Creation Kit and Bethesda.net mods are out

[Black Angel]

Bethesda is a lesser evil, when it comes to modding - they at least provide some tools. This may change when they monopolize the modding and start to monetize it, let's say, by providing paid addons for Creation Kit or sell their own content as mods - and then, ultimately, making mods Bethesda-platform-exclusive.
Their network installer is a datamining tool and this is monetary exploitation as well.

Oh, i'm not defending them, alright. Put the stone down.)
Just that the situation is more favorable for modders.

So what if that means Bethesda are the lesser evil? I mean, okay, Rockstar were stupid, they just wiped out modding scene for their games altogether - probably comparable with what Blizzard have done to Nostalrius (completely burn the bridge with their own community), but the way Bethesda are going with the modding community? I'm not sure if it's illegal, but it's way too shady as fuck.

Now, I'm curious if you are a modder yourself, or not? Because up until now, I didn't see any of the good modders I know, in this site and in Tale of Two Wasteland forums, are happy with how Bethesda are treating the modding aspect of Fallout 4. So how is the situation more favorable for modders? Please don't compare to how Rockstar treated their modders. Instead, compare how Bethesda treated modders in the past with how they are now. In retrospect, modding scene were okay and most acceptable in the past; the GECK were released right there with the game. No complication, no beta-testing, just there.

 

[Brahmin Noodles]

Bethesda might not be as bad as Rockstar when it comes to modding, but what they're doing now seems very anti-modder, or at the very least anti-PC. But to be fair, they kinda stopped caring about PC back with Oblivion, when they started to focus on consoles. BTW, anyone else find it odd how every time a game series that was originally only on PC gets ported to console, it gets dumbed down?

 

[R.Graves]

Bethesda might not be as bad as Rockstar when it comes to modding, but what they're doing now seems very anti-modder, or at the very least anti-PC. But to be fair, they kinda stopped caring about PC back with Oblivion, when they started to focus on consoles. BTW, anyone else find it odd how every time a game series that was originally only on PC gets ported to console, it gets dumbed down?

Rock star is still a better developer. And no but I have noticed that every 4th numbered entry in a series is either a divisive entry for the fan base or a drastic change for the series. Or a sudden decline in quality. One or more of these three every time.

 

[Polynoid]

I mean, okay, Rockstar were stupid, they just wiped out modding scene for their games altogether.

Who said that?

I'm not sure if it's illegal, but it's way too shady as fuck.

I agree on this. Still, it is better than NO MODS ALLOWED. This the point of mine.

Now, I'm curious if you are a modder yourself, or not? Because up until now, I didn't see any of the good modders I know, in this site and in Tale of Two Wasteland forums, are happy with how Bethesda are treating the modding aspect of Fallout 4. So how is the situation more favorable for modders? Please don't compare to how Rockstar treated their modders. Instead, compare how Bethesda treated modders in the past with how they are now. In retrospect, modding scene were okay and most acceptable in the past; the GECK were released right there with the game. No complication, no beta-testing, just there.

Am i a modder? Yes. Have i released +10 mods on Nexus? No.
Shouldn't i bring the haphazard workflow of converting models over a monthly 5 bucks software with crappy interface, outdated code and mandatory online mode? Okay.
I say, G.E.C.K. was a tool that did its job.
And yes, i am pissed, that BethNet Creation Kit is a fucking spyware and it tries to monopolise mods.

So, yes, in this regard, G.E.C.K. is still better than Creation Kit and i will gladly use a Creation Kit without mandatory BethNet, only with NMM.

And i will be furious if Bethesda try to touch Nexus or makes their spyware mandatory for mod installation on PC.

But Creation Kit is still a sign of better support than, let's say ZModeler or Content Creator in GTA:Online.
This is also my point.

 

[Einhanderc7]

From what I can understand of this situation is that this is not good. Restriction of modders can only hamper creativity not reinforce it.

As for console.... those poor fools should expect paid mods very soon. Otherwise there is very little incentive for Bethesda to host that service for them.

From a modders perspective (mostly the legal side of it), I wouldn't touch this or even the mods that come from it. The reason I say this is due to the fact that Bethesda is trying to force some form of control/regulation onto the mods. The moment you force modders to come out of the shadows and onto the paper you essentially castrate them.

