Bioshock Collection - Would you kindly talk about these games?

[CT Phipps]

The irony of Infinite is that Levine was trying to show how non racist he was by making a game about 2 white characters that find slavery not-cool guise, then he forgets to give any non white character a name or a speaking role, except for the leader of the revolution who only gets 2 scenes, her introduction and her death and then retroactively turns her into a willing puppet of a scheme to save some mutant children in the most retarded roundabout way possible and the race uprising just serves to give you black moving targets.

Amusingly, Levine has confirmed that he was forced to make Daisy Fitzroy into a willing martyr because of fan backlash. Did you read the interview? He says he basically wanted to show that oppression didn't make you a better person.

Daisy was less developed than Frank Fontaine and wholly unneccessary to the narrative, IMHO, but I have no problem with the idea of revolutionaries being bloodthirsty brutal killers. Most revolutions are.

Let's remember that being baptized automatically turns you into a megalomaniac, just straight up. That's the only trigger a person needs.

Yes, Infinite is written by someone who not only doesn't understand Christianity in a way of being wrong but it's an understanding that the very idea behind its concepts is alien to them. They, for example, don't understand baptism is about repentence and washing away your sins is meant not to do them again.

That's some pretty egregious poor research there.

 

[Walpknut]

I am glad a rich white guy is writting on racial oppresion.

 

[CT Phipps]

I am glad a rich white guy is writting on racial oppresion.

Yeah, Bioshock works much better because it's about a bunch of rich white people getting angry at the poor white people for not being grateful at the opportunity to be poor when they were promised riches. It's a critique of Western culture and First World issues rather than trying to talk about being actually oppressed.

There's a good bit in Rolling Stone's interview:

I know there are people – and in some ways, you addressed this in Burial at Sea – who are bothered by what happens to Daisy Fitzroy, the African-American Vox Populi leader, in BioShock Infinite. They basically think, if I can use a 2016 metaphor, that you created a game in which Donald Trump founded a xenophobic colony in the sky, only to learn that the Mexicans really are rapists.

Here's what I'd say. BioShock 1 is about Jews. I'm a Jew. If you think about it, Andrew Ryan, Sander Cohen, Tenenbaum, they're all Jews. Suchong is Korean. During World War II, Korea was brutally occupied by Japan. He's a guy who survived.

They're all survivors of oppression. And they don't come out of it heroes. Oppression turns them into oppressors. And that's the cruelest aspect of oppression. If you look at Andrew Ryan and Daisy Fitzroy, they're not that far apart.

Maybe people wanted me to write about a hero who rose above that. Elizabeth is the character I invented who does sacrifice herself to break the cycle. But I think most people are destroyed by oppression. I could tell a fairy tale about people who are ennobled by it. But in my experience, as a student of history, that's rare.

If you pretend there are a lot of happy endings for those stories, in some ways it elevates the oppression to something it's not.

People also know or suspect that you're a liberal.

I'm not in this to make people feel good about their political beliefs. If anything, I'm there to mostly challenge my own beliefs. The reason Andrew Ryan is a better character than Comstock is I understood the appeal of Andrew Ryan. I don't get the appeal of the Donald Trumps of the world. I don't fear the things he fears.

I understood Ryan better. He was a bourgeois Jew during the Bolshevik Revolution. The Bolsheviks came and destroyed his family, destroyed everything in his life. That maps Ayn Rand. She's a refugee who came to America because her family was destroyed by the Bolsheviks. It's not really super surprising she became the person she did. Spider-Man was made by Uncle Ben being shot. Ayn Rand was made by her family being destroyed by the Bolsheviks.

I hope if anyone takes anything away from BioShock, it's about how oppression just goes on and on and on, and how ideology can get very muddy once the real world mixes with it.

John Lanchester, who wrote about BioShock for the London Review of Books, told me it was the first game he played that had the ambitions of a novel.
One thing BioShock did for people was it became that thing that people could point to and say, "See, Mom! It's serious!"

I guess I always thought video games had weight and meaning, even when I was playing Castle Wolfenstein on the Apple II, or System Shock. I was never ashamed to play video games. I never needed something to point to, to say, "This is why I do it." I just assumed that it was always going to be something that was out there, and outré, and never part of the mainstream.

