George Zimmerman, race and the NAACP

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Syphon, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. BonusWaffle

    BonusWaffle Still Mildly Glowing

    244
    Mar 6, 2013
    Its funny, i loved lectures, tests, and memorization, the things i hated were the class debates, games, and writing journals about your feelings on the subject. Just teach me the damn lesson so i can go home and do actual fun things.


    On a side note am i the only one who finds this extremely hilarious?

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/22/sanford-zimmerman-rescue/2575217/
     
  2. Syphon

    Syphon A Smooth-Skin

    632
    Jul 12, 2003
    Hilarious? Not really, seems to enforce my idea that he is a decent human being. This is probably just a "fluff" paper in hopes to die down the riots and protests .
     
  3. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Did he at any point shoot the SUV?

    Did the 911 dispatcher tell him to back off?


    I think the big loser in all this is Bernie Goetz. Shit, he hasn't done much of anything lately.
     
  4. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    cimm, thats hella funny :)

    911 dispatchers cannot tell you to do anything. because they have limited training, and they can only go based on untrained people, anything they tell you can do may be wrong.

    if you have a guy beating on your front door and yelling about how he is going to break down the door and kill you, a 911 operator will tell you to hide and wait for the cops and to not use that gun or any other weapons you may have.

    why? if they tell you to do something then it creates a legal liability on them.



    and yes, it is a lot the students.

    and you may have been part of the problem. how many times did you ridicule people who studied or tried to listen to the teachers. how many times did you make fun of the smart kids or nerds or geeks.

    you cant go into a school in america without seeing lots of bullying, especially twords the smart kids.
     
  5. Syphon

    Syphon A Smooth-Skin

    632
    Jul 12, 2003
    Earlier a couple of us had a discussion on limited education to the poor. I just wanted to say that I think this is absolutely bullshit!

    I got accepted in a community college for 2 years/ then 2 years toward university. I have a GED. And let me tell you, it pays to be a student. If your poor, your eligible for many financial programs that can help keep you and your family afloat during your studies. If you take the opportunity to ball out and get all A's, B's (regretfully) to get out of poverty, your financial aid will be generous. SEOG awards are also given that helped me out tremendously. So I don't want to hear that the government doesn't help when you try to invest in yourself and the system, figuring that your higher-wage job will bring in more taxes during your lifetime than what it cost initially to get you trained.

    So this whole argue that the Black community does not have the outlet to go to school and better their situation is bullshit. So if college isn't the problem, what is?
     
  6. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Stop arguing as if your own experience dictates what happens in the entire country to all people.

    Also, the education problem starts far earlier than college. And, not to be a dick, but community college is hardly comparable to a quality university.

    No one argues that there is no help, that there are no programs.
     
  7. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Hey guys some people can win awards, altho is a very small portion of the population, so OBVIOUSLY there is no problem with the education system.

    Also the black Community has kind of an unique history in the west, but specially the USA. While other minorities arrived to theior lands by their own choice or by having no other choice the Black community was brought against their will to work in inhumane conditions for the better part of the history of the USA.

    The problem is not simple, there isobviously an attitude problem but that problem comes from the context of their history in the USA, while there being an obvious problem with your education system in particular.
     
  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    what do you want to tell us with that? That all "poor" people are just ... lazy? :roll:

    for the fact that you brag so much about how you managed to get out of poverty, and getting support from the government you seem to be still pretty naive about the situation of lower class citizens and the problems and issues they have to face when trying to improve their situation. We are talking here about a multitude of problems, that goes much deeper then just money and how to earn it. Where children and teenagers grow up in very abusive environment, with their parents being eventually addicted maybe to to alcohol or suffering by mental issues and the like.
     
  9. Syphon

    Syphon A Smooth-Skin

    632
    Jul 12, 2003
    Sander, yes the community college was a breeze in comparison to the university. So if we both agree that community colleges are easier, why is the margin of success split between GED/college and not community/university? We're stuck with a huge portion of unskilled high-school level workers.

    Walpknut, what does that history lesson have anything to do with here and now?? There's not one person alive that can use that lame excuse for the cultural dysfunction that steers african-american children away from higher education. I'm not demonizing that community. But I do draw a conclusion when Chicago, Detroit, Flint, Compton, Miami, New York, Philadelphia, New Orleans, Atlanta have terrible crime rates caused by poor-people unwilling to invest in themselves and instead hurts society by committing crime. Then a crime-ridden neighborhood loses any value by the real estate market. Wealthier citizens and business no longer invests in the "hellhole" and eventually it looks like downtown Beirut. The citizens unfortunate to inhabit this wasteland were either born into it, or perpetuate its existence by slangin' or gangbangin' as a means to survive its condition. Its fucking terrible dude, and what white did has no fucking bearing on why it is the way it is. I refuse to consider my ancestors the reason why present-day people are living rough.

