If Fallout 4 had actual proper alternate endings.

[Crni Vuk]

You can be born under the thief sign, level up thief related skills and join a guild of thieves or just be a general burglarer and break in and steal from people's houses.

You can also do the same for the couple of magic related birthsigns and then decide what disciplines of magic you want to train in and then join either the Mages Guild or House Telvanni

With the Warrior you have the related birthsign and skills and then theres the Fighter's Guild, The Imperial Legion or the other two great houses you can choose from to continue down the path of being a warrior whether its a member of a great house, a Fighter's Guild merc or an Imperial soldier.

Merchant-wise you have the speechcraft and mercantilism skills and a haggling system. You can buy and sell across the island of Vvardenfell for profit. Sure you can't open up a shop but you can be a traveling merchant if you want to.

As a priest you have either the Imperial Church you can join or you can join the Tribunal Temple. I've never done the Imperial Church but I know for a fact that becomming a member of the Temple of the Tribunal you go through a lot of very interesting lore and make pilgrimages to places like an actual member of the faith would.

Morrowind has loads of Roleplaying options available to you complete with diverse factions, quests, skills and relationships between those factions.

No, no, no, no, noo! No it doesn't. Sorry, but you're wrong. I don't mean this as offense. But if you REALLY believe that, then you have a wrong idea about the concept of >role playing< and just confuse it with >make believe<.

The difference between the situations you describe in Morrowind and actuall role playing goes much deeper than just, hey! I can level up my sneak skill and when I am crouching, I am thief!
It's the same like claiming that you're roleplaying an assasin in Skyrim, because you backstab all of your enemies. And a wizard is using his staff and mana to burn everyone to crisps. Sorry. No. No you're not an assasin, thief or what ever, just because you steel goblets and trinkets from random houses.
Playing a role, in the sense of "I am this character here", means that you get a chance to stay with the role. What makes Gerald of Rivia, the Witcher, actually Gerald from Rivia? Or Gandalf the Grey the powerfull Wizard from middle earth? Is it the fact that Gerald is slaying monsters? A lot of characters do that. But Gerald has a certain personality that goes with it. He would probably never simply slay some random farmers because it's fun. And he would probably not pass an oportunity to make a quick coin. And he would not offer his work for free, because that's out of his character. Gerald is a professional monster hunter, not a charity. And the game has to give you the oportunity to actually play as that. Otherwise you're just a random dude with a sword hacking his way trough the world.

Morrowind is creating an illusion in that respect. The same kind of illusion like Oblivion and Skyrim, trough the factions and level system. Granted. Morrowind is doing a better job then Oblivion/Skyrim. But at the end of the day, it's still just make believe, fancy larping. Nothing more. Morrowind has skill checks in the way that you HAVE to a master in the thief skills to become the head/leader of the thief guild. Yes. And I think that's actually a good thing. It gives the game some depth. But role playing comes trough the interaction with NPCs, decisions in quests, choices & consequences. It requires good writing and oportunities for the player to explore those in the narrative.

See Fallout 1 as example, Deus Ex 1, Arcanum, Planescape Torment, Vampire the Masquerade, even Baldurs Gate 1+2.

Roleplaying should be more than just leveling up skills and chosing a class.

Don't get me wrong! Morrowind is a great game. But it is still a mediocre RPG when it comes to actuall role playing.

 

[Ragemage]

snip snip snip

I have to respectfully disagree with you. Morrowind does have lots of roleplaying opportunities just in the amount of factions you can join, and how those factions pertain to YOUR playstyle. There's a faction for almost any kind of character. Are you a magic user but can't condone slavery? Mage's Guild. Are you a magic user that believes this power makes you superior over everyone else and that it's okay to enslave nonmagic users because of this? House Telvanni. Do you like politics and getting involved in political problems, blackmailing other societies instead of getting your hands dirty, etc? House Hlaalu. Are you a warrior that likes to beat shit up with a sword in order to protect people? Fighter's Guild and House Redoran to an extent. And so forth and so on.

The fact also that you can kill everyone in the game leads to even more playstyle opportunities. For example, when I played Morrowind my character was a Daedra worshipping wood elf assassin. He worshipped the pantheon of Daedric Princes in the Daedric Ruins scattered throughout Vvardenfell, he plunged his knife into people's backs in the name of Mephala, and he hated the Tribunal. The moment he was granted entry into Vivec's palace, he killed him and forged his own path to Dagoth Ur rather than accepting the help from some so-called "god".