But you did crave mainstream acceptance before the release of BioShock Infinite. Maybe you're past that now.

From a marketing perspective, I felt we had a limitation on our ability to reach a broad audience. You can't promote your game in the same way if you can't go on Colbert.

I think if anything it's worse now, the perception that gamers are some disgusting, gross little thing. The last few years haven't helped with that situation. If you look at Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, they would be first in line to say, "Video games are bad." There's nobody to vote for who's going to say that what we do is valid.

Unfortunately, it's Ted Cruz. He plays.

Oh, does he? So there you go. I think you can't look to other people for validation. I just turned 50. Life's too short for pretending you're something you're not. The truth is that video games are nerdy. They're also beautiful.

If you let somebody else tell you that what you like is invalid, and you listen to them, you're sacrificing a part of yourself.

 

[Vergil]

The irony of Infinite is that it ignores the critique of American xenophobia, founding father worship, and religious extremism to talk about magical portals.

Oh no it brings up big ole strawmen for that too.
Yes clearly people who care about the Constitution literally worship the Founding Fathers as deities, America is a xenophobic hellhole and religious people are all crazies.

Except, of course, that extremism is pretty much depending on where you stand. I also believe extremism is something which should be pursued with the left because I find it extremely tepid and limp compared to what it should be. I disagree with Levine's statement about moderation but it is a stand. Furthermore, extremism being bad is demonstrated with SPECIFICS not as a generality.

LOL
>EXTREMISM IS ONLY BAD WHEN ITS NOT MY SIDE
You're literally the fucking retards the games message are rallying against holy shit how can someone be this blind?
It is being demonstrated as a generality!
EVERY. FUCKING. GAME. involves a extremist strawman of each ideology.
Bioshock 1 is Indivudualist Anarchism
Bioshock 2 is Collectivist Socialism/Communism
Infinite is basically just a shitty liberal wankfest of what they view America as in general

Specifically, extremism in the ideology of capitalism and lack of government controls in Bioshock 1 as well as fundamentalism for Bioshock 2.

You clearly were sleeping when you played the game because you didn't get the fucking message AT ALL.
Bioshock 2 is a reversal of Bioshock 1 and is why I dont' consider the first two games as complete liberal wankery. It actually turns the anti-individualism and anarchism message of the first game on it's head and explores how extremism in the other direction is also retarded. It's a critique of extremist collectivism and socialism.

I think you missed the point the dude is trying to get you not to kill him. He assumes you're anti-Comstock.

The fucking irony of CT Phipps saying someone else missed the point xD

I have no idea who any of what you're referring to are. Albeit, I was referring to his previous avatar.

My previous avatar who was also Dio......?

Satire is a time-honored tradition. If Strawmen=satire then you've effectively legitimized it.

Satire is pretty much a strawman, yea.
That's why an edgy comedy poking fun at something isn't exactly a gripping criticism that proves much.

I think that's because you're incapable of seeing any flaws in your idealogy.

Says the moron who just said he thinks his ideology needs more extremism.
I don't take you seriously because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

That's an argument I've heard all the time.

So it's bad when others do it to you but when you turn around and do it to them it becomes totally legitimate?
I guess we'll add "hypocritical" onto "stupid" and "totally inept".

Actually, my general view of the DNC is that its a conservative fundamentally corrupt and broken power bloc that prevents people who want actual reform from accomplishing anything. The DNC as it stands supports gross human rights abuses, allows corporations to run over the United States, and prevents any real organization of labor or reform to prisons as as well as the legal system. The DNC is more Robert C. Byrd than Sanders.

..... and yet you're voting for their establishment candidate instead of the anti-establishment candidate and continuing to support them.

Oh you left way too many. You could also state the start of extremist Leftism was the French Revolution with Robpierre.

So you admit that the political extremism you're pining for is retarded?

I'm an anarchist. I literally believe the current system needs to be torn down to create a new one because of the sheer amount of corruption. Which, ironically, I think can only be achieved by regulating it to the point its powerless save in providing social services and means of critiquing itself.

>Im an anarchist
>this can only be achieved by more regulation
You're actually an idiot aren't you?

