Fallout 3 headed to XBox? Not unlikely

[Brother None]

Now that's just not true. No, I'm not an oblivion-fanboy (god, I don't even like that game so much.. although graphics rock...), but that game had a LOT of stats ...

Really? I didn't know that. It's definitely an RPG then.

Ehehehehe. Other values nonwithstanding, I must say this thread have some good comedic value.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

Perfect definition. Couldn't have said it any better.... Mainly due to my limited English skills (German one here ) of course... ahem...


so... Obilivion not a RPG? hmmm....

1. Character development... not the typical lvl up system. But thats not an argument... skilling by doing. Why not?

2. Influences on the world. I agree thats those influences are not THAT big, ok.. but theyre definatly there... somewhere hidden, but they're there.

3. Freedom of choice. Well a world, where you can go everywhere and explore everything IS freedom, isn't it. Of course, games like BG or Fallout offer even more. BUT IT IS THERE...

4. Shooter elements. They are there. Can't argue on that one. You need to aim. Something that just shouldn't be in a RPG. I totally agree on that...

5. Melee skills needed. Shouldn't be in a RPG, too...

Basically you can say, that its not an classical RPG. It's not evena 100% RPG as it has many things, that are typical for other genres... Shooters for example... But sry, you simply cannot say that it has nothing of an RPG in it.


Edit: Just to make it clear. I'm not defending that game, im just defending it's genre

 

[Briosafreak]

It's actually an interesting discussion for those that are watching it from a distance. As the V3d, RPGWatch and the Codex ones are too.

 

[Blunted]

A really good post

Thank you, That's what I wanted to know. You're an abrasive cunt but you can write an excellent post

 

[Brother None]

Edit: Just to make it clear. I'm not defending that game, im just defending it's genre

Heh, that's funny, because I won't attack the game, but I will attack it's genre being defined as cRPG. I think that no matter how you define cRPG, Oblivion is not one because it is in it's core a hack'n'slash. Tack on as many cRPG elements as you will, you'll not make a cRPG out of it. See full post on last page.

It's actually an interesting discussion for those that are watching it from a distance. As the V3d, RPGWatch and the Codex ones are too.

Wish I had full time to read it. The RPGWatch discussion was interesting if kind of me-against-the-world. Codex is funny. Don't have time for V3d.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

Heh, that's funny, because I won't attack the game, but I will attack it's genre being defined as cRPG. I think that no matter how you define cRPG, Oblivion is not one because it is in it's core a hack'n'slash. Tack on as many cRPG elements as you will, you'll not make a cRPG out of it. See full post on last page.

Of course it's not a cRPG, but it has (as you said) elements. Probably I wasn't very clear on that. Not an RPG, but a mix. And Fallout shouldn't be like it. Let's just agree on that xD

 

[VDweller]

2. Influences on the world. I agree thats those influences are not THAT big, ok.. but theyre definatly there... somewhere hidden, but they're there.

Examples please.

3. Freedom of choice. Well a world, where you can go everywhere and explore everything IS freedom, isn't it.

You should try Notepad. The freedom will blow your mind away.

But sry, you simply cannot say that it has nothing of an RPG in it.

Warcraft 3 has RPG elements. Do they make it an RPG? One of the Jedi Knights games had Force Powers "skills". Same question.

Edit: Just to make it clear. I'm not defending that game, im just defending it's genre

FPS games are awesome and need no defending!

 

[TheSHEEEP]

Read my last post?

It's not an pure RPG. It has elements. ELEMENTS.

E L E M E N T S

Nothing more.. mkay?!... Holy shit!...



btw.... Influence, small as it is.... the peoples reaction when you're near them. I know, its not much and I NEVER said it was, but it's there.

 

[VDweller]

Read my last post?

It's not an pure RPG. It has elements. ELEMENTS.

E L E M E N T S

Nothing more.. mkay?!... Holy shit!...

In other words, it's NOT, in fact, an RPG. Thank you.

btw.... Influence, small as it is.... the peoples reaction when you're near them. I know, its not much and I NEVER said it was, but it's there.

Reaction and "influences on the world" (your quote, not mine) are two different things.

