then are no longer to my interest), it is something that had quite an impact on my life as it made me realize that RPGs are fun to play.
Now I have to move on and try to find something new to fill the ever increasing void and that is not easy. (I wish my damn drawing skills would take off, then I would put all my passion into that)

 

[DarkCorp]

The BoS sent Lyons eastward in 2254. Considering Sallow was sent to Arizona circa. 2247, all this empire and easy travel hoo ha doesn't exist yet.


F3 takes place in 2277, thats 23 years later for Lyons and 30 for The Legion.

I doubt the BoS cared to learn about drugs. They were always fixated on military tech or tech with wartime applications.

The Enclave on the other hand may have brought it over.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

While I agree it's silly there being a drug of the same name and effect on the East as there is on the West coast

I don't agree at all that this is a problem if Fallout 3 and 4 take place even 1 or 2 years after Fallout 1 and 2. Why? Drugs are pretty much ubiquitous in any society, and if a new drug is developed that is a highly addictive stimulant, you can be damn sure it is going to spread like wildfire. If someone in the West Coast developed an amphetamine stimulant for recreational use, you can be damn sure it will find it's way to the East Coast in no time. Some people say the United States is the largest consumer of recreational drugs, and I believe a nuclear apocalypse would not decrease such demand but rather lead to a relative increase in demand for such commodities.

 

[Someguy37]

The BoS sent Lyons eastward in 2254. Considering Sallow was sent to Arizona circa. 2247, all this empire and easy travel hoo ha doesn't exist yet.

That still leaves the NCR, who control all of California, and the MWBoS, who had been in the Midwest for 56 years at that point, with their fairly advanced system of trade routes, covering everything from central Colorado, all the way to Chicago and Indianapolis. And from what we know of New Vegas, the four states area was nothing but primitive tribal groups who had nothing resembling civilization, and most of whom couldn't use guns.

There really isn't anything that was either not occupied/civilized, or not a threat to the power armored BoS up until they reached they ohio, as we have no idea whats between the MwBoS lands, and Pittsburgh. And Pittsburgh is probably the worst place we have seen in a Fallout game, and Lyons got through that losing only one guy... who wasn't even actually dead.

Its really not THAT difficult to get cross country anymore.

 

[Ilosar]

Yeah, Jet spreading to the East Coast after 20 years isn't that far-fetched. Maybe some explorers brought it, heck maybe even some less uptight BoS soldiers or people who followed them. It doesn't need to be one guy that brings the drug from New Reno to Washington DC, just as part of a chain of deals and circumstances. The fact that the drug is fairly easy to make once you know how helps, unlike the pre-war chems that (all-knowing PC aside) must require more specialized ingredients than Brahmin shit.

Fallout is solidly post-post apocalyptic now. It's not The Road. So long as you pack some heat, mind your supplies and don't piss off a major faction, I coud see cross-country travel being a thing.

 

[SaucyLad]

I don't agree at all that this is a problem if Fallout 3 and 4 take place even 1 or 2 years after Fallout 1 and 2. Why? Drugs are pretty much ubiquitous in any society, and if a new drug is developed that is a highly addictive stimulant, you can be damn sure it is going to spread like wildfire. If someone in the West Coast developed an amphetamine stimulant for recreational use, you can be damn sure it will find it's way to the East Coast in no time. Some people say the United States is the largest consumer of recreational drugs, and I believe a nuclear apocalypse would not decrease such demand but rather lead to a relative increase in demand for such commodities.

Yeah, in the older games though, it was kinda implied that crossing to the East would be difficult.

John Cassidy, (Cass's dad) from Fallout 2:

I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest. It's a big ol' radioactive dustbowl now.

Prelude to Fallout Tactics:

Some time after the fall of the Master, the Brotherhood of Steel constructed airships (zeppelins) and dispatched them to the East, to locate and assess to the extent of the remaining super mutant threat. However, a great storm broke and blew the main airship far off course. The ship suffered severe damage, with smaller sections torn loose from the main craft, never to be seen again.

.........

The command zeppelin remained aloft, thanks to the efforts of the surviving crew, who managed to keep the wounded vessel aloft until it reached the outskirts of Chicago. There the ship crashed, and those who had lasted through both storm and the crash landing eventually formed the Brotherhood of Steel, a new organization, which diverged greatly from the ideals of the old Brotherhood.

While I can understand what you mean, if even the BoS are having trouble crossing from the West to the East, I find it difficult thinking of drug smugglers/runners doing it.