If we look back to the paids mod revolution from not to long ago we all saw some modders trying to capitalize on the monetary value or what they thought would be value.

What ended up happening was similar to an allergic reaction from a vast majority of modders and users. Mostly because everyone felt the "value" being given to the modders was unfair, which it was. The fact that Bethesda can hide behind a wall of laywers and law suits does not make this a worth while system even with all the disclaimers.

Modding is a system that does not require regulation and if regulated it will kill modding all together. Plus the fact remains that modders are not protected under IP laws, nor will they be considered "employees" of Bethesda which excludes them from any form of "right" or benefit for their work.

From what I can tell Bethesda is ramping up to paid mods. If they keep heading in this direction I promise you their modder pool will dry up and they fanbase will follow. Hell EA tried paid mods a couple of times and figured out that it was a bad idea, and that's EA.

Paid mods = Free content work with no obligation to pay or protect the workers.
Paid mods = Slavery

 

[Crni Vuk]

Bethesda might not be as bad as Rockstar when it comes to modding, but what they're doing now seems very anti-modder, or at the very least anti-PC. But to be fair, they kinda stopped caring about PC back with Oblivion, when they started to focus on consoles. BTW, anyone else find it odd how every time a game series that was originally only on PC gets ported to console, it gets dumbed down?

Hmm, yeah I think the reason for this is because the Computer has simply the superior input devices. I know, I know someone somewhere will now get a tantrum, console games can be just as deep like PC games! Yeah, yeah. Except that I wasn't talking about depth, like the story or gameplay. I was talking about controls. You simply can't get the same input with a controller as you have with a mouse + keyboard ... that's simply a fact. And when you have people like Todd in charge, who seem to take always the easy route with things, as long it can be sold to the masses, you will get a lot of games made with the PC in mind, dumbed down for the console.

 

[Black Angel]

Who said that?

1. Rockstar: "Ye cheeky cunt, back off of my code ya hear or i stomp ya face! We don't approve mods. We made "Modder" a synonym for online cheater. We obfuscate the code, make it hard to crack. We break the modding scripts anew every update. (we can't get a permanent solution for cheaters, unlike that multiplayer mod we put a cease and desist upon) We ban mod artists from all their games they bought from us legitimately. Mods don't exist. Buy our cash cards. "

?
Okay, might be an exaggeration from my part, but still! From your description, I predicted that Rockstar's misdeed were fatal enough to make modders be wary when they mod Rockstar games, or heck even stop modding for Rockstar games altogether because of such treatment.

I agree on this. Still, it is better than NO MODS ALLOWED. This the point of mine.

The thing is, if Bethesda DO want to go where they wanna go now, you gotta admit it's way too shady. It's...... insidious. Basically, it's crystal clear that from Fallout 4 alone, they want to start releasing half-assed game left for the community to fix (and they even had the nerve to allow Unofficial Patch uploaded on their own site! Doesn't that tells you they have no shame?). And, after Automatron and Wasteland Workshop (which fortunately wasn't well received, except maybe on consoles), it's clear why they wanna hold the GECK from getting a release with the game: they wanted to mask as many mods as DLCs as possible so that after they release the GECK, there would be no point for modders who liked/talented enough to make that kind of mods to make it anymore (despite the fact that there was already better mods to substitute those DLCs). Also, Bethesda most likely would want to release more DLCs that they would likely announce in this year's E3. Since we haven't seen what Far Harbour would offer, I personally think we still need to stay on alert after the last two DLCs they released.

But Creation Kit is still a sign of better support than, let's say ZModeler or Content Creator in GTA:Online.
This is also my point.

But it wasn't a fair comparison, let alone relevant at all. Like I and some have said here, instead of comparing to how Bethesda and Rockstar fare nowadays, it's much better to compare how Bethesda are doing now, with how they've done in the past. That's what we are discussing right now, and why most of the modders I know were worried with the direction Bethesda are going.

Now, more on-topic. So there would be huge need to get Script Extenders to work on consoles. If Bethesda (and even Sony/Microsoft) asked the community to do that part..... eh, I'm not sure how to react. I'm not a modder, so maybe if there's any modders out here who were interested/curious in knowing how Script Extenders gonna work on consoles, or maybe even wanted to work on it, what do you guys think?

