Feminism and why it's bad.

There actually isn't a pay gap. I think that's been proven.
No, there is a pay gap. Women earn far less than men. That's a simple statistical fact. The only controversy is over the reasons for that pay gap. The academic consensus is simply that it's a mix of factors: discrimination, sexual harassment, overtime work, family work, gender roles, education, mentoring, networks and I probably missed one or two here. Some, like Christina Hoff Sommers, would say that the pay between a man and a woman doing exactly equal work with equal education and experience is relatively small (but still existent!) and thus wave away all of those other issues. That's far too simplistic.

@Akratus: Is linking entire articles really that difficult? Context matters and all. Anyway, here it is. Wanna bet that the students saw those events very, very differently? For instance, if we look at his actual speech I can quite reasonably estimate that what was being booed was not specifically his suggestion that Blurred Lines not be banned, but these two paragraphs:

The PC paradox: in the very act of seeking to save minority groups from offence, it dehumanises those groups, lumping them all together as an indistinguishable mass; and it infantilises them, treating them as sorry creatures in need of protection from harm by the more enlightened, the more switched-on.




Let’s look at the case of Blurred Lines, which has been banned on more than 30 campuses in Britain. The justification given for this ban is that the song is “deeply offensive and dangerous” for women, and could “reinforce their shame and fear”. That, to me, is offensive — not to Robin Thicke, but to women. It suggests they don’t know know their own minds; it suggests they cannot hear a song without their self-esteem expiring.


Which shows that he didn't get what the actual problem with the song was. That's specifically about the way it reinforces not "shame and fear" in women in general, but how it repeats and reinforces victim-blaming rationalizations of rape. We know that victims of rape deal with a lot of shame and fear, that a lot of them question themselves about whether or not it's their fault that they got raped, and that a lot of that has to do with cultural messaging about women "leading on" men and the like. Blurred Lines is a problem because it is a part of that same discourse. His entire speech is a collection of crude misunderstandings of what is actually going on, which is why I'd guess he's being booed -- and why he doesn't understand why he's being booed. Similarly, the other time he was booed was that he was misinterpreting Bukhari's words as apologizing for murder, rather than examining the context within which those murders occurred. Once again, it is the speechwriter who does not understand what is actually going on.

EDIT: Next troll gets you a temp-ban, Akratus. Is it really that hard to just not hit that post button?
 
Truly there's no pay gap. It's all dependent on the job some women work. Some women just go into low paying jobs that don't pay much at all and of course there's a gap in between the women paid for higher paying jobs and low paying ones like what my mom works. I'd go into more detail but I'm eating a nice hotpocket. So I'll post these

http://thefederalist.com/2015/05/06/there-is-no-wage-gap-feminists-want-equal-pay-for-unequal-work/

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-wage-gap-myth-that-wont-die-1443654408

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303532704579483752909957472

Try checking it out.
 
The problem, Sn1p3r187, is that from the feminist perspective, that amount of women not in well paying jobs is evidence of a sexist system. The problem isn't how our system works, it's that there is an imbalance in our system at all. It's not so much a difference in fact as it is a difference of worldview.

The feminist arguments and conclusions Sander makes are all completely true, from his point of view. It is pointless to argue with him, lest as an exercise, because the things you type are filtered through his viewpoint as much as his are filtered through ours.

Only when you know a person well enough and they show that they consider all of the things you say for themselves, can you have a true discussion or debate.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
 
Last edited:
Actually, those articles state that there is a pay gap -- all of them concede that as a group, full-time working women are paid less than men -- they just say that they think the reasons for the existence of that pay gap don't present a problem, because it's a result of women's choices. Now, the academic literature disagrees that women's choices explain the full pay gap -- hiring and promotion discrimination, harassment, networking, mentoring and other factors that have nothing to do with their choices are consistently found to have an effect on women's pay. But even assuming that it all is a result of women's choices, stopping there and saying "okay done" instead of going "well but why are women making these choices" is incredibly shallow and often very misleading.