 

[Brother None]

the peoples reaction when you're near them

Y'know, I saw some mudcrabs yesterday. Vile creatures.

You'll have a hard time defending Oblivion reactions

 

[TheSHEEEP]

In other words, it's NOT, in fact, an RPG. Thank you.

No problem... Should've said that earlier, shouldn't I? ^^

Reaction and "influences on the world" (your quote, not mine) are two different things.

True, but isn't influencing the world when people are talking about actions you did in the past?
Anyway... since that point is not THAT important I think we should just stop talking about it lol...


@ Jabberwocky: Ehrm.. I.. errrrhm.... you see... this is obviously because all people in that room are deaf and blind. Isn't that obvious? o.O

 

[Sander]

Perfect definition. Couldn't have said it any better.... Mainly due to my limited English skills (German one here ) of course... ahem...


so... Obilivion not a RPG? hmmm....

1. Character development... not the typical lvl up system. But thats not an argument... skilling by doing. Why not?

Because there is no actual character development, the world levels to your level making any character advancement entirely meaningless. You could just as easily beat the game at level 1 as at level 2354.

2. Influences on the world. I agree thats those influences are not THAT big, ok.. but theyre definatly there... somewhere hidden, but they're there.

No, they're not. The influences on the world are superficial at best, and really really sparse because god forbid you lock some part of the game out because someone made a *meaningful choice* somewhere.
Hell, you can become the head of all guids easily, including the mage guild *without even being a mage*. How's that for consequences?

3. Freedom of choice. Well a world, where you can go everywhere and explore everything IS freedom, isn't it. Of course, games like BG or Fallout offer even more. BUT IT IS THERE...

I said meaningful choices. Choices without consequences are meaningless, and that's what Oblivion offers. Pretend-choices that aren't really choices at all. It's like choosing between beer and fermented and processed wheat.

Also, please don't tout BG as an example of a good RPG. It really is much, much more of a hack n slash (again, look at meaningful choices, consequences, opportunities to define your character (which are absent from Oblivion as well)).

4. Shooter elements. They are there. Can't argue on that one. You need to aim. Something that just shouldn't be in a RPG. I totally agree on that...

5. Melee skills needed. Shouldn't be in a RPG, too...

Basically you can say, that its not an classical RPG. It's not evena 100% RPG as it has many things, that are typical for other genres... Shooters for example... But sry, you simply cannot say that it has nothing of an RPG in it.

No one claimed that. It has very, very little of an RPG in it and it certainly isn't a full-on RPG which is, you know, what Bethesda continues to say. Demonstrating their perception of what an RPG is, which probably reflects on what they think Fallout 'needs'.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

Okay, lets just say I agree with you on all points... but...

BG NOT A GOOD RPG?... sry, but.. what?!

(talking bout BG2 now, since it's the better game)

Haven't heard that one in 7 years now...
What's next? Will you say that D&D is not a P&P platform?

Creating a character out of millions of choices, having a group of 6 characters, which are interacting with each other, spells and mystic weapon stuff without end, interacting with loads of people, dialogues over dialogues over dialogues... I could go on with this for ours.

Of course, there is much fighting.... but thats the funniest part of it, isnt it?...

I get the slight impressions that some define RPGs just over the amount of "opportunities to define you character" and "meaningful consequences".... those are onl PARTS of a RPG... not EVERYTHING o.O

Also... what are you talking about when you say "meaningful consequences".... are you even aware that the small guy you are playing in some games shouldn't even be able to achieve any "meaningful" changes in his world?...

 

[VDweller]

Okay, lets just say I agree with you on all points... but...

BG NOT A GOOD RPG?... sry, but.. what?!

Here we go again. *sigh*

What's next? Will you say that D&D is not a P&P platform?

A DnD game doesn't automatically implies an RPG, does it?

Creating a character out of millions of choices...

What choices? Classes & skills? Should I specialize in short swords or long swords? Hmm... decisions, decisions...

... having a group of 6 characters...

Fallout Tactics also had a group of 6 characters (or what was it?). Was that an RPG?

... which are interacting with each other...

And?

