I'd support Ceasars Legion except [Insert answer here]
- Thread starter Felspawn
- Start date
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
And then he burns their villages, wipe away their very identities, rapes some women before enslaving them all (bias of culture replaced by bias of sex, real improvement there...), indoctrinates the children, and forces the remaining men into his slave army.
Really, the big problem is that Ceasar goes to such extremes for no discernable reasons. There's no need to pillage and burn if you want to build en empire, you're just wasting resources. There's no need to deny women to serve you, apart from being cannon fodder... err honorable front-line combatants they are equally as capable as men in such an army as his. There's no need to forsake technology so much that most of your soldiers use machetes and football equipment (and anyway he is an hypocrite about it, he has no trouble using the auto-doc to heal himself, or an advanced close-combat weapon).
quotetheraven90
First time out of the vault
Yeah, but at least with NCR and Yes Man, I could work it out. NCR blessed me with their infamy, and Yes Man...well, he's sorta sarcastic about it. Caesar? Fuck him and his tumor.
It's Felicia Day's fault I'm kinda warm up to BoS in the first place. If not for Veronica's quest which humanized them a lot, I'll gladly tore them apart after getting power armor perk.
Wintermind
Vault Senior Citizen
I'll John Doman over Felicia Day any day.
The Enclave 86
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
I'd support Caesar except he'd more than likely slow his war with the NCR down if he took Vegas, didn't he want to make it his capital? He might start trying to actually do something civilised, give the NCR time to recooperate after the defear and come back to kick his ass.
If a monster like Lanius was in charge then I imagnie he wouldn't stop his assualt, ploughing straight through the Mojave Outpost, around Death Valley/The Divide and straight into Shady Sands. Admitidly the Legion would like end up destroying itself but that's the only way I can see it doing real and threatening damage to the NCR.
If a monster like Lanius was in charge then I imagnie he wouldn't stop his assualt, ploughing straight through the Mojave Outpost, around Death Valley/The Divide and straight into Shady Sands. Admitidly the Legion would like end up destroying itself but that's the only way I can see it doing real and threatening damage to the NCR.
quotetheraven90
First time out of the vault
Deep down in your heart, you know you're lying to yourself just now.
First of all I'll be honest, I have not read the entire thread, but this is because I still have not finished New Vegas.
You could say my thoughts on the Legion were formed in quite a "roleplaying style" (and I'm kinda happy about it), because I had not read much about them before playing New Vegas, so my opinion about them was formed through actually playing the game, instead of reading a Wiki article, which is always better. Of course I did know they were supposed to appear in Van Buren, etc, but didn't know much about what they were like as a faction.
After hearing some really ugly things about the Legion from local people, I considered the possibility of all that to just be some bullshit propaganda spread by the NCR. My first real contact with them was, quite obviously, the dialogue with Vulpes in Nipton, where he told me about that town being "a town of whores", opening their legs to anyone who would come with money, etc. And I have to admit it got my interest.
Later I was given the mark of Caesar and travelled to their Fort where I heard Caesar's discourse against corruption, individualism, etc. I especially liked what he said about Tandi being the best ruler of NCR because she was actually loved by the people, and the next presidents giving a shit about citizens and only making businesses with landowners, etc.
However, their negative side became too obvious to me: slavery, sexism, fanatic devotion to an authoritarian leader, brutal militarism, children being harshly trained to become bloodthirsty soldiers, and even their politics against the use of chemicals seemed too reactionary to me.
Some guy on this forum called Caesar a pseudo intellectual and I agree. The dude claims to have studied linguistics, and hearing him about the flaws of the NCR and their eventual failure reveals what is supposed to be a Hegelian base for his thoughts.
I study linguistics myself, and let me tell you that Caesar seems very far from it. A guy who has studied linguistics would never say something like "teaching people, who already have a civilized language, to speak some primitive language is a waste of time" as this is one of the first prejudices overthrown in Linguistics studies even by the structuralists. Also, if Caesar's hegelian philosophy is related to his knowledge of linguistics (which I can't be sure about because of the Fallout pre-War world was heavily influenced by the 50's, so structuralism could have continued being the dominant paradigm, as part of all that setting), his search to unite all tribes under one unique language is quite a contradiction (and anyway the history of the evolution of Latin into new languages in different territories of the Roman Empire proves it's impossible).