My sheer loathing of the current Left cannot be measured by mere numbers due to its complete inability to do anything but wipe its own ass with the American flag. They hide behind the "at least we're not as bad as the Right" to the point of sheer disgust.

You of all people should not be talking about people "wiping their ass with the American Flag"

Duh, otherwise I might support them. They basically weaken the government to the point it only creates a vacuum which other bodies rise and fill.

Yet you're a fucking supposed "anarchist".
A FUCKING POLITICAL IDEOLOGY THAT AT IT'S FUNDEMENTAL CORE AS NO. FUCKING. GOVERNMENT. AT. ALL.

Western culture was constructed on the principles of capitalism, religion, and secessionism. For good and bad. Also, Western culture getting rid of slavery is kind of a weird statement given the slave trade founded the New World branch of its economy.

We've hit levels of not knowing what the fuck you're talking about that shouldn't even be possible.
Yea, all of those secessionist Romans in the Empire!
Also the fucking British government spent a fucking huge amount of blood and treasure to outlaw slavery in all of it's territories and get the other European nations to follow suit. The American abolitionist movement was founded by Whites, LITERALLY EVERY OTHER RACE ENGAGED IN SLAVERY AND IT WAS WESTERN WHITES WHO FUCKING ENDED IT!

I am glad a rich white guy is writting on racial oppresion.

Hey what's that word for judging someone's ability to do something based on race?
Clearly it's because of his race and not him being a shitty writer

 

[CT Phipps]

>Im an anarchist
>this can only be achieved by more regulation
You're actually an idiot aren't you?

My arguments against all of your points can basically be summarized by you not knowing what anarchism is or the fact there's variations on it. However, yes, Vergil, I'm aware there's bad Leftist governments.



But I suspect this is getting a TRIFLE bit off the topic of Bioshock.

 

[Walpknut]

So Levine likes to smell the inside of his own rectum while doing very little research and reducing everything to caricatures while he convinces himself he is doing ground breaking writting where he shows how things work in the real world. Can't say the interview changed much of a my view of him.

Hey what's that word for judging someone's ability to do something based on race?
Clearly it's because of his race and not him being a shitty writer

hey I would never write a story about what the Chinese should do about the atrocities commited by the Japanese, I feel that would be pretentious of me.

 

[CT Phipps]

So Levine likes to smell the inside of his own rectum while doing very little research and reducing everything to caricatures while he convinces himself he is doing ground breaking writting where he shows how things work in the real world. Can't say the interview changed much of a my view of him.

I confess, I wonder if the guy is suffering clinical depression. It would explain Burial at Sea.

 

[Vergil]

My arguments against all of your points can basically be summarized by you not knowing what anarchism is or the fact there's variations on it.

You're the one who doesn't know what anarchism is dipshit. A core fundamental is NO GOVERNMENT, NONE, ZIP, NADDA, NULL, ZILCH. You CANT be an anarchist who believes in big government, social services and fucking regulation! That's not a fucking "variation" that's the exact opposite! Anarchism is completely incompatable with with any form of government let alone one with huge social services and regulation!
an·ar·chism
ˈanərˌkizəm/
noun

1. belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion.

Holy fuck I already knew you were a complete buffoon but at least try to not call things the exact opposite of what they are? Like I'm in fucking awe at your incompetence, I have trouble fucking responding because it's like a fully stocked buffet of retardation and I don't know where to start because you'er wrong about everything whilst being smug about it!
What arguments? You have none!

However, yes, Vergil, I'm aware there's bad Leftist governments.

Apparently not since you're pining for leftist extremism despite every single time that's happened it's ended in those bad leftist governments.

Fun Fact: These smiling emojis don't make you look like less of a completely retarded tool, in fact they do the opposite.

 

[Walpknut]

On the religious bit, is not just that he doesn't know jack fucking shit about religion (I am an atheist but I was raised catholic) but that he also doesn't know how people even work. Let's leave the whole political shit to the side, this is a story where the turning point of a character was getting his head submerged in water and he instantly turned into a magnate that could fund enough research to make a flying city in the 20's that works with shit that even modern physicist don't fully understand and he created a whole cult around him.