... spells and mystic weapon stuff without end

Hexen?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeXen

"The fighter has the greatest physical advantage. While a number of his weapons - a pair of spiked gauntlets, Timon's Axe, the Hammer of Retribution, and the Quietus, a sword - can be enhanced by magic, they are powerful stand-alone. The Gauntlets and Axe are melee-only weapons; the Hammer and Quietus can use magic for firing projectiles. All are effective combined with the fighter's high strength and stamina. He moves the fastest out of the three, but since he possesses little magic, long-range combat is reserved until the Hammer of Retribution is acquired. The fighter's ultimate weapon is the Quietus, a sword that sends out a spread of magical projectiles."

What an awesome RPG that was.

... interacting with loads of people...

I think we've already agreed that Oblivion wasn't an RPG despite having all the NPC interactions.

... dialogues over dialogues over dialogues...

That all led to the same outcome.

Overall, BG2 was a pretty good adventure game with stats, a bit too heavy on the combat side though.

Also... what are you talking about when you say "meaningful consequences".... are you even aware that the small guy you are playing in some games shouldn't even be able to achieve any "meaningful" changes in his world?...

Recommended reading:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=13369

Look for "Just what the FUCK is an RPG?!!!" chapter.

 

[Sander]

Okay, lets just say I agree with you on all points... but...

BG NOT A GOOD RPG?... sry, but.. what?!

No, it isn't. I explained that to you.

(talking bout BG2 now, since it's the better game)

Then say BG2, not BG. Also, BG2 was slightly better (though not much better).

Haven't heard that one in 7 years now...
What's next? Will you say that D&D is not a P&P platform?

No, it's a ruleset.
Haha!

Creating a character out of millions of choices,

Explained how that is rather irrelevant.

having a group of 6 characters, which are interacting with each other,

One of the few places Baldur's Gate *2* actually dares show some consequences, although some of the romance stuff was horribly written. It's like they pulled in George Lucas.

spells and mystic weapon stuff without end,

Setting, has nothing to do with being an RPG or not.

interacting with loads of people,

The amount of interaction matters not, since there are (again) barely any consequences and, very important, very few character-defining choices.
Seriously, you can be a completely lawful paladin but still *join the thieves guild*. What the hell?

dialogues over dialogues over dialogues... I could go on with this for ours.

Actually, the amount of dialogue wasn't that impressive when compared to, say, Planescape: Torment and, again, there were no real choices.

Of course, there is much fighting.... but thats the funniest part of it, isnt it?...

You mean the suckiest? Real-time with pause, psch.

I get the slight impressions that some define RPGs just over the amount of "opportunities to define you character" and "meaningful consequences".... those are onl PARTS of a RPG... not EVERYTHING o.O

Then do explain what the other parts are? Stats certainly aren't (remember, they were only a facility to help define a character, it was still about character definition).
No one can deny that BG has some parts of an RPG in it, but it certainly isn't a full-on RPG.

Also... what are you talking about when you say "meaningful consequences".... are you even aware that the small guy you are playing in some games shouldn't even be able to achieve any "meaningful" changes in his world?...

Not the point, and that depends on the setting.
Meaningful consequences are consequences that aren't just 'Hey, your light side meter just went up!'
For instance, noticing that your killing someone means something more to people than 'hey he's gone'. For instance, he could've been the mark of a bunch of thieves, or the leader to a not-so-evil group of 'thugs'. In a good RPG you'll notice that one action often has consequences, some you may not have foreseen, but consequences that actually mean something in the game.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

Ok, im gonna stop this now. There's no way I could convince you and no way, you could convince me.

Seems like we simply have different opinions about what is RPG and what not?

While you seem to have a rather straight opinion "THAT is RPG, THAT is not, because it has only shvivtyshwa elements and not enough amount of THIS ESSENTIAL RPG TRADITION"... my opinion is more open.

I say "There's no scheme for the word 'RPG', nothing you could put a game into and if doesn't fit exactly it's no RPG. There are elements that are RPG typical, there are a lot of them. The more you can apply to a game, the more RPG-like it gets. THERE IS NO GAME (not even Fallout) WHICH HAS ALL OF THEM... and yet, there are a lot of RPGs."

