Fallout: New Vegas quest troubleshooting (spoilers)

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Obsidian really didn't think a lot of this through did they?

I don't think that designing quests for a "no-deaths whatsoever" archetype was going through their minds when they made NV.

 

[Lexx]

It is a post apocalyptic game. I don't know why everyone thinks there should be a 100% no-violence-for-anyone path in the game.

 

[SnapSlav]

Obsidian really didn't think a lot of this through did they?

Why do you keep coming back to this thought? I usually hate hearing people complimenting Bethesda for making New Vegas when all they did was Produce it, instead of giving Obsidian proper credit. But this is an instance where you're blaming Obsidian for something they didn't do wrong. What holds the game back is its engine, and Obsidian didn't make the Oblivion engine. Everything else which Obsidian did have control over was purely intentional, as pointed out below.

Protip: Many pacifists in the real world don't have a problem with self-defense if it's necessary. I'd suspect that pacifists in a post-apocalyptic wasteland would be even more lenient about things like that.

I don't think that designing quests for a "no-deaths whatsoever" archetype was going through their minds when they made NV.

It is a post apocalyptic game. I don't know why everyone thinks there should be a 100% no-violence-for-anyone path in the game.

I think the matter isn't so much that you were confusing the ending of FO2 for being more or less pacifistic, but rather you're confusing what the original "non-violent playthroughs" were meant to be. The original games had a combat MODE; when you entered combat, everything else STOPPED. Fighting or not fighting was very distinct and separate, so players would beat the game by not getting into COMBAT. This has nothing to do with "not killing anyone". Like already mentioned, you kill thousands and thousands of people by blowing up Mariposa, the Cathedral, and the Oil Rig in the original games.

Also remember, not every quest can be completed by every character. It's literally impossible to complete every quest in the game in one playthrough.

This cannot be overstated. I play very obsessive-compulsively to complete "everything" I can, and it's never possible. It's not that I can't complete the end-game quests for every faction. It's that MANY quests become unavailable- or impossible to complete -based on how I handled other, totally unrelated quests. One quest involves me killing someone who had their own quests with the party who wanted them dead. I couldn't do both, obviously. Several faction quests will cause potential companions to turn against or abandon you, and then you can't complete their quests.

Hell, it's technically not SUPPOSED to be possible to complete both Ghost Town Gunfight and I Fought The Law in the same game, but it can be done. However, from a gameplay perspective, this means avoiding the START of the game, so you can take care of business intended for later, just so you can BACKTRACK to the start of the game, rather than simply travel onwards from the very start. If you look at it from a thematic perspective, you're employing yourself out to a faction KNOWING that you intend to stab them in the back... as a "good guy"... so you're just contradicting yourself when you do that. Either way, why even bother?

The answer is simple: "...not every quest can be completed by every character. It's literally impossible to complete every quest in the game in one playthrough." You're not meant to do everything. No one could.

 

[FearMonkey]

Too much to reply to. :p

Anyway, as I've said, I'm just doing the "technical pacifist" route. That means if people die, people die. But it won't be me doing it in combat. Yes, I'll be skipping a lot of quests (I never expected all of them to have pacifist solutions, but certainly the main quests should), and yes, I'll be running away a lot, but that's the way I'm doing it.

My next playthrough will be the Stealth/Sniper. Then I might do the "true pacifist" playthrough once I know more about the quest structure and everything. It's just something I'd like to do, as a challenge, not as some kind of moral attitude.

Also, it was Obsidian themselves who were stressing that the game could be finished by killing nothing and also by killing everything. So, they very definitely had that goal in mind when they designed the game. And as such, some quests should have pacifist solutions that don't and there are some quests that absolutely don't and probably shouldn't have pacifist solutions, and that's fine.

I'll just use the "I Fought the Law" quest as an example. Here are my two choices:
1. Tell Eddie the NCR is going to attack and fight with them against the NCR.
2. Join the NCR in their fight against the Powder Gangers.

Now, when I talk to Lieutenant Hayes, there is a dialogue option that tells him that the Powder Gangers know they're coming and they should call off the attack, but he dismisses me immediately because this is all hush-hush. It's only when I say I want to be a part of the attack that he's willing to admit to the secret maneuvers against the NCRCF. That, to me, tells me that I think that during the design phase there was originally a speech check, or another kind of check that would be the "independent" choice where both sides just stayed status quo. This is all just speculation on my part, of course, but it's just weird that that dialogue choice is there only for Hayes to immediately dismiss it.