What's more, I find it weird that a person whose thoughts are supposed to be based on historicism, tries to emulate as faithfully as possible the ways of a society lost so many centuries ago. Heck, even making his men learn Latin just because their society is strongly based on the Roman Empire is very ridiculous...
Well to make it short, after talking to Vulpes in Nipton I thought I would agree with the Legion's model of society and political tendencies more than with that of the NCR and even thought about making sure they could win the war. Now I have decided not only to stop them but also to find a way to harm the Legion as much as I can.
You could say my thoughts on the Legion were formed in quite a "roleplaying style" (and I'm kinda happy about it), because I had not read much about them before playing New Vegas, so my opinion about them was formed through actually playing the game, instead of reading a Wiki article, which is always better. Of course I did know they were supposed to appear in Van Buren, etc, but didn't know much about what they were like as a faction.
After hearing some really ugly things about the Legion from local people, I considered the possibility of all that to just be some bullshit propaganda spread by the NCR. My first real contact with them was, quite obviously, the dialogue with Vulpes in Nipton, where he told me about that town being "a town of whores", opening their legs to anyone who would come with money, etc. And I have to admit it got my interest.
Later I was given the mark of Caesar and travelled to their Fort where I heard Caesar's discourse against corruption, individualism, etc. I especially liked what he said about Tandi being the best ruler of NCR because she was actually loved by the people, and the next presidents giving a shit about citizens and only making businesses with landowners, etc.
However, their negative side became too obvious to me: slavery, sexism, fanatic devotion to an authoritarian leader, brutal militarism, children being harshly trained to become bloodthirsty soldiers, and even their politics against the use of chemicals seemed too reactionary to me.
Some guy on this forum called Caesar a pseudo intellectual and I agree. The dude claims to have studied linguistics, and hearing him about the flaws of the NCR and their eventual failure reveals what is supposed to be a Hegelian base for his thoughts.
I study linguistics myself, and let me tell you that Caesar seems very far from it. A guy who has studied linguistics would never say something like "teaching people, who already have a civilized language, to speak some primitive language is a waste of time" as this is one of the first prejudices overthrown in Linguistics studies even by the structuralists. Also, if Caesar's hegelian philosophy is related to his knowledge of linguistics (which I can't be sure about because of the Fallout pre-War world was heavily influenced by the 50's, so structuralism could have continued being the dominant paradigm, as part of all that setting), his search to unite all tribes under one unique language is quite a contradiction (and anyway the history of the evolution of Latin into new languages in different territories of the Roman Empire proves it's impossible).
What's more, I find it weird that a person whose thoughts are supposed to be based on historicism, tries to emulate as faithfully as possible the ways of a society lost so many centuries ago. Heck, even making his men learn Latin just because their society is strongly based on the Roman Empire is very ridiculous...
Well to make it short, after talking to Vulpes in Nipton I thought I would agree with the Legion's model of society and political tendencies more than with that of the NCR and even thought about making sure they could win the war. Now I have decided not only to stop them but also to find a way to harm the Legion as much as I can.
Caesar isn't emulating Rome. He's styling his civilization after Rome, but he isn't faithfully recreating it. Big difference.
Courier said:
Just that when you think about it once "Benny" was out of the picture any logic obligations by the player would have been finished. Though since you still need something to get the player in to the game there has been the "platinum" chip needed which was also used in a very illogical way. I recommend reading BNs review about Vegas (which should be floating around somewhere ...) where he explains very nicely in detail why that part of Vegas is well ... not so well thought out. That is not so much a criticism but simply a statement. As said. No one will argue about it that Fallout 1 and 2 had "cheap" MAcGuffins. But as said. That was never really the point of the game (and it probably isn't neither the point of Vegas). But it does not mean that Vegas is doing a better job in keeping the player motivated. I think it is even doing a worse job. What saves the game is the excellent writing of many of the characters and actually both House and the NCR being well thought out factions not to mention many of the smaller one like the Kings.