There is also the bit where the people in Columbia aren't even Christians, they are Comstockians because if he had any actual religious motifs or themes he would've needed to research and that would also potentially alienate some demographics so they couldn't sell the game. Let's go all Politically correct while criticizing an ideology....

 

[CT Phipps]

To explain, @Vergil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_law

I come from the strain of anarchists who have the belief that if you have to have prevention against people removing a person's rights or those rights will be removed by force. Hence, ironically, a free society requires forces which are necessary to maintain that freedom. The trick is to figure out how to get past the bottleneck we're stuck in with the fact cultural inertia and interests have made it so said bodies which guarantee freedom are the same bodies which highly limit it in other areas.

To use the example of Andrew Ryan, basically he had serious fucking issues maintaining the idealogical purity of Rapture because not everyone maintained his beliefs. The nature of Rapture's free society fell apart because in order to try to protect that freedom, he ended up destroying the freedom of its citizens.

I suspect Kevin Levine saw this as an example of Ryan's hypocrisy but I see it as an example of tragedy given Rapture itself, if it had been allowed to run freely with freedom of religion and trade, probably would have been a beautiful place but Ryan couldn't tolerate any deviation from his vision. So instead of regulations which made it impossible for tyrants to rise like Fontaine and later Ryan to rise, he had a vacuum of power and support.

 

[Walpknut]

Multiverse theory is a central part of the plot, but at no point do they even bring up a universe where Booker became like Comstock without a baptizm, or an universe where Columbia wasn't IBOLZ. Because Constants and variables, just say 2 words and pretend they have more meaning and you'll write the next best seller to rival Dan Brown.

 

[Vergil]

To explain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_law

I come from the strain of anarchists who have the belief that if you have to have prevention against people removing a person's rights or those rights will be removed by force. Hence, ironically, a free society requires forces which are necessary to maintain that freedom. The trick is to figure out how to get past the bottleneck we're stuck in with the fact cultural inertia and interests have made it so said bodies which guarantee freedom are the same bodies which highly limit it in other areas.

So you believe there should be a government with laws and order that enforces that law? And earlier you explicitly mentioned social services.
That's not anarchy.
That link you provided even goes against what you're saying here, it literally says that it must not be relegated to a third party but in what you're saying you think that there should be a force that maintains order and certain rules and even provides social services to people.
Your entire fucking ideology is an oxymoron.

To use the example of Andrew Ryan, basically he had serious fucking issues maintaining the idealogical purity of Rapture because not everyone maintained his beliefs. The nature of Rapture's free society fell apart because in order to try to protect that freedom, he ended up destroying the freedom of its citizens.

...... which is exactly the same trappings your system would suffer from.......
In order to have this supposed "anarchist society that still has a third party organization that maintains law and order" you immediately destroy anarchy.
How is this group going to pay to protect people? Under what rules? Will people pay for this group to protect them as long as they follow clearly defined rules? Congrats, you just got taxation and law and order. You just got rid of anarchy
You're literally doing half the work of deconstructing your retarded gish gallop of an ideology for me.

 

[Walpknut]

For all it's faults (the ending) Billy Bat understood Christianism better than Levine, and it was written by a 50 year old japanese guy, and that story had fucking Ninjas and talking bats. When a Japanese guy off handedly understands something alien to his culture better than a person who grew up in a culture built upon that ideology, you know you fucked up.

 

[CT Phipps]

We're talking at cross purposes.

Anarchy is not a goal but a method. Tear down what doesn't work and replace it with what does. Constantly rebuild and re-arrange the government to be better.

Anarchism is the tool, a chisel, and society is the stone.

Weak government is a goal. Social services with little AUTHORITY is something I approve of.

For all it's faults (the ending) Billy Bat understood Christianism better than Levine, and it was written by a 50 year old japanese guy, and that story had fucking Ninjas and talking bats. When a Japanese guy off handedly understands something alien to his culture better than a person who grew up in a culture built upon that ideology, you know you fucked up.

Levine's crappy understanding actually is the SECOND DRAFT too because one of his programmers got pissed at him.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/bi...es-led-dev-to-consider-quitting/1100-6404620/

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/03/ho...hape-bioshock-infinites-controversial-themes/

http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/1/4576374/ken-levine-discusses-the-meaning-in-bioshock-infinite

Ironically, Booker ends up dying for the sins of humanity and becoming a Christ figure but I don't know if that's a happy accident or intentional.