Regardless, though, it is what it is, and I'm just gonna leave that quest unfinished for a while. I'll come back to it later. I'll probably arm both sides (with pickpocket/reverse pickpocket) with only knives to make it as even a fight as possible and then wear the outfit of the winner whoever that is. That's as "independent" as I can do that.

My other choice is to go back to an old save game and not talk to Eddie at all so that quest doesn't end up in my quest log. Remember, I just don't like unfinished quests in my quest log. That's not a pacifist thing, that's just a personal OCD thing. :p

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Also, it was Obsidian themselves who were stressing that the game could be finished by killing nothing and also by killing everything. So, they very definitely had that goal in mind when they designed the game.

Yes, but (and I'm sure it was already said somewhere) "killing nothing" isn't the same as "noone dies". Similarly "finishing the game" isn't the same as "being able to do all the quests" in FO. You use the example of I fought the law but that isn't part of the main quest. Primm is probvably the place where they should have designed things a little better, but still technically you can move forward the main quest without killing anyone.

 

[FearMonkey]

Yes, but (and I'm sure it was already said somewhere) "killing nothing" isn't the same as "noone dies".

Yeah, I agree. The point is, the "technical pacifist" route is "no one dies by my hand but I can beat them up" and the "actual pacifist" is "no one dies by my hand". So I guess, technically, I can be an "actual pacifist" according to "definition", but personally I want no one to die at all. But that's just not possible, as you've all been telling me. I bow to your superior knowledge.

FYI, in that TV Tropes page I linked to, it says you can be an "actual pacifist" in Fallout 2. Assuming they're not wrong, I'm guessing their idea of actual pacifist is using speech to talk people into killing for you. Only way I can explain it. And that must be what I did when I did my pacifist playthrough. It was a long time ago, back when the game first came out, so I dunno for sure, but that sounds about right. *shrug*

Also, FYI, that's not me being a hypocrite, but just plain wrong about what constitutes "actual pacifist".

Similarly "finishing the game" isn't the same as "being able to do all the quests" in FO. You use the example of I fought the law but that isn't part of the main quest. Primm is probvably the place where they should have designed things a little better, but still technically you can move forward the main quest without killing anyone.

Yeah, I agree. And Primm is definitely what I'm annoyed at most. With Ghost Town Gunfight, I can avoid it. In Primm, there's just no good way to do it. Either someone dies due to my actions or Primm never gets a new Sheriff. They definitely had combat in mind when they designed that area.

Regardless, the option I chose still falls under the "actual pacifist" category, base on the definition at TV Tropes. Just not my personal definition. *shrug*

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

I think the matter isn't so much that you were confusing the ending of FO2 for being more or less pacifistic, but rather you're confusing what the original "non-violent playthroughs" were meant to be. The original games had a combat MODE; when you entered combat, everything else STOPPED. Fighting or not fighting was very distinct and separate, so players would beat the game by not getting into COMBAT.

That! Essence of Fallout peacefully walkthrough.

 

[FearMonkey]

So I'm in Novac now.

Let me get this straight.

I get positive Karma for luring the person who "killed" Boone's wife into a trap so that Boone can shoot their head off?

Really? o_O

Someone's got an odd sense of right and wrong here. Also, there's no proof the wife is dead yet. She was just sold into slavery. So maybe you can, I dunno, ask the person who sold them into slavery where Boone can find the person who bought his wife and track them down and perhaps rescue his wife who might still be alive? Obviously at this point I don't know if she's alive or not, but Boone sure seems sure.

Whatever. Moving on.

Now I have to sneak into a rocket facility without dying from feral ghouls. LOL. I love this. Stealth Boy to the rescue again I guess. :p

 

[Ilosar]

I get positive Karma for luring the person who "killed" Boone's wife into a trap so that Boone can shoot their head off?

She was just sold into slavery

She was a pregnant woman, sold into slavery to the Legion, a group that shows to have absolutely no respect for women, and who are going to take her baby away from her, to be either a slave or a meatsheild in their army. And it's implied to be all because Boone's wife didn't like Novac and was cold with the people there. Crawford was an immense bitch who totally got what she deserved if you ask me, what she did is just as bad if not worse than killing the poor girl.