And also because there's no such thing as "owned" property in Morrowind, if you kill some poor farmer out in his fields, you can use his farmhouse as your house, there's nothing to stop you from doing it. No restrictions saying "You can't sleep in an owned bed!" or "You can't store your things in someone else's container!" It makes playing as a vampire so much less tedious, let me tell you.

Plus, you know, what you do in the game actually matters. Since the game keeps track of pretty much every single dialogue option you have and you're able to type in specific things if there's no button for it on the side, lots of NPCs will comment on your actions. Did you kill a bunch of the Camonna Tong in that first town? Did you solve the mystery of the dead tax collector? People will take note of it, and doing things like this will raise your reputation with a lot of people. That's another aspect I liked about Morrowind, the reputation system. Depending on your actions with certain factions, other factions would hate you and maybe even attack on sight. For instance, when I got buddy buddy with House Hlaalu, House Redoran and House Telvanni members wanted nothing to do with me, and if I talked to them more than 3 times they would attack me. It led to a lot more interesting roleplay rather than just becoming the leader of everything and making everyone like you like in Skyrim. In Skyrim every single faction is open to you from the start. In Morrowind, if you join a certain faction, other factions can get locked off to you, like joining the Fighter's Guild instead of the Thieve's Guild. It made you actually have to think about who you were going to join and what kind of character you were trying to make.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

\
Playing a role, in the sense of "I am this character here", means that you get a chance to stay with the role. What makes Gerald of Rivia, the Witcher, actually Gerald from Rivia? Or Gandalf the Grey the powerfull Wizard from middle earth? Is it the fact that Gerald is slaying monsters? A lot of characters do that. But Gerald has a certain personality that goes with it. He would probably never simply slay some random farmers because it's fun. And he would probably not pass an oportunity to make a quick coin. And he would not offer his work for free, because that's out of his character. Gerald is a professional monster hunter, not a charity. And the game has to give you the oportunity to actually play as that. Otherwise you're just a random dude with a sword hacking his way trough the world.

In my opinion, games like Alpha Protocol, The Witcher, and Mass Effect are a lot like traditional RPGs, except someone has already created your character for you.

Which makes a whole lot of difference. In one way, that's a good thing - Mass Effect in exception because thanks to EA it went off-track - it allows for more depth within a single role. On the other hand, there's not much variations in what you can become.

But role playing comes trough the interaction with NPCs, decisions in quests, choices & consequences. It requires good writing and oportunities for the player to explore those in the narrative.

Aw, but reading is boring, you absolute nerd. Go read a book if you want narrative, I want to actually be a thief.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well, no one said you can't have both! I would say New Vegas did a pretty decent job with that.

I have to respectfully disagree with you. Morrowind does have lots of roleplaying opportunities just in the amount of factions you can join, and how those factions pertain to YOUR playstyle. There's a faction for almost any kind of character. Are you a magic user but can't condone slavery? Mage's Guild. Are you a magic user that believes this power makes you superior over everyone else and that it's okay to enslave nonmagic users because of this? House Telvanni. Do you like politics and getting involved in political problems, blackmailing other societies instead of getting your hands dirty, etc? House Hlaalu. Are you a warrior that likes to beat shit up with a sword in order to protect people? Fighter's Guild and House Redoran to an extent. And so forth and so on.

And how many times does the game actually give you a real oportunity to express this "role playing" that we are talking about?
It is one thing if you decide to join Metzgers slaver guild, or if you actually get to live with 1. the consequences of it, and 2. to actually get a chance to do a "slavers" work. If you get what I am talking about.
Just joining a faction and performing some mundane tasks, doesn't mean you're actually role playing.

Like I said. It is a fancy way of larping your way trough the game where you "believe" that everyone treats you like that slave loving wizard or this great master mind who can manipulate others in doing his work. Morrowind is not different to both Oblivion and Skyrim in that respect. But I am not so much complaining about this, just trying to say, that well, that's how the game simply works. And there is no reason to pretend that it is doing something, which it simply isn't.

That's the point I am trying to make here. You can join all those precious factions. But you're still railroaded in every quest and every path that is infront of you. And the world actually reacts very little to the things you do. You can even kill Vivec, and it matters very little to the world. The narrative of the game and the quests never ever allows you actually make a choice that matters.