    Look back at the section reviewed and where the discussion is. I count the census amongst the participating user's to deem the cultural disconnect to the education path is severely hindered. IT IS not social mobility that is the problem, as in my previous post I informed that deeply poor people (myself) can make the gap and easily get an associates in 2 years (lower-middle class) and continue to work towards bachelors while working.

    Your point that younger-age education could be the problem is very plausible. And it could very well be. But what does younger-education mean? Does that mean outstanding elementary and middle school faculty? Does that mean various extra-curricular "after school" programs? There already is a spectacular after-school program called "Boys & Girls" club which has different wings , like an art lab, computer resource room, ect. Does early education mean early introduction into competent preschools? Education accounts for the average person 13 years of their life. That is a huge program run by the government and every student is a monumental investment when you think of it the whole term, not including collegiate participation.

    America desperately needs to get it right, because our success to hold an advanced economy affects all the third-world countries! a consumer-based economy is worth shit if your 99% is too poor to buy the "manufacturing" countries goods.
     
  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Thats because you actually didnt took your time to really read what Sander and others tried to explain ... as this is really totally out of context. This is like ... totally NOT what Sander explained here when he told you the way how history has still an effect on society even today.

    I mean english is not my native language ... and even I can see what his point is.
     
  11. Syphon

    Syphon A Smooth-Skin

    632
    Jul 12, 2003
    Crni Vuk, dude are you kidding me??? THOSE ARE EXCUSES bro. My dad smoked pot, did Coke, crack, drank until he left home to live like a roadie. Godbless that my mom is a dime so she could hoe to money bag men or me and my sisters would be dead. Don't tell me that mental disease can kill your dreams, I'm living it dude. Has your 13-day babygirl ever died in your arms? You ever bury your old man because the dope killed him? You ever been stabbed in the head because you were white? I've lived the hood. And if you don't see the problems, adjust to the bullshit and see what good/evil is, you'll stay there. I don't drink, I don't do drugs, I don't commit crime because I've seen what it does to people and the consequence. Excuses!
     
  12. Syphon

    Syphon A Smooth-Skin

    632
    Jul 12, 2003
    Well thats because it was directed to Walpknut, and not Sander?

    ^This was for Sander.
     
  13. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    are there programs to help everyone that is a minority or living in poverty?

    no.

    are there programs to help minorities or people in poverty on the individual level?

    yes.

    but a lot of it is the self-destructive sub-culture they live in. they have to be willing to break from their cultural situation and get out.

    too many of them think it is hopeless when it is not.

    too many of them hope for their "one in a million" shot of being a NFL/Basketball/Baseball pro-athlete. or rappers/hip-hop/other musicians.

    its a culture that dismisses success through hard work and "putting your dues in".

    oh, and its also parents who are not working to provide a healthy environment for their children to succeed. and also for giving them "cultural" names which have been proven many times to hurt your chances of success. yes, it can be overcome, but its another speed bump parents put in the way of their children.
     
  14. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Don't double post, Syphon. Use the edit button.

    Every time someone goes "I did, why can't they" a baby dies. Empirical data shows us that no, it's not that easy. You can't take your own experience and extrapolate that to an entire culture, drawing massive conclusions along the way.


    Look, the fact is that this is a very complicated matter and your simplifying it perpetuates a problem.

    Yes, past racial problems have absolutely caused ghetto-formation and many of these issues. Look at the housing projects from the 1950s and 1960s, for instance. Many of them did nothing more than cram as many poor black people together as they could.

    And also, current discrimination is still part of the problem, too. Whether or not the issue is culture (which to me is much too simplistic and used as a general way to say 'fuck em', which is horrendous), we actually see similar problems with other population groups, including poor, rural whites for instance. Poverty as a whole in the US is hard to overcome, it's just a little harder for black people, and they're more likely to be poor because of historical circumstances that really, didn't happen that long ago -- and are still ongoing in some cases.

    But that goes back to guilt, and guilt doesn't matter. What matters is how you find solutions. And part of those solutions has to be a real, realistic recognition of the problems. And to do so you cannot just glide by historical circumstances. You can't just stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that how this situation came to be is irrelevant -- because it isn't.

    What we're actually stuck with is a huge portion of unemployed people, skilled or not. But that's a little beside the point.

    These are complicated, structural problems. A large part of the problem lies in education people receive before they even get to community college. Part of it lies in the value people place on community college (which isn't that high, and probably rightly so). Part of it is that people don't know how to traverse the system and make it work to their benefit. Part of it is that there is a lot of discrimination.