Also, Fallout 1 gave you good karma for killing super mutants, who are mostly dim-witted victims of the Master's plan. Karma was badly implemented ever since the first game, it has no place in a grey world like Fallout's if you ask me.

Also, there's no proof the wife is dead yet

[spoiler:a02a52e142] Boone shot her to spare her and his child life in the Legion. She is very much dead. [/spoiler:a02a52e142]

Now I have to sneak into a rocket facility without dying from feral ghouls. LOL. I love this. Stealth Boy to the rescue again I guess. :p

[spoiler:a02a52e142] wait 'till you meet the invisible, giant sword toting Nightkins [/spoiler:a02a52e142]

 

[SnapSlav]

Yeah, hopefully you don't read Ilosar's spoiler tags, because that's REALLY major spoilers. Suffice it to say, New Vegas has AMAZING, RIVETING, MAGNIFICENT storytelling, and Boone's backstory is one of the best examples. Lots of the information you uncover in New Vegas, I would argue, is easily on par- if not far more compelling -than the revelation in FO2 about the true, sinister purpose behind the Vaults...

But anyway. Yes, she's very, very dead. And getting positive karma for helping Boone exact revenge on the perpetrator behind his wife's disappearance is NOT strange at all. When you uncover the details, it's nothing short of pure, psychotic, cold-blooded, calculated evil. It's the kind of evil that makes the citizens of Vault City look open-minded and benevolent. Exacting Boone's "justice" on that person is a very, VERY good thing, by normal standards, let alone post-apocalyptic standards...

Can't say ANYTHING the same about Come Fly With Me however. That's a really gimmicky and hilarious quest, filled with delightfully colorful characters, but it's not compelling or riveting in the slightest.

I have a question for you, and you probably don't have an answer yet, but I'm just curious... While playing the "technical pacifist", do you have any idea who you want to support for the battle of Hoover Dam, and ultimately who will win New Vegas? It's not really spoiler, but none of them are "the right choice", as even Caesar's Legion is a very "morally righteous" alternative in some lights, despite that faction being built as the universal villains for most of the game. But no matter which side you support, you'll become very closely acquainted with some disgusting, shady characters from all sides of the upcoming conflict...

 

[FearMonkey]

I want to go the "Independent" route if such a thing exists for Hoover Dam. I have no idea if there is one yet.

 

[Ilosar]

Sorry for the spoilers regarding Boone's wife. I did go a bit too far there, it's an interesting story to unfold.

Regarding the Independant ending;

[spoiler:385f91978f] There's one, and it's very rewarding. Potentially the best or second best possible ending if you do things right. It'll make itself known to you with a smile

Also, there's a companion that greatly approves of this option and will in general be useful/approving of your ''technical pacifist'' playthrough. Seek him out near Vegas, in the camp of a certain organisation of do-gooders from the original games.[/spoiler:385f91978f]

Also, will you do the DLCs? They are much less forgiving than the main game, especially Lonesome Road and Dead Money, and killing stuff is very much required to progress. You can however do Honest Hearts early, and it offers some options for a pacifist, but sadly I think a quest forces you to seek out and kill some enemies, IIRC. On the flip side, you can get a great non-lethal weapon. Old World Blues is hilarious and very well done, but again it requires a lot of combat, albeit almost exclusively against robots and hostile wildlife.

 

[SnapSlav]

There are 4 "main" endings, NCR, Legion, House, and Independent; however there are quite literally limitless different permutations of each, depending on how you handle the rest of your journey. For example, supporting the NCR could range from many groups and locations being placed until martial law, with very limited freedoms, effectively strangling the Mojave for the coming years. Alternatively, the NCR could end up peacefully and diplomatically annexing New Vegas, with local discomfort over uneven rights and disliked taxes being the extents of its downsides. Some places might be slaughtered, or policed. The leaders of the battle could end up steering the NCR toward friendly relations with New Vegas, or stern authoritarianism. Your karma, quests, and non-quest-related actions all factor into what ultimately becomes of the Mojave after the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, regardless of which ending you picked.

So, as I pointed out earlier, none of them are "the best choice". I personally prefer an Independent New Vegas, or one run by Mr. House as my favored endings, however each still has their downsides, and depending on how I handled the rest of the game, varying levels of "pacification" of the locals. But an Independent Vegas is probably the best suited to a "technical pacifist", because the other factions are much more stern and predisposed regarding some of the political decisions and tasks they would ask you to undertake. Meanwhile, as a mediator for a "free and independent Vegas", you have almost total freedom to decide how to go about setting up the Mojave's future.