 

[Crni Vuk]

What I don't understand is why the game actually needs something like the script extender in the first place. At this point, why isn't it a standard with the creation kit and the game? THAT'S what I would see as a real support for the modding community. Just saying.

 

[DirtyOldShoe]

What I don't understand is why the game actually needs something like the script extender in the first place. At this point, why isn't a standard with the creation kit and the game? THAT'S what I would see as a real support for the modding community. Just saying.

Because no one on console would be able to use mods then and you will need and army to pry Bethesda's mouth of console dick.

 

[Zerginfestor]

That apology from Pete...it's like I can feel the snobbish attitude coming off from it, especially that "Seems better than Explaining" Shit. That comes off as a "ugh, whatever" and basically ruins the apology. If someone said that shit to me, I'd probably get really fucking hostile, it's like stepping on a Mother Deathclaw's egg, thinking it's not your fault as the beast growls at said you, then finally trying to kick the pieces back together and thinking "Done, you happy now?".

 

[Polynoid]

?
Okay, might be an exaggeration from my part, but still! From your description, I predicted that Rockstar's misdeed were fatal enough to make modders be wary when they mod Rockstar games, or heck even stop modding for Rockstar games altogether because of such treatment.

No, this cactus is too delicious. The game is worth modding.
People keep doing new weapons, vehicles and utilities, even though it's quite cumbersome.

The thing is, if Bethesda DO want to go where they wanna go now, you gotta admit it's way too shady. It's...... insidious. Basically, it's crystal clear that from Fallout 4 alone, they want to start releasing half-assed game left for the community to fix (and they even had the nerve to allow Unofficial Patch uploaded on their own site! Doesn't that tells you they have no shame?). And, after Automatron and Wasteland Workshop (which fortunately wasn't well received, except maybe on consoles), it's clear why they wanna hold the GECK from getting a release with the game: they wanted to mask as many mods as DLCs as possible so that after they release the GECK, there would be no point for modders who liked/talented enough to make that kind of mods to make it anymore (despite the fact that there was already better mods to substitute those DLCs). Also, Bethesda most likely would want to release more DLCs that they would likely announce in this year's E3. Since we haven't seen what Far Harbour would offer, I personally think we still need to stay on alert after the last two DLCs they released.

Aside from the, well, let's say, common bias against Bethesda, i admit on point that it feels like they poke and prod the consumers on aspect of whether they fork over money for shit content. I'm glad to see that Wasteland Workshop received so much negative reviews, because this will probably either raise the quality or amount of content for the same price, unless Zenimax is completely detached from the consumer wishes, like Blizzard aka. "Nah, you say you want it, but it's not what you want. We know it better" - excuse my free interpretation.
The Unofficial Patch... It could be that Beth asked the mod creators to post it on their network, for that it's okay in my book. A schlong swing however, and a Major Red Flag would be if Beth had the nerve to ask for money for this Unofficial Patch, or, tell Nexus to remove ALL their content, because juristically, all mods are intellectual property of Bethesda (some even more, as they use vanilla textures from Fallout 4)
I however don't see that DLCs are going to push modders out of business - i can even see Beth subside the modders and encourage to ask for money (so they can cash in the provision costs. Feels familiar, isn't it?)

And yes, there will be DLCs. From what we have seen, the Season's pass is supposed to save you, let`s say 15 €, but cost you 50 €. This mean, we have an approximate total cost of DLCs of 65 €. Now, we were supposed to fork over 15 € for both Automatron and Wasteland Workshop. Assuming the Far Harbor cost 25 €, we are already at 40 €. This would mean, there is going to be either another big DLC for 25 € and small ones for 10 and 5 or several small ones in range of 5-10 euro each.
It's just the thing how much they will offer, as Wasteland Workshop gave a ridiculous small amount of content for 5 €. I guess they will offer some more cut stuff, like Brotherhood fences and vanilla walls.
Maybe a extension for Creation Kit. (could be a reason why they separated the script compiler.)

So yeah, this is why we haven't made first contact with the Ferenghi yet.

 

[Black Angel]

The Unofficial Patch... It could be that Beth asked the mod creators to post it on their network, for that it's okay in my book. A schlong swing however, and a Major Red Flag would be if Beth had the nerve to ask for money for this Unofficial Patch, or, tell Nexus to remove ALL their content, because juristically, all mods are intellectual property of Bethesda (some even more, as they use vanilla textures from Fallout 4)

You do know what it means when Bethesda uploaded an Unofficial Patch in their site, right? It's a sign that they think it will be okay for them to release half-assed game, hence over-reliance on the modders, you dig? It's like they insults themselves by doing so, since it makes them look like they are not competent enough to patch their own game, that they hosted an Unofficial Patch in their site.