    And maybe part of it is a cultural issue. But there's very little evidence to support that statement, it's not a necessary hypothesis to explain the problems and, more importantly, it doesn't change a thing about the solutions.

    And it is also important to remember that if it is a cultural problem, that culture arose for a reason. And that reason isn't that they're lazy, or structurally dependent on handouts, no matter how much some people keep yelling that.

    This is what we call an ignorant stereotype.

    Oh, it's not our fault. It's just that they don't look up to the right people! It's just that they want the quick path to wealth!

    Let's ignore that that's true for almost everyone, anyway. Do you actually have any supporting evidence other than your anecdotal observations and just-so stories?

    You do realize that what you're describing is institutional racism, right?
     
  15. UniversalWolf

    UniversalWolf eaten by a grue.

    Aug 28, 2005
    I just wanted to applaud your Bernie Goetz reference. Heh.
     
  16. Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude

    Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jul 9, 2004
    Current black living conditions are more a symptom of white flight (See: Detroit) than discrimination. When blacks move into an area and crime rates soar, obviously whites who can afford to are going to just pack up and leave. Once the whites leave, everything collapses and the blacks are left blaming whitey for the destruction and decay that they themselves caused entirely through their own actions.

    At what point do we stop making excuses for them, and demand personal responsibility?

    Everyone has some primal mistrust of that other guy who doesn't look like him. There's nothing you can do about that outside of race-mixing human until we're all the same shade of brown. Even then, we'll still hate each other based on religion, sports affiliation, politics, or even because you're from that asshole town down the road. That's just something we have to deal with because it's never going away.

    Sounds nice, but what do you propose as a realistic solution? It's easy to say "We've got to do something!" and then sit back and pat yourself on the back for being so forward thinking and progressive.

    But it is a cultural issue. One only needs to talk to a white teacher in a black school and they'll tell you the same stories and relay the same experiences, all the way from California to Georgia.

    Also, I'm still waiting these elusive solutions you keep proposing.

    Please enlighten us on your theory as to why they are the way they are. I am genuinely interested.

    It's true, though. You never went to a high % Black school, so you're excused on that one. But it's true, they sit in the back of class writing raps when they aren't busy screaming, throwing things, and attacking other students. What do you want to be? "IMON RAP". Nuff' said.



    Again, that's true. If a black kid says he wants to be like Neil Degrasse Tyson when he grows up, the other blacks will bully the shit out of him. I've seen all of that first hand. It's rather interesting: white kids have a variety of different subcultures, they are very diverse. If you're black you either act like every other black or you're treated like shit and bullied. They're infinitely more intolerant than whites of someone who doesn't fit their definition of "normal".

    That's not racism, it's discrimination; but can you really blame someone for thinking that way? Let's say you're in charge of hiring and need to fill a position. Your quota dictates that you need a black female, so every other application goes into the trash. You have two remaining job applications in front of you. One is Lashawndra Kehdarius, and the other is Emily Smith. Both are black, fresh out of highschool, and have no prior experience or references listed.

    Without interviewing them, which would you wager is going to be the better employee? Obviously you're betting on Ms. Smith. The fact that she has a normal name tells us that she most likely had responsible parents who cared about her future, is probably middle class, and is well-spoken and educated.

    Lashawndra, on the other hand, has more than likely been imbued with toxic black "culture" since birth, and is going to be another Rachel Jeantel. It's a lot to assume just from a name, but real world experience tells us that it's correct more often than not.

    It's not fair, I know, but neither is the fact that good white/asian/hispanic job applications are discarded because affirmative action quotas need to be met.
     
  17. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Hey, somebody has to lighten up the humorless sanctimony that is NMA. Fucking haughty, like this is the UN Comittee on Redressing Racial I couldgiveafuckless and not some wanky forum about an old computer game. People got some really narrow reality tunnels and medieval notions about melanin.

    Been around the carousel too many times. Seen all this shit before, and better in the 70s-80s crime waves, race riots and Reagan backlash. America so much safer and overdeveloped now, media needs to hype these strokeshows to keep the bourgeois agita up.
     
  18. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    That's happening all the time. When you have a capitalist society with limited social spending (and yes, there's limited social spending in the US compared to every other developed country), then you are demanding personal responsibility, because otherwise they're in trouble. And in fact, even with personal responsibility a lot of people are still in trouble. The problem facing the economy right now isn't exactly that people don't want to work, after all. It's that there's very little work to be had.


    What happens in the United States is by and large a poverty trap. And that's the core issue that eventually has to be addressed for any of this to change. For poor people across race boundaries. It's just that black people face some additional challenges and are on average finding themselves in worse circumstances because of historical circumstances.