For instance, The Federalist claims that women who are never married earn 96 cents on the dollar -- still a pay gap of four cents mind you. This sounds like the pay gap is largely a result of women choosing to get married, right? Except unmarried full-time working women earn 96 cents on the dollar compared to all full-time working men, including married ones. This shows that effectively, women get punished for getting married and men don't (or to a much smaller extent) -- because men shift the burden of childcare onto their wives, while women almost never have the realistic choice of shifting the burden of childcare onto men. There's a massive Wikipedia page on this stuff.

Thus you can say that women choose to spend much more time with their families, but in many cases they don't really have a choice. Similarly, you can say that women don't choose careers that pay better, but why do those careers even pay better? And why don't women end up in them? A lot of that has to do with cultural messaging, male-oriented work cultures in those fields that shut out women, and societal choices to reward certain kinds of work more than others. Why, for instance, do we not pay women for all the domestic work they end up doing? That's a cultural choice, not a fact of life.

That is why in the United States, as a whole, the median weekly pay for full-time working women is currently $721 and for full-time working men $889 -- and the gap is growing. There is a pay gap. You just think it's not a problem.
 
I haven't researched it, but apparently in mid 2009 more women held paying jobs than men, in america.

Also fuck me, I'm coining a new term: Americentrism. Of course if you want to prove something is systematically shit you do it in america. Duh doy.

Also Sander,
tumblr_m32aeqkHCP1qhmwld.png
 
Last edited:
I haven't researched it, but apparently in mid 2009 more women held paying jobs than men, in america.
71 million men 20 years and older were employed in 2009 versus 64 million women, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. That includes part-time workers. So......nope?

Akratus said:
Also fuck me, I'm coining a new term: Americentrism. Of course if you want to prove something is systematically shit you do it in america. Duh doy.
Sure, that's the context in which we're discussing this because that's where most of the research is done. A lot of those effects hold across all OECD countries, though the specific numbers will be different.
 
Actually, those articles state that there is a pay gap -- all of them concede that as a group, full-time working women are paid less than men -- they just say that they think the reasons for the existence of that pay gap don't present a problem, because it's a result of women's choices. Now, the academic literature disagrees that women's choices explain the full pay gap -- hiring and promotion discrimination, harassment, networking, mentoring and other factors that have nothing to do with their choices are consistently found to have an effect on women's pay. But even assuming that it all is a result of women's choices, stopping there and saying "okay done" instead of going "well but why are women making these choices" is incredibly shallow and often very misleading.

For instance, The Federalist claims that women who are never married earn 96 cents on the dollar -- still a pay gap of four cents mind you. This sounds like the pay gap is largely a result of women choosing to get married, right? Except unmarried full-time working women earn 96 cents on the dollar compared to all full-time working men, including married ones. This shows that effectively, women get punished for getting married and men don't (or to a much smaller extent) -- because men shift the burden of childcare onto their wives, while women almost never have the realistic choice of shifting the burden of childcare onto men. There's a massive Wikipedia page on this stuff.

Thus you can say that women choose to spend much more time with their families, but in many cases they don't really have a choice. Similarly, you can say that women don't choose careers that pay better, but why do those careers even pay better? And why don't women end up in them? A lot of that has to do with cultural messaging, male-oriented work cultures in those fields that shut out women, and societal choices to reward certain kinds of work more than others. Why, for instance, do we not pay women for all the domestic work they end up doing? That's a cultural choice, not a fact of life.

That is why in the United States, as a whole, the median weekly pay for full-time working women is currently $721 and for full-time working men $889 -- and the gap is growing. There is a pay gap. You just think it's not a problem.
I have to call on that, and say you always have a choice. A reason why some women don't end up in those careers is simple, they didn't want the career or it's very high demanding on many people. Men and women alike and some can settle with something more simple. Why do careers pay better? Why doesn't McDonalds pay better than working as a Lawyer? Because there's a difference between a job and career and job gets used interjectionally a lot. Careers require some form of college education and pay a hell of a lot better for the knowledge and degree you've learned going to a university for 4 years than getting hired off the street. When it comes to male oriented work cultures. No one's really shunning them out. The women just choose not to go into a field dominated by men, but there are a few out there that do because they like breaking boundaries or they like the work to which I'd high five them for making something of themselves as I'd do anyone else. What about domestic work? It may not exactly be a cultural choice, it may as well be a personal choice of someone wanting to be a stay at home mom or dad. Or in some cases a woman becomes a construction worker, that's not exactly a cultural choice if she chose it because she's always like backbreaking work in the sun moving dirt and placing cement blocks in the ground. As for childcare, no one forced you to bear the burden of childcare. They have daycares and grandparents for those. Sorry off topic. I feel you forgot married couples without children in this case. As for 96 cents, well it's better than that 77 cent off the dollar that Obama says. And really 96 cents is not that bad, even if it is a gap it's a pretty small gap. And I feel you should have concern where women earn more than men like on places like GoDaddy.com. Not an issue but it's a concern