I however don't see that DLCs are going to push modders out of business - i can even see Beth subside the modders and encourage to ask for money (so they can cash in the provision costs. Feels familiar, isn't it?)

I'm not saying they wanted to push modders out of business. What I'm trying to say, is that they probably wanted to steer their fans opinions of a content that can be added as mods, so they can use the mod's idea as DLCs. This also made it redundant for the modders to try and get their mods to work on consoles since, well, I'm not seeing how console gamers can mod their game anytime soon, so console gamers can just download the DLCs that could've been mods. I can't put this thought into better words, since I'm not a modder myself, so I'm sorry if you didn't get what I mean

 

[Polynoid]

You do know what it means when Bethesda uploaded an Unofficial Patch in their site, right? It's a sign that they think it will be okay for them to release half-assed game, hence over-reliance on the modders, you dig? It's like they insults themselves by doing so, since it makes them look like they are not competent enough to patch their own game, that they hosted an Unofficial Patch in their site.

Half-assed. This is a word for vaporware getting kicked out of beta, just for the developer getting released from a guilt of having not accomplished anything. A software miscarriage.
Was Fallout 4 playable from the start? Yes.
Had it small errors that beta testers and QC missed? Yes.
I'm not defending them. But they did it better than the Creation Kit (beta) and their spyware client right now.
If you see this as they insult themselves - it's your POV. Their developers probably see this as a user contribution. Otherwise it wouldn't be there. They aren't screaming "Don't teach us how to make games! We're game developers, you are nothing!", no, sir. Because i know someone who does that.

I'm not saying they wanted to push modders out of business. What I'm trying to say, is that they probably wanted to steer their fans opinions of a content that can be added as mods, so they can use the mod's idea as DLCs.

Most probably. Mods are, as i already said, part of THEIR intellectual property. They will package it as a great user contribution, pat them on the shoulder and "feature" their idea in a DLC.

I'm not seeing how console gamers can mod their game anytime soon, so console gamers can just download the DLCs that could've been mods. I can't put this thought into better words, since I'm not a modder myself, so I'm sorry if you didn't get what I mean

PC mods will be available for consoles, as Creation Kit is PC-exclusive. Everyone who wants to play mods on consoles, won't come past Bethesdas network. Then, the "fun" with paid mods might begin, as Bethesda could think that console modding scene might be a market, where they can cash in.
The Steam Skyrim Workshop Re-Loaded, with royalties and Bethesda's provision share for paid mod distribution.

 

[Crni Vuk]

*Edit
Small errors? Oh well ... *laughs* yeah ... I guess, if you don't see crashes, fucked up quests, and all sorts of glitches that prevent you from playing as small errors. If your car stops working randomly, would you call that a small error as well?

Aside from the, well, let's say, common bias against Bethesda,

Oh well ... I wonder where that one is coming from. This is my definition of course, we sure are a hatefull bunch, I won't even try to denny that. But biased? Not really. We have a reason for our emotions and criticism of which is simply based on facts and reasoning. We don't hate Bethesda because they are Bethesda, we hate them because well, they are making overhyped, overpriced and bugged mediocre games. And our resentment had well years, nearly a decade to get to this point. Bethesda WAS(!) once welcomed in this community, for fucks sake even their developers like Todd and Pete used to post here before they gave up. Seriously, no matter from which angle you look at it, you would have to be a real and totall fanatic to not see at least SOME of the issues here ... even IF(!) you love Fallout 3 and 4.

 

[a721402]

*Edit
Small errors? Oh well ... *laughs* yeah ... I guess, if you don't see crashes, fucked up quests, and all sorts of glitches that prevent you from playing as small errors. If your car stops working randomly, would you call that a small error as well?