    The fact is that whitey is to blame for a crapload of the problems black people (and poor people in general) face, historically and still today. The fact that people want to brush that aside as an excuse when it's reality is troubling. It doesn't help anyone. To address problems you need to understand their cause. And racial issues and oppression are part of why we are where we are today.

    Not funding primary education locally, but start doing it on a larger scale. Investing more in education (and especially primary education) in general. Drastically decrease college tuitions. Ideally, get rid of private primary education to avoid those problems we're seeing now.

    Expand housing voucher programs to counteract ghetto formation.

    Remove drug prohibition. That would fix a slew of problems, right there.

    Stop profiling. Stop cumbersome stop-and-frisk procedures. In general, stop treating a portion of your population as more criminal than another. Whether or not those things work, they are part of the problem, too -- because they create that culture where black people feel like they're treated differently. Because they are.

    Get rid of unpaid internships (which give a leg up to anyone who can afford to be unpaid for two years -- hint: not poor people).

    Reform your voting system -- the first-past-the-post system encourages too much partisanship and eliminates middle ground. And all of that makes it more difficult to enact many of the reforms that are needed.

    More comprehensive welfare would help, too. Better health care. Overall, become a more socialist state. Because to address these issues you need to address the underlying issue of poverty -- and all the evidence we have suggests that the social-democratic states do a much better job of addressing poverty than the more free-market United States.



    No, these aren't easy solutions. Yes, they are expensive solutions. Yes, they will require a raise in taxes. No, they won't see instant results. No one said it was easy. But it's a damn sight better than looking sternly at poor people and pretending that all they need to be is more responsible.

    Anecdotal evidence isn't much evidence at all, really.

    But ask yourself -- why would there be a cultural difference there?


    Go read through the entire thread please.

    Is it? Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence to back that up? And how many white people do you think want to be Baseball players or guitar players? How many want to be astronauts or race car drivers or something else they're never going to be? Why do you think that somehow this is a cause of the issue, rather than a symptom?

    Whether I can blame them or not isn't the point. It is still racist. And yes, racist, because clearly those names are tied to race.

    I can't really blame a 1920s businessman for not hiring the black guy to be the car salesman, because he'll do less business. But that was still part of the problem.
     
  19. Mad Max RW

    Mad Max RW Mildly Dipped

    520
    Jan 12, 2004
    Do you have any idea how much money the federal government already puts into education? (Hint: it's WAAAAAAAAY more than the rest of the world). While private schools and universities have to beg for loans. Since I work in this field and you don't, I can comfortably say your proposal is the exact opposite of what is needed. I even explained earlier in this thread what the problem is and why college tuition is going up. I live it. You don't.

    This is from 2 years ago: http://mat.usc.edu/wp-content/uploads/us-schools-vs-international3.jpg
    It's actually grown since then. We're currently spending over $12,000 for each gradeschool/highschool student and $16,000 per state college student. In reality it's much higher because financial aid helps provide housing among many other things. My nearly bankrupt state celebrates an average $100,000 for 1 year of an illegal immigrant's college education. The CT Department of Education holds a big annual conference inviting the administration from every school to attend. That was literally the theme of last year's conference and our president was ready to explode. How many American kids could have gotten a proper education with that money, graduate, then add something to the economy? Instead they are investing in something that will never have a return. This isn't an isolated incident.

    I know what I'm talking about here. I've been knee deep in the mess for years. You should take my word as gospel, not wikipedia.
     
  20. Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude

    Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jul 9, 2004
    Dumping more money into public education doesn't fix the problem that the majority of black students just have no interest in learning. You can keep throwing money at the problem, but as you can see that doesn't really change anything.

    So you're an advocate of having the middle class foot the bill so that black families get a free ride to a nice neighborhood, while they themselves are struggling to pay the bills and deal with debt? No fucking thanks.

    I actually agree with this.

    They're treated differently because they commit more violent crimes than any other racial group. They are more criminal than any other portion of the population. You can't get around those statistics.

    I agree with this as well.

    Agreed, but that's never going to happen. The two party system isn't going anywhere.

    Expanding welfare isn't what I would call a reasonable solution. The middle class is already being crushed under the weight of the poor/lazy. The system is broken beyond belief (see: welfare cliff), and further expanding it discourages people from actually working. Why slave away at a 9-5 job when you can sit at home all day, eating free food, watching free tv, doing drugs paid for by bartering with your EBT, and fucking and plopping out more kids to neglect and abuse to receive more benefits?

    Don't tell me you can't see the difference between looking up to doctors and astronauts vs thug rappers/football/basketball players. I'm also not talking about elementary school children with big dreams, I'm talking about highschool students.