Hell is not frozen yet! (Diablo 3)

[aenemic]

I agree.

Could you imagine Diablo being turn based? The game would be completely different. Probably wouldn't be nearly as many enemies to kill at once.

everything turn-based is automatically better? that's a pretty narrow way of looking at things.

do you happen to have a quote or something on when Diablo was supposed to be turn-based and when the Evil Lord Blizzard decided that it no longer should, and killed 300 virgins in the process?

 

[Kyuu]

everything turn-based is automatically better? that's a pretty narrow way of looking at things.

Where from his post did you get that he was saying turn-based is automatically better? I actually thought he was remarking favorably on the choice to go with real-time combat.

 

[aenemic]

everything turn-based is automatically better? that's a pretty narrow way of looking at things.

Where from his post did you get that he was saying turn-based is automatically better? I actually thought he was remarking favorably on the choice to go with real-time combat.

"Probably wouldn't be nearly as many enemies to kill at once." sounded like sarcasm to me. maybe I've just been hanging around NMA too much though

sorry if I misinterpeted your post, TorontRayne.

 

[Ilosar]

Yeah, I didn't read an ounce of sarcasm either. Massive battles where you lone character kills dozens of enemies is a staple of Diablo if there ever was one. Such scale is not really possible on an individual basis in turn-based combat. I mean, imagine battles with more than 10 actors in Fallout 1 and 2. Looooong and gets boring after a while.

 

[fedaykin]

A turn-based Diablo would have been fantastic.

 

[TorontoReign]

Yeah, no sarcasm intended. Diablo would suck as a turn based game IMO. Large mobs of enemies work better with RT. Just my opinion though.

 

[Surf Solar]

Because the number of enemies can't be tweaked according to the battle system used, aswell the animations can't be sped up amirite

I would have loved to see a game using the Diablo I graphics and moods where you actually have to think, a true TB dungeon crawler. Diablo I has truely good atmosphere (they failed to reach the same level again in II ) I am not saying that D I and II aren't good how they are, but thinking about what they could actually have become it makes my brian hurt.

DIII? Nothing to be said about this turd.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

I mean, imagine battles with more than 10 actors in Fallout 1 and 2. Looooong and gets boring after a while.

That's until they invented concurrent turns You should try out some of the recent Co8 modules for TOEE before saying turn-based can't handle large numbers of enemies well...

I do agree that it'd get old rather quickly in the Diablo-esque h&s context.

 

[Crni Vuk]

well that was the whole fun about Jagged Alliance, to see more then 50 characters on the screen (well with a few mods that was possible, usually you never had more then 30 enemy soldiers around).

It can work. If done right.

But I personally think that Diablo is better with real time combat. Simply because that show I know it. And it gives it a very fast gameplay.

With saying that I would not mind to see a tactical TB dungeon crawler either. But it would really require a good TB gameplay.

 

[OakTable]

Well, I just got Diablo 2 and its expansion. What class should I play first?

EDIT: And to keep a little more on-topic, how did the skill system change in Diablo 3? I'm a little confused about it because I missed the beta.

 

[aenemic]

EDIT: And to keep a little more on-topic, how did the skill system change in Diablo 3? I'm a little confused about it because I missed the beta.

instead of skill-trees like the ones in Diablo 2, you simply have a set of skills that you automatically unlock at different levels without having to put skill-points in them. thus, these skills do not increase in level, but can be adjusted to your liking with runes that also open up at different levels. you can assign one rune at a time to a skill, and they add something new to the skills basic functions (such as, increasing number of enemies hit, or adding more armor penetration).

you don't get a set of skills to choose from right away, but one skill at level one and then they get unlocked one by one as you keep levelling. you are also restricted to 6 skills at a time - one for each mouse button, and one for the number keys 1 through 4. normally, certain skills are assigned to a specific button/key, but there's an option in the game settings that allows you to re-assign them.

hope that helped. if not, maybe someone else can explain it better.

 

[Crni Vuk]

does not sound to different from Diablo 2, I mean you didnt used more then a hand full of skills there either. I realise that now as I play again a barbarian. Lots of skills. Though only a few them are really viable. Particularly in the later part of the game. Its similar for many of the other classes.

 

[aenemic]

does not sound to different from Diablo 2, I mean you didnt used more then a hand full of skills there either. I realise that now as I play again a barbarian. Lots of skills. Though only a few them are really viable. Particularly in the later part of the game. Its similar for many of the other classes.

you pretty much already said that in this thread and I'll say the same thing I said back then: that's a problem with balancing the game, not with too many skills.

besides, I don't really care if there's one way to build your character that is so much better than the rest. I care about having fun when I play, experimenting with my character build and being able to fuck up because I made poor choices. isn't that why we love Fallout? or do we think there's too many skills, attributes and perks to choose from when there's actually only one or two ways to create a really powerful character?

and what's the point of power-gaming when you're forced to do it? let those who want to power-game do so, but let people who don't mind a challenge learn by trial and error.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

Lack of customization? Yeah, totally.