Because it honestly seems like Levine STILL doesn't get it.

 

[Walpknut]

Booker ends up dying because a version of himself of another universe did something that he had no control over and by the very notion of a Multiverse logically wouldn't do jack shit about the existence of evil versions of himself.

So in summary the message of Bioshock Infinite is that if life gets too hard just kill yourself.

 

[Vergil]

We're talking at cross purposes.

Anarchy is not a goal but a method.

Then you're not an anarchist.
You're a shitty revolutionary.

Tear down what doesn't work and replace it with what does.

And what is this system? You keep calling for the destruction of the current system but come up with no alternative!
Also yea devolving into total anarchy really worked out well for the French Revolution....
oh wait yea the reign of terror and require Napoleon to re-institute a Monarchy to maintain stability oh yea.

Constantly rebuild and re-arrange the government to be better.

So basically everytime the government does something you don't like just have a violent revolution that will kill loads of people and destabilize everything only to prop up a shitty weak government and do this ad infinitum? That's super effective! If only there was some other kind of government that allowed change without drenching the streets in blood and destroying the country from the inside..... hmm.....

Anarchism is the tool, a chisel, and society is the stone.

#ThingsThatSoundDeepAndSmartWhenYouDontThinkAboutThem

Weak government is a goal. Social services with little AUTHORITY is something I approve of.

You can't have both.
You can't have a super weak government with almost no power BUT also a police force, social healthcare and other social services.
You're just a really shitty fake libertarian that basically wants to be able to do whatever you want but also have no responsibility for yourself.

hey I would never write a story about what the Chinese should do about the atrocities commited by the Japanese, I feel that would be pretentious of me.

I don't think your race should keep you from writing about certain topics.

 

[CT Phipps]

I'm truly torn @Vergil because while I want to talk about my beliefs, I really don't care to argue with you about them and certainly not in a thread about a video game I love. I feel like I'm not giving you my best here because I want to talk about Bioshock, not anarchist law and revolution.

Booker ends up dying because a version of himself of another universe did something that he had no control over and by the very notion of a Multiverse logically wouldn't do jack shit about the existence of evil versions of himself.

So in summary the message of Bioshock Infinite is that if life gets too hard just kill yourself.

I think the best way to describe Bioshock: Infinite is Star Trek IV. You know, the one where they go back in time to save the whales. I love Bioshock and Bioshock II and to a lesser extent Infinite but the simple fact is Infinite has nothing to contribute to the actual understanding of the world because it's so damned bizarre. In Star Trek IV, the reason we should preserve whales is because otherwise a bunch of aliens will come and murder us. The solution is time travel to go grab a pair of breeding animals and then bring them back. I agree with the message of preserving animal life but this has nothing to do with that.

The same with Bioshock: Infinite that the way to deal with American exceptionalism and class divisions is to ERASE THE COUNTRY FROM HISTORY FOREVER. Which is horrifying because it also removes all of Columbia's children from existence.

Also, you're exactly right that suicide is what Levine was advocating because he murders not only Booker but Elizabeth--the person Booker died to save!

 

[Walpknut]

I don't think your race should keep you from writing about certain topics.

But one's political and economic context should make one reconsider when to write about extremely sensitive topics one has literary ZERO experience with. Maybe not outright stop you from doing it, but rather give you pause and go an do some extensive research and consider the point of view of the people involved within their own context instead of doing it from your completely divorced from the situation bubble. Something Levine has never even considered as a possibility.

 

[Vergil]

I'm truly torn @Vergil because while I want to talk about my beliefs, I really don't care to argue with you about them

>I like to talk about my beliefs as long as no one ever challenges me on them
Pretty weak beliefs if you refuse (or cant) to defend them when called to.
Sorry but if you merely want to ramble on about your beliefs without receiving any criticism of/for them perhaps a forum isn't the place for you.

 

[CT Phipps]

Oh and because these are always well loved, my review of the three Bioshock games.

Bioshock review (9/10)

Bioshock 2 review (8/10)

Bioshock: Infinite review (9/10)