On foot they would have to walk 2,600 miles from New Reno to Washington D.C. Crossing not only treacherous terrain but also having to deal with every possible enemy the wasteland throws at them along the way. Unless that smuggler is a Vault-Tec protagonist ( ), the Enclave or the BoS, I don't see it happening.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

I don't agree at all that this is a problem if Fallout 3 and 4 take place even 1 or 2 years after Fallout 1 and 2. Why? Drugs are pretty much ubiquitous in any society, and if a new drug is developed that is a highly addictive stimulant, you can be damn sure it is going to spread like wildfire. If someone in the West Coast developed an amphetamine stimulant for recreational use, you can be damn sure it will find it's way to the East Coast in no time. Some people say the United States is the largest consumer of recreational drugs, and I believe a nuclear apocalypse would not decrease such demand but rather lead to a relative increase in demand for such commodities.

Yeah, in the older games though, it was kinda implied that crossing to the East would be difficult.

John Cassidy, (Cass's dad) from Fallout 2:

I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest. It's a big ol' radioactive dustbowl now.

Prelude to Fallout Tactics:

Some time after the fall of the Master, the Brotherhood of Steel constructed airships (zeppelins) and dispatched them to the East, to locate and assess to the extent of the remaining super mutant threat. However, a great storm broke and blew the main airship far off course. The ship suffered severe damage, with smaller sections torn loose from the main craft, never to be seen again.

.........

The command zeppelin remained aloft, thanks to the efforts of the surviving crew, who managed to keep the wounded vessel aloft until it reached the outskirts of Chicago. There the ship crashed, and those who had lasted through both storm and the crash landing eventually formed the Brotherhood of Steel, a new organization, which diverged greatly from the ideals of the old Brotherhood.

While I can understand what you mean, if even the BoS are having trouble crossing from the West to the East, I find it difficult thinking of drug smugglers/runners doing it.

On foot they would have to walk 2,600 miles from New Reno to Washington D.C. Crossing not only treacherous terrain but also having to deal with every possible enemy the wasteland throws at them along the way. Unless that smuggler is a Vault-Tec protagonist ( ), the Enclave or the BoS, I don't see it happening.

Kellogg appears to have managed the journey from California to the Commonwealth. There are a few other examples in the game that make it sound like it's not necessarily a rare feat.

I of course understand what you're saying - it's not exactly simple crossing a post-nuclear wasteland from one coast to another - but the game indicates people are doing it. And all it takes is one enterprising young man or women to make the journey - with the Brotherhood, the Enclave, by themselves, with raiders, whatever - and start selling and manufacturing the Jet they discovered on the West Coast to start a new operation on the East Coast. It actually seems like a pretty good idea considering how hard it must be to earn a reasonable living in such a post-apocalyptic world. If facing poverty and death, it's not a stretch someone would decide to take Myron's invention and set up an independent operation where there is a new market for it in order to find a new life and earn a living in post-nuclear America. For example, they might move a little bit east - to Nevada. Then someone else might take it further. And so on until the drug reaches the East Coast.

In fact, I think that might make for some decent writing - meeting someone who did such a thing in the Commonwealth or D.C. Wasteland, who knew of Myron's invention and learned how to manufacture it.

 

[Someguy37]

In fact, I think that might make for some decent writing - meeting someone who did such a thing in the Commonwealth or D.C. Wasteland, who knew of Myron's invention and learned how to manufacture it.

Wasn't there a ghoul in some metro in Fallout 3 that learned how jet was made, and then started making an advanced version of it, ultra jet, because normal jet didn't do much for ghouls?

IIRC, he had some endless repeatable task were you could bring him sugar BAWMBSSSS!!!!! for caps since he needed them to make jet into ultra jet.

Then ultra jet somehow got to the mojave in the 4 years between Fo3 and NV, as it was sold by at least one merchant that I can remember.

 

[SaucyLad]

Kellogg appears to have managed the journey from California to the Commonwealth. There are a few other examples in the game that make it sound like it's not necessarily a rare feat.

I of course understand what you're saying - it's not exactly simple crossing a post-nuclear wasteland from one coast to another - but the game indicates people are doing it. And all it takes is one enterprising young man or women to make the journey - with the Brotherhood, the Enclave, by themselves, with raiders, whatever - and start selling and manufacturing the Jet they discovered on the West Coast to start a new operation on the East Coast. It actually seems like a pretty good idea considering how hard it must be to earn a reasonable living in such a post-apocalyptic world. If facing poverty and death, it's not a stretch someone would decide to take Myron's invention and set up an independent operation where there is a new market for it in order to find a new life and earn a living in post-nuclear America. For example, they might move a little bit east - to Nevada. Then someone else might take it further. And so on until the drug reaches the East Coast.

In fact, I think that might make for some decent writing - meeting someone who did such a thing in the Commonwealth or D.C. Wasteland, who knew of Myron's invention and learned how to manufacture it.

Ah, I forgot about Kellogg. I see what you mean. If someone took with them the know how to manufacture Jet on the East coast - no matter who, rather than there being a constant trade caravan run of the stuff from New Reno to a region distributor, I'll accept it as plausible.