So.. thats it.. I'm not going to look into this thread anymore... Already suffered a near-heart-attack cause of this ignorance I'm encountering...

 

[Sander]

Ok, im gonna stop this now. There's no way I could convince you and no way, you could convince me.

Seems like we simply have different opinions about what is RPG and what not?

While you seem to have a rather straight opinion "THAT is RPG, THAT is not, because it has only shvivtyshwa elements and not enough amount of THIS ESSENTIAL RPG TRADITION"... my opinion is more open.

I say "There's no scheme for the word 'RPG', nothing you could put a game into and if doesn't fit exactly it's no RPG. There are elements that are RPG typical, there are a lot of them. The more you can apply to a game, the more RPG-like it gets. THERE IS NO GAME (not even Fallout) WHICH HAS ALL OF THEM... and yet, there are a lot of RPGs."

You have yet to come up with *any* definition of your own, though, other than 'Stats!'

So.. thats it.. I'm not going to look into this thread anymore... Already suffered a near-heart-attack cause of this ignorance I'm encountering...

Irony.

 

[Bradylama]

To be put basically, a roleplaying game is a system which allows the player to interact with a fictional world and affect it through a player character. The difference between good and bad RPGs, depend on how much freedom is alloted to the player in how he wants his player character to interact with the gameworld, and the player character's behavior. Roleplaying games which allow the player a wide variety of options in regards to the player character's personality and actions are regarded higher than others. All of these choices, however, are reliant upon consequence, and if the actions of the player character have little to no effect on the gameworld or the player character, then the game is considered to be very poor...

...Ultimately, a game which allows the player to determine the characteristics of a player character, and supports the choices of the player with appreciable consequences is a roleplaying game.

That's essentially my definition of a roleplaying game. Oblivion had no appreciable consequences. You could get out of murdering guards for 1000 septims. If there were kids in the game, you could no doubt buy your way out of murdering them too.

All of the influence the player had on the gameworld was meaningless because they came with no consequences. You could be the guild master of all 4 guilds, including the Assassin's Guild, and it didn't do diddly squat to the player character, or the gameworld, aside from the deaths of quest-specific NPCs and the acquisition of goodies. The game world did not react to these changes at all, and didn't even offer an end-game detail of the ultimate results of your actions. Remember how the guards would call you the Hero of Kvatch then treat you like shit when you tried talking to them?

Scratch that, the player wasn't even offered any choices. The player character automatically accepted quests irregardless of any moral implications (the game itself is completely amoral). The only decisions the player does have is whether or not to join a guild, at that point in time.

 

[Lumpy]

What RPG? Oblivion was a shooter with stats.

Now that's just not true. No, I'm not an oblivion-fanboy (god, I don't even like that game so much.. although graphics rock...), but that game had a LOT of stats and many aspects of a RPG.... character development, and so on.. of course, it was not as "true" as Baldur's Gate or stuff,, but it still was a RPG!

Yeah, if only more RPGs were as hardcore as Baldur's Gate...
Its dialogue is crap (looks like something anyone could write without thinking first), party interaction is non-existant, combat is half-decent but boring and pointless, the quests are fucking moronic and 90% of them share the same idiotic template, there are basically no CHARACTER DEFINING choices, most dialogue choices usually include a normal one and a LOL TEH FUNNAY one, all the characters are bland, party members are just archetypes with unique portraits and no dialogue.
The fact that Planescape was released only one year later proves that Bioware weren't pioneers, they were morons.

 

[st0lve]

I think Bethesda actually knows that their hardcore and hopefully main market (old Fallout fans) is their nr. 1 priority. So I have high doubts on that Bethesda will make it for consoles then port it to PC.

About views and such, I think they'll keep it atleast 3rd person, hopefully the old style, but you'll probably have several options (zoom in\out, rotate etc.) on the camera.

I think Beth actually have good chances in making a good game, that will sell for both PC and consoles. Tbh these days a company has to make a multi-platform game to even make money, since they have to spend millions on actually creating the game, and PC simply doesn't bring in enough money (unless it's a best-seller or a "flagship").