Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude said:
At what point do we stop making excuses for them, and demand personal responsibility?
That's happening all the time. When you have a capitalist society with limited social spending (and yes, there's limited social spending in the US compared to every other developed country), then you are demanding personal responsibility, because otherwise they're in trouble. And in fact, even with personal responsibility a lot of people are still in trouble. The problem facing the economy right now isn't exactly that people don't want to work, after all. It's that there's very little work to be had.
What happens in the United States is by and large a poverty trap. And that's the core issue that eventually has to be addressed for any of this to change. For poor people across race boundaries. It's just that black people face some additional challenges and are on average finding themselves in worse circumstances because of historical circumstances.
The fact is that whitey is to blame for a crapload of the problems black people (and poor people in general) face, historically and still today. The fact that people want to brush that aside as an excuse when it's reality is troubling. It doesn't help anyone. To address problems you need to understand their cause. And racial issues and oppression are part of why we are where we are today.
Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude said:
Sounds nice, but what do you propose as a realistic solution? It's easy to say "We've got to do something!" and then sit back and pat yourself on the back for being so forward thinking and progressive.
Not funding primary education locally, but start doing it on a larger scale. Investing more in education (and especially primary education) in general. Drastically decrease college tuitions. Ideally, get rid of private primary education to avoid those problems we're seeing now.
Expand housing voucher programs to counteract ghetto formation.
Remove drug prohibition. That would fix a slew of problems, right there.
Stop profiling. Stop cumbersome stop-and-frisk procedures. In general, stop treating a portion of your population as more criminal than another. Whether or not those things work, they are part of the problem, too -- because they create that culture where black people feel like they're treated differently. Because they are.
Get rid of unpaid internships (which give a leg up to anyone who can afford to be unpaid for two years -- hint: not poor people).
Reform your voting system -- the first-past-the-post system encourages too much partisanship and eliminates middle ground. And all of that makes it more difficult to enact many of the reforms that are needed.
More comprehensive welfare would help, too. Better health care. Overall, become a more socialist state. Because to address these issues you need to address the underlying issue of poverty -- and all the evidence we have suggests that the social-democratic states do a much better job of addressing poverty than the more free-market United States.
No, these aren't easy solutions. Yes, they are expensive solutions. Yes, they will require a raise in taxes. No, they won't see instant results. No one said it was easy. But it's a damn sight better than looking sternly at poor people and pretending that all they need to be is more responsible.
Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude said:
But it is a cultural issue. One only needs to talk to a white teacher in a black school and they'll tell you the same stories and relay the same experiences, all the way from California to Georgia.
Anecdotal evidence isn't much evidence at all, really.
But ask yourself -- why would there be a cultural difference there?
Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude said:
Please enlighten us on your theory as to why they are the way they are. I am genuinely interested.
Go read through the entire thread please.
Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude said:
Is it? Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence to back that up? And how many white people do you think want to be Baseball players or guitar players? How many want to be astronauts or race car drivers or something else they're never going to be? Why do you think that somehow this is a cause of the issue, rather than a symptom?
Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude said:
That's not racism, it's discrimination; but can you really blame someone for thinking that way?
Whether I can blame them or not isn't the point. It is still racist. And yes, racist, because clearly those names are tied to race.
I can't really blame a 1920s businessman for not hiring the black guy to be the car salesman, because he'll do less business. But that was still part of the problem.