Oh well ... I wonder where that one is coming from. This is my definition of course, we sure are a hatefull bunch, I won't even try to denny that. But biased? Not really. We have a reason for our emotions and criticism of which is simply based on facts and reasoning. We don't hate Bethesda because they are Bethesda, we hate them because well, they are making overhyped, overpriced and bugged mediocre games. And our resentment had well years, nearly a decade to get to this point. Bethesda WAS(!) once welcomed in this community, for fucks sake even their developers like Todd and Pete used to post here before they gave up. Seriously, no matter from which angle you look at it, you would have to be a real and totall fanatic to not see at least SOME of the issues here ... even IF(!) you love Fallout 3 and 4.

They once posted something in here?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Uh yeah, sure, their accounts and posts should be still around. And the converstions between NMA and them was friendly. Some people voiced their concerns because of Oblivion, but many oldtimers here gave them the benefit of the doubt. With the following months, it became more and more clear that Bethesdas interest in old-time-Fallout fans droped drastically while they adobted the concept of Oblivion-with-Guns, even for their marketing. Something which they denied in the begining, Fallout 3 will not be just Oblivion with guns it will be a lot more bla bla (..), became later a strong selling point. And god knows, you could not be closer to the truth if you describe Fallout 3. It is Oblivion with guns in a lot of things. Definetly (much) closer to Oblivion than Fallout 1 and 2.

Some of us here tend to believe all they wanted to do, was to test the waters. To see how far and in which way old Fallout communities like NMA, DaC etc. could be used in their marketing and selling the game. Like, if you can win them over for advertising, awesome! If not? Well ... than not. So you could also hear later the typical marketing speches. Like: You can not please everyone! And the old Fallout fans had like 20 years to dream about the perfect game, so it is impossible to please them as you will always fail - which if you translate it pretty much means, don't even try it and they are not the target audience anyway.

 

[Polynoid]

Small errors? Oh well ... *laughs* yeah ... I guess, if you don't see crashes, fucked up quests, and all sorts of glitches that prevent you from playing as small errors. If your car stops working randomly, would you call that a small error as well?

The one that can prove that Fallouts were flawless at release should thrown the first stone.

This is my definition of course, we sure are a hatefull bunch, I won't even try to denny that.

Well, okay, if you see so...?

But biased? Not really.

Excuse me, i had this impression at reading the forums, before i joined. Also, hatred is often a sign of bias.

And our resentment had well years, nearly a decade to get to this point.

Maybe because of this.

Seriously, no matter from which angle you look at it, you would have to be a real and totall fanatic to not see at least SOME of the issues here ... even IF(!) you love Fallout 3 and 4.

Almost took it personally, until i realised i am being aware that the games are not perfect. Neither are the decisions of Beth.
Still, we as gamers take our pleasure from positives of our pastime, isn't it? Not from negatives - or are we? I can't recall a orgasm i got while raging at game freezing at the sound of vertibird. I recall enjoying myself building walls and robots. Thanks for not pulling pitchforks and torches on me.

 

[a721402]

The one that can prove that Fallouts were flawless at release should thrown the first stone.

Other game is not flawless at release can not be use as a excuse for a broken release.

Almost took it personally, until i realised i am being aware that the games are not perfect. Neither are the decisions of Beth.
Still, we as gamers take our pleasure from positives of our pastime, isn't it? Not from negatives - or are we? I can't recall a orgasm i got while raging at game freezing at the sound of vertibird. I recall enjoying myself building walls and robots. Thanks for not pulling pitchforks and torches on me.

Cover your eyes won't make the problem go away by itself.

 

[Risewild]

I think the thing about Rockstar is that their game has the online multiplayer component, so certain mods can actually allow to cheat in that game and be unfair for other players.

Bethesda only releases singleplayer games and so they have no reason to not allow mods or offer modding tools, since that was what always made their games popular and being sold so much.

To be honest I say fuck both of them... Hell fuck most AAA game companies these days, when it is not mods it is bad support, when it is not bad support it is selling overpriced shit, etc etc...

 

[Practicat]

It's hard to say whether there's a sinister intention in Bethesda.net hosting the unofficial patch. It has improved players' experiences, after all, as far as making the game less buggy goes. If Beth had decided to incorporate the unofficial patch's fixes into their own patch, then the benefit of the mod authors' work would have been diminished, and there may have been accusations of Beth taking modders' work and making it theirs, unless they were compensated (which is another issue).

The work had been done. Is it really unexpected that Beth would chose to host it ASAP, even if the work is not theirs, and thus improve players' experience sooner rather than later?