(As a side note, compare this level of flexibility and player power in the matter of multiple endings to Bethesda's Fallout 3, where you got one and only one ending. There's a small level of deviation depending on your actions, but all they really amount to are the ending specifying "Group A triumphed over Group B, and there was much rejoicing" versus "Group A triumphed over Group B, and there was moderate rejoicing"...)

 

[FearMonkey]

Come Fly With Me completed with no kills by me and I only had to use 2 Stealth Boys. And then I found 7 Stealth Boys during the mission. So it was a profitable trip. :p

I hope those ghouls leave the entrance to the place so I can go in there whenever I want without having them attack me. >_<

(As a side note, compare this level of flexibility and player power in the matter of multiple endings to Bethesda's Fallout 3, where you got one and only one ending. There's a small level of deviation depending on your actions, but all they really amount to are the ending specifying "Group A triumphed over Group B, and there was much rejoicing" versus "Group A triumphed over Group B, and there was moderate rejoicing"...)

Yes, I'm aware of what a giant shit stain Fallout 3 is. :p

 

[SnapSlav]

Eh, it's always worth pointing out. Besides, a couple of your complaints felt like they lacked the context of what FO3 was...

And no, the ghouls outside REPCONN will continuously respawn- only those inside the facility are removed upon completing the Nightkin portion of the quest. If you're intended to Fast Travel to it (tsk tsk), then you can probably avoid any ghouls at all. Can't imagine what you'd want with the place, though. There's literally NOTHING of use there... save maybe some crafting items.

What did you use the 2 Stealth Boys for? Because, believe it or not, the ENTIRE Nightkin section of the quest can be handled simply with your own skill and timing, no Stealth Boys needed. (Of course, they make that section EASIER, no doubt...) If you needed 1 to reach the barricaded office on the top floor, then another to get past some of the indoor ghouls when the first wore off, that makes sense. Ah well, even if you "wasted" 1 on the Nightkin, you probably still wouldn't care, since you made a "profit" of 5 more Stealth Boys...

Definitely look forward to Boulder City, however. The quest you encounter there should be RIGHT up your alley! =)

 

[FearMonkey]

What did you use the 2 Stealth Boys for?

I used one to get by the ghouls outside REPCONN so I could sneak through the back door. Then I was able to sneak upstairs without alerting the ghouls until I had to enter that one area with the catwalks. Then I used my second stealth boy to get past them, talk with Jason and then get to the basement. I didn't use any Stealth Boys with the Night Kin or to get back up to Jason's area. For some reason on the way back up, the patrols were different so I was able to get up there without drawing attention to myself. Not sure if that was the game being nice or I got lucky. Either way, those were my two stealth boy uses. I just ran by the ghouls at the entrance after that to get the stuff needed to fix the rockets.

 

[SnapSlav]

I wouldn't say the patrols were "different" at all. On your way to the jail, there's only 2 Nightkin you need to worry about, one of them making a long patrol around the whole area, and the second which has a tendency to inspect the hallway leading to the jail. Once you finish your business in the jail and head back out, you'll be walking in the same direction as the main patrolling Nightkin- which makes it nearly impossible to run into him -so you really only need worry about alerting Mr. Curious. Since that's the trickiest part of the whole quest (unless you want to get Super Mutant kills for challenges/exp) I usually investigate the jails before I talk to Davison or Harland. Then again, the whole quest itself is really easy, so perhaps I just do that for the utmost convenience...

 

[FearMonkey]

I didn't use a Stealth Boy in the Night Kin area at all. It's when I left the basement and was back in the REPCONN area where I figured I had to use another Stealth Boy to get up to where Jason was. But I didn't. The patrols, by the ghouls, were different so I was able to sneak up there.

I also fully explored the basement area, once I told the Night Kin where the shipment they wanted was and they left, before heading back upstairs.

 

[fbjim]

Can't imagine what you'd want with the place, though. There's literally NOTHING of use there... save maybe some crafting items.

Not quite true, the Space Suit in the control room is nice, even though it looks really, really silly.

 

[SnapSlav]

Yes, that's what you get "as a reward" for Come Fly With Me, and in context with his comment that he wanted to RETURN to REPCONN, that means there's nothing left there, just like I said.