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...make-78-cents-for-every-dollar-earned-by-men/

http://wgno.com/2015/10/15/women-get-paid-more-than-men-at-godaddy/
 
If pay were actually equal, we would find as many places where women earned more money than men as we would the other way around -- because that's how random chance works. Instead, we get people questioning every single time they can find a single example of women earning more than men. Isn't that telling?

I find the rest of your post rather full of rationalizations of the status quo, and simple denials of reality. We have oodles of research showing the uneven burden of childcare (or rather, domestic work in general) -- again, that whole Wikipedia page has tons of it -- and to pretend that everyone has access to "daycares and grandparents" is weirdly disconnected from the reality of the situation. Daycares are really expensive, and there's a lot of cultural pressure not to send children to daycare but to take care of them in the family -- from spouses, too. To say that women "just choose" is a failure of intellectual curiosity. Why do women make different choices than men? Similarly, you deny that women are being shunned in male-dominated environemtns, yet we have oodles of research showing that male-oriented workplaces are very tough on women, tend to normalize sexual harassment, and discriminate against them. It is absolutely trivial to find these studies (and many, many more) with a few minutes on Google. This is not particularly disputed academic territory we're speaking of.

Moreover, these are just two examples of methods through which women earn less than men. There are many, many more avenues -- I named a whole bunch of them -- all supported by lots of academic research you can find quite easily.

Also I feel like you didn't actually read my post if you think I say the pay gap is actually 96 cents on the dollar. It's not. It's 77 cents on the dollar. The 96 cents is only for unmarried women compared to the entire male full-time labor force. Those are not equal comparisons!
 
In your heart you know my words to be true.

Perhaps instead of political clucking, you could. .

take up woodcrafting,
paint something,
do your homework,
start a journal,
or do chores around the house.

Just a couple suggestions.
 
If pay were actually equal, we would find as many places where women earned more money than men as we would the other way around -- because that's how random chance works. Instead, we get people questioning every single time they can find a single example of women earning more than men. Isn't that telling?

I find the rest of your post rather full of rationalizations of the status quo, and simple denials of reality. We have oodles of research showing the uneven burden of childcare -- again, that whole Wikipedia page has tons of it -- and to pretend that everyone has access to "daycares and grandparents" is weirdly disconnected from the reality of the situation. Daycares are really expensive, and there's a lot of cultural pressure not to send children to daycare but to take care of them in the family -- from spouses, too. To say that women "just choose" is a failure of intellectual curiosity. Why do women make different choices than men? Similarly, you deny that women are being shunned in male-dominated environemtns, yet we have oodles of research showing that male-oriented workplaces are very tough on women, tend to normalize sexual harassment, and discriminate against them. It is absolutely trivial to find these studies (and many, many more) with a few minutes on Google. This is not particularly disputed academic territory we're speaking of.

Moreover, these are just two examples of methods through which women earn less than men. There are many, many more avenues -- I named a whole bunch of them -- all supported by lots of academic research you can find quite easily.