Which means that the other nations like the Ancient Greece, Gauls and so on have been the greatest ones because most of the time the Romans raped their cultures and copied them. Compared to the Romans for example which had a very nice habit of treating their females like lower citizens the Gauls have been pretty "liberal".Sabirah said:
Much of what people learned about the Romans over the years ... came from the Romans. Things their historians wrote down. Only very few actually take their time to read what "other" nations had to say about them (for example the Persian empire) which shows them in some different light. For a very long time the Romans have been used as the only source regarding informations about the other cultures (like the Germanic tribes, the Gauls, Celts etc.) but historians slowly dig up more and more informations which seem to contradict what the Romans said. And the reason seems quite obvious. They had to find ways to justify their "wars" against those cultures. And it is much easier to do that when you paint them as uncivilized and barbaric nations only looking for war and looting. But it seems that long before the Romans even thought about this the Gauls had a connected infrastructure between their cities which have been many times independed with streets and some advanced economy. And if you look at Julius Caesar he was the person which attacked the Gauls for loot (to get prestige in combat to support his politics in rome AND getting rid of his debts that is of course very civilized letz ...). Lace it the Romans would not hesitate to kill millions of people like Caesar did or attack their neighbours when one of their emperors needed money for their crazy building project - see the Trajan's Dacian Wars.
I think one would have to be careful calling the Romans simply the "greatest" civilisation the west has ever seen when you consider how much they "stole" from other cultures. And how actually is Roman propaganda. They sure have not been more civilized compared to some other cultures just as like we in Europe are not more civilized to some South American tribe only because we have electricity.
Crni Vuk said:
Word. I completely agree with you.
Tagaziel said:
Hmm. Can't say I wanna argue with you, but why do you say he's only styling his society after the Latin one? As far as I have seen in-game, he want to copy their customs like the decimatio, and even repeat some of Julius's strategies, maybe most importantly, "look I'm crossing the Rubicon/Colorado with all my men after a great military campaign, and then get to Rome/Vegas, the city I want to rule but that right now is ruled by people who don't want me to cross".
Of course, copying an old society can't be done with complete success, and because of that he can just "style" his society after the Latins. However, as said, I'm actually just asking why you say it's not his intention to completely emulate them, I'm not entirely disagreeing.
Wintermind
Vault Senior Citizen
quotetheraven90 said:
No I'm not. John Doman is a skilled actor who played one of my all time favorite characters (Bill Rawls on The Wire), and Felicia Day is some pretty chick who did stuff on the internet? That nerds have a massive boner for? Massive, creepy boners like they do for Alison Brie and Summer Glau? Massive, creepy nerd boners that make said women less attractive?
I'm pretty sure most current western cultures can top the Romans by the way. We went to the fucking moon.
Black Feather
Mildly Dipped
Crni Vuk said:
Thanks for this. At least Arminius stopped them at the Rhine, or we may very well speak latin by now
well they still did enough damage. pretty much anywhere where the Romans put their stamp on almost everything was lost. We almost know nothing more about many of the different tribes then their neames which have been spread around the areas what we know today as France/Germany thx to the Romans and their "romanisation" (not that they have been worse then other empires, The greek did the same a few 100 years before the Romans when Alexander conquered the Persian Empire and the Spanish did the same with the Atzecs/Mayans and the British/French to India/Africa it is always the idea that "their" culture would be superior to the nations they conquered).
You know, after thinking about it a bit more I think the legion may actually be the best hope for the wasteland IF and only if;
1) Caesar survives
2) They take New Vegas with minimal loss of life
3) they don't immediately start chasing after the NCR
I see it like this. The Legion right now is just a big army right now right? Well if they took Vegas they would finally mellow out and stop being Luddites because, at the moment all we have seen of the legion is them in a state of war. If they took Vegas and then Caesar settled down (not permanently mind just for a while) they could usher in a Pax Romana that would go unabated for a while.
1) Caesar survives
2) They take New Vegas with minimal loss of life
3) they don't immediately start chasing after the NCR
I see it like this. The Legion right now is just a big army right now right? Well if they took Vegas they would finally mellow out and stop being Luddites because, at the moment all we have seen of the legion is them in a state of war. If they took Vegas and then Caesar settled down (not permanently mind just for a while) they could usher in a Pax Romana that would go unabated for a while.
Yeah, Alexander actually bolstered the influence of cultures from those people he had conquered. Not to mention that he took in many of the Persian traditions, ways of clothing and such for himself, in order to inspire his subordinates to do the same, going as far enough to marry majority of his soldiers to Persian women.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Europe as a whole, just take a look at Africa, all those countries speaking european languages are not the result fo pacifist campaings.