Diablo 2 Barbarian skill progression

Level 1:
Bash
Howl
Find Potion

Level 6:
Leap
Double Swing
Taunt
Shout

Level 12:
Stun
Double Throw
Find Item

Level 18:
Leap Attack
Concentrate
Battle Cry

Level 24:
Frenzy
Battle Orders
Grim Ward

Level 30:
Whirlwind
Berserk
War Cry
Battle Command

=========================

Diablo 3 Barbarian skill progression

1 Bash
2 Hammer of the Ancients
3 Cleave
4 Ground Stomp
5 Rend
6 Bash Clobber Rune
7 Hammer of the Ancients Rolling Thunder Rune
8 Leap
9 Ancient Spear
9 Cleave Rupture Rune
-
11 Frenzy
11 Rend Ravage Rune
12 Seismic Slam
12 Ground Stomp Deafening Crash Rune
13 Revenge
13 Bash Onslaught Rune
14 Weapon Throw
14 Leap Iron Impact Rune
15 Hammer of the Ancients Smash Rune
15 Ancient Spear Grappling Hooks Rune
16 Sprint
17 Threatening Shout
17 Frenzy Sidearm Rune
18 Cleave Reaping Swing Rune
18 Ground Stomp Wrenching Smash Rune
18 Seismic Slam Stagger Rune
19 Earthquake
19 Rend Blood Lust Rune
19 Revenge Vengeance is Mine Rune
20 Whirlwind
21 Furious Charge
21 Leap Launch Rune
21 Weapon Throw Mighty Throw Rune
22 Battle Rage
22 Ignore Pain
22 Frenzy Triumph Rune
23 Ancient Spear Skirmish Rune
23 Sprint Rush Rune
23 Threatening Shout Intimidate Rune
24 Earthquake Giant's Stride Rune
24 Whirlwind Dust Devils Rune
25 Call of the Ancients
25 Seismic Slam Shattered Ground Rune
25 Revenge Best Server Cold Rune
25 Weapon Throw Richochet Rune
26 Overpower
26 Bash Punish Rune
26 Battle Rage Marauder's Rage Rune
26 Ignore Pain Bravado Rune
27 Hammer of the Ancients The Devil's Anvil Rune
27 Furious Charge Battering Ram Rune
28 War Cry
28 Ground Stomp Trembling Stomp Rune
28 Threatening Shout Falter Rune
29 Sprint Run Like the Wind Rune
29 Earthquake Chilling Earth Rune
29 Whirlwind Hurricane Rune
29 Overpower Storm of Steel Rune
30 Wrath of the Berserker

31+ Another 72 assorted runes

===

A Diablo 2 Barbarian will finish Normal difficulty with 20 different skills to choose from.

A Diablo 3 Barbarian will finish Normal difficulty (level 30, per Bashiok's confirmation) with 59 (FIFTY-NINE) different skills to choose from. He will continue gaining skills after level 30 all the way up to level 60 at the rate of about 2 new runes to try per level, for another 72 (SEVENTY-TWO) skills left to be earned by the end of Normal, or a total of 131 different skills to select by the time he's just about to start Inferno difficulty.

Well, I just got Diablo 2 and its expansion. What class should I play first?

The Necromancer can go from normal through hell without needing any farmed gear without much trouble.

http://www.diablofans.com/page/tool...01100k0000001111110110l0l0l0l0l0l000000000l00

Once you've got your skeleton army + clay golem rolling, just sit back and cast amp damage as they mow through everything. Grab a mercenary in Act 2 (Combat) which will provide a healing aura for you and your skeletons. Once you hit Act 3, you'll want to start using Corpse Explosion (Amp Damage boosts CE damage, as it's half physical) which will significantly improve your killing speed. For Diablo/Baal, use Decrepify instead of Amp Damage.


You can beat Hell naked with this setup, so for stats just do a 4/1 split with Vitality/Energy. You can get by without putting any points in energy, but I wouldn't advise it without decent gear as Corpse Explosion spam is super mana-intensive.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Lack of customization? Yeah, totally.

With all honesty, I think you're missing the point of the word "customization". D3's system does sound a bit more railroady, regardless of the number of skills it offers.

In the end it's not gonna matter though, because like any MMO-like game, soon after the release someone will decide that the X, Y and Z builds are the only ones allowed, and everyone else is gimp. Customization is overrated

 

[Crni Vuk]

you pretty much already said that in this thread Razz and I'll say the same thing I said back then: that's a problem with balancing the game, not with too many skills.