Also I feel like you didn't actually read my post if you think I say the pay gap is actually 96 cents on the dollar. It's not. It's 77 cents on the dollar. The 96 cents is only for unmarried women compared to the entire male full-time labor force. Those are not equal comparisons!
I never denied women are shunned in a workplace. If it was 77 cents on the dollar, why didn't you just say that in your original post? You blantly stated that "The Federalist claims that women who are never married earn 96 cents on the dollar -- still a pay gap of four cents mind you."
You never offered any evidence that stated it was 77 cent to begin with or even implied that it was for unmarried women or married women. I can't say that personal choice is a failure of intellectual curiosity. Because it's not really a failure of intellectual curiosity if you "choose" to do something. Why do women think differently than men? Aren't we all supposed to think differently than one other? I'd really hate to meet a woman who thinks just like me because she'd show me how much of an ass I can be and how unbearable I can be. Aside from that, women can make different choices however they want to. If they want to be a stay at home mom. What's stopping them from doing that? It's their choice. If they want to be a detective then shoot for the stars and go for it. Yeah there are some places that are tough on women, but that's easily resolves by using that toughness as motivation to strive or better yet just find a different place for employment instead of working under an ass of a boss, or thirdly report your boss for harassment and if you're fired file for wrongful termination. What counts as sexual harassment these days? Is any guy making a pass on some nice looking girl in the workplace considered harassment? And lastly, not all male workplaces are very tough on women. I feel that's very bias as the person who wrote it hasn't visited every male dominated workplace in America.
 
In your heart you know my words to be true.

Perhaps instead of political clucking, you could. .

take up woodcrafting,
paint something,
do your homework,
start a journal,
or do chores around the house.

Just a couple suggestions.
Ehh I guess you're right. I'll save myself a headache for now. I need help in modding Fallout 2 anyway.
 
In your heart you know my words to be true.

Perhaps instead of political clucking, you could. .

take up woodcrafting,
paint something,
do your homework,
start a journal,
or do chores around the house.

Just a couple suggestions.
Ehh I guess you're right. I'll save myself a headache for now. I need help in modding Fallout 2 anyway.



 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sn1p3r187 said:
I never denied women are shunned in a workplace.
"When it comes to male oriented work cultures. No one's really shunning them out"
:confused:

Sn1p3r187 said:
You never offered any evidence that stated it was 77 cent to begin with or even implied that it was for unmarried women or married women.
"That is why in the United States, as a whole, the median weekly pay for full-time working women is currently $721 and for full-time working men $889"
(That's 81 cents on the dollar, but you get my drift)

See, this is why I said that I got the impression that you weren't really reading what I was writing. It's honestly even more obvious in this post that you're engaging in quick rebuttals to each point, typing out the established talking points and rationalizations without thinking about them. That's fine. I used to do it, too. It's just not particularly productive or interesting.

You're asking me to explain why women making different choices is a problem. Well, I explained that in the previous two posts. I explained why what you call a "choice" often isn't a choice, but the result of a culture forcing those choices on women. That's you plainly not even bothering to read what I'm writing with any kind of depth or attention.

Similarly, this thing about male-dominated workplaces is about women "choosing" not go into specific higher-paying careers. That's how this argument started. You said that they weren't shunned, I showed you that they were in a variety of ways. Your response then is that women can fix that by choosing to work elsewhere -- which proves my point. That is how women get shut out of male-dominated industries: by being faced with so many hardships that they switch to another career. One that doesn't pay as much. Yet you think that your point counters my argument, rather than supports it.

Continuing, your knee-jerk rationalization of sexual harassment is not how actual companies work. Sexual harassment rarely gets reported for a variety of reasons, including because women who do face retaliation. Yes, that's technically illegal. It still happens. Yes, there are HR departments -- and yet, a lot of sexual harassment complaints are concluded with nothing happening. I'd link you to studies, but this shit is on Wikipedia. It is trivially easy to find and it is clear that you have no interest in finding any of it, only coming up with the most hasty explanations for why none of this really matters.

I mean, I could deconstruct every one of your knee-jerk, hastily typed out counterarguments. But it's a waste of my time because it's painfully obvious you're not taking any of this seriously. It's why your posts aren't even internally consistent, let alone sufficiently address my arguments.
 
In your heart you know my words to be true.

Perhaps instead of political clucking, you could. .

take up woodcrafting,
paint something,
do your homework,
start a journal,
or do chores around the house.

Just a couple suggestions.
Ehh I guess you're right. I'll save myself a headache for now. I need help in modding Fallout 2 anyway.



(Dies of a heart attack from awesomeness) Brings a tear to my eye. :V
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You guys get engaged in those discussions, you kinda sometimes even start them, and when it heats up you kinda chicken out of it. :V
 
So why the fuck did you guys took this (by admision of the OP) Shit Troll thread through 19 pages?
 
Because OP's intentions didn't determine the course of this thread.
 
Back
Top