I know I know, I am dense what should I say

No, seriously. I agree of course. I would prefer many balanced skills instead of just a handful you can use in the end.

But I am talking about Diablo 2 here and the way how the skills worked there comparing it with what people say about Diablo 3. And it seems to me like there is this idea Diablo 2 had a ton of awesome skills which I simply don't see really.

I mean first thing first, equipment was always the MOST important part about Diablo. And particularly when you play in the high difficulty you realize that. And only a few builds and skill have proved to be really useful. in Diablo 2 you create your character around the equipment, not the other way. What does it help to have a frenzy barbar when you have the immortal king set?

But to be honest, the skills you had have been "ok" most of the time. What really disturbed me was how some builds have been incredible effective while others not so much. It was close to exploiting in some cases. For example giving characters access to the skills of another class. A paladin with the ability to of the "bo" from the barb? Or the enigma armor with teleportation? But the worst of all. Characters that can do a run with 8 people on the hardest difficulty all alone. To have strong characters is alright. But I would love to see here more consistency. because honestly I am to old to play a game with kidz showing me their e-penis constantly in my face telling me how "shit" my character/class is just because I love to play it. Hey there champ! Not everyone wants to play the same Paladin class which is using almost exploits to his advantage.

 

[.Pixote.]

Yeah, no sarcasm intended. Diablo would suck as a turn based game IMO. Large mobs of enemies work better with RT. Just my opinion though.

But if you halved the amount of enemies, but doubled their difficulty, then the whole game could work. 99% of Diablos enemies are just canon fodder. That's what I hated about Diablo 2, the game just had too much of everything (mind you it was beautifully made), too many enemies (numbers), too many items, too many dungeons, too many skills. I watched people play the game for hours just trying to get a rare weapon, WTF.

 

[aenemic]

Lack of customization? Yeah, totally.

wipe that smug grin off your face and count the actual skills instead

the Barbarian has 22 active skills, of which a maximum of 6 can be used at a time. runes don't count as individual skills in my book, as they are unique for each skill and don't really give you anything new but rather a bonus to your already existing skill.

and then there are 16 passive skills, of which only 8 will be unlocked before level 30. at level 30 you can use 3 passive skills at a time, which is the maximum.

so your calculations are a tiny bit off. either way, I never said there's no customization. what I didn't like in the beta is that you're forced to use the same set of skills, and choices only really open up towards the end of it. and that's how the game is going to work: you don't get to choose your path, which skills to focus on, but simply have to wait a few level for something new to open up. don't like your new skill? well, you'll have to wait yet a few more levels to see if the next one is to your liking.

it's a different kind of customization that really doesn't allow for much customization at all until you're pretty far into the game (at level 30, when you finish normal - which is probably when a lot of people stop playing a character and start a new one, or are sick of the game - you don't even have close to your full skill/rune setup). it's too early to tell how well it will work, of course. but my main complaint was that I didn't get to choose at all from the start how to build my character. and I doubt the rate of skill/rune unlocks will actually increase, rather than decrease on later levels.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

Lack of customization? Yeah, totally.

With all honesty, I think you're missing the point of the word "customization". D3's system does sound a bit more railroady, regardless of the number of skills it offers.

In the end it's not gonna matter though, because like any MMO-like game, soon after the release someone will decide that the X, Y and Z builds are the only ones allowed, and everyone else is gimp. Customization is overrated

D3 is "Railroady"? Either you never seriously played D2, or you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. In D2 there was a TINY handful of builds for each class that weren't trash, and once you started that character down that path there was no turning back (Until they finally wised up and patched in respeccing). Leveling up brought fractional damage increases to one or two abilities that you would spam the entire game. Enough Strength for gear, the rest in Vitality. Maybe throw in enough Dex for Max Block if you're into that sort of thing. That's about as fucking "railroady" as it gets.

In D3, you're given something new and exciting pretty much every time you level up. Skill selection is no longer picking one button to mash for the rest of that character's career, but creating a kit that fits your playstyle. Take a look at the D3 character forums. The fact that nobody can even come close to agreeing what the "best" build will be seems like a pretty good sign to me. There will always be a mathematically superior build, that's something you can't avoid; but as long as the difference between the "best" and "everything else" is extremely small, then who gives a shit.

Anyway, see you at launch.

 

[alec]

That's what I hated about Diablo 2, the game just had too much of everything (mind you it was beautifully made), too many enemies (numbers), too many items, too many dungeons, too many skills. I watched people play the game for hours just trying to get a rare weapon, WTF.

I totally agree. I thought it was way too big a game compared with the original, especially with the LOD expansion added to it.

I still can't believe I finished Diablo 2 in single player... Seems like madness now.

Also: Diablo 3 is the only new game I'm going to buy in years.