I am not saying Morrowind is a bad game. But we simply have to accept the fact that a lot of games, do a MUCH better job when it comes to actuall role playing compared to Morrowind. Like, New Vegas. Compare the oportunities of exploring the narrative you have in NV to Morrowind, and tell me MW is a great RPG in that respect. You can't. Because MW simply never gives you really a chance to do that. It's either "do the mission now" or "do it later". That's it.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

By this definition, having wizard robes and putting points into wizard skills doesn't mean you are roleplaying a wise old wizard. You would need to have the opportunity to say what a wise old wizard would say, make the decisions a wise old wizard would make, and the world would react to those two things accordingly. Looking like wise old wizard is optional.

Otherwise? The Sims would count as a roleplaying game. Which it isn't, for exactly that reason.

 

[Ragemage]

snip

Once again, I have to disagree. People do react to your decisions. If you join House Telvanni for example, any person that's associated with House Hlaalu, House Redoran, or their friends (Such as the Tribunal and the Imperial Cult) will hate you with no way to really reconcile them outside of bribes or a very high speech. It's not so much about playing make believe, people in Morrowind really do react to what sort of factions you pick and the choices you make.

Let me list another example, a side quest: In this cave near a small town, I found a silver bowl with a name engraved on it. When I went in town I asked someone about it, and they said it belonged to a woman who used to live there. So I asked more around town and eventually got pointed to a friend of her's a healer in the nearby Imperial fort. I talk to this healer and she gives me directions to the owner of the bowl. I take this bowl to its owner, she thanks me for my help, and when I get back to this town and ask anyone about the bowl, they thank me for returning it and I get a plus 20 reputation with everyone in town. And that's just a small side quest, there's plenty of examples where what you do drastically affects reputation with NPCs.

And the only reason people don't really react strongly to you killing Vivec is that, basically, you're the only one to have seen him in person for hundreds of years if not more. He's been locked away in his temple ever since Dagoth Ur stole the Heart of Lorkhan. Why would people believe you, some outsider who claims to be the Nerevarine, to have killed whom they believe to be God Himself? If someone came up to me and said they killed God, I certainly wouldn't believe them at all. In fact, when you tell people you killed Vivec they call you a heretic and a liar and you lose 20-30 reputation points with them for even saying such a blasphemous thing.

You also can't join all the factions, that's the thing. Joining one faction will effectively lock you out of another. If I become rank 3 in the Thieves Guild then I can no longer join the Figher's Guild. If The second I join one of the Great Houses the other 2 become locked off to me permanently. So no, joining all the factions isn't something you can do. Are there some loopholes to it? Sure there are, but for the most part joining one specific faction will usually make the people from the other faction hate you so much that you can't join.

As another example, I had a mage character that I wanted to join both the Mage's Guild and House Telvanni. What I didn't know is that the Mage's Guild and House Telvanni actually hate each other's guts. So now that I've joined the Mage's Guild everyone in House Telvanni has pretty much a 0 in reputation with me, making it next to impossible to join unless I level up nothing but speechcraft. That's roleplaying, and not in a make-believe way. I made a bad choice and now I have to live with the consequences. It isn't like in Skyrim where, even though the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves' Guild hate each other, you can still join both with literally no consequences whatsoever. No one even brings up the fact that you're allied with both of them.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Like I said, Morrowind is doing a better job at convincing you from this illusion of role playing compared to Skyrim and Oblivion. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you're a thief, wizard or fighter. The game doesn't give you a chance to actually role play a personality.
Joining the Wizard guild doesn't make you a Wizard. I mean, if you don't join them, does it mean you're not a wizard?
Has Gandalf to be a member of some guild to be a powerfull wizard? Have you to be a member of some Orc faction to be one? What makes Aragorn a ranger? And suddenly a high king by the end of the book?

And Vivec was just some example. I could have used other characters. I killed plenty of them in Morrowind. Sometimes you lose reputation with some factions, or they might outright attack you, if they saw you doing it. But that's pretty much it. No matter how important the character was. The World doesn't really notice it.

The non existing dialog system of Morrowind simply doesn't give you enough chances to actually role play and interact with the NPCs. The writing in general is decent. But at the end of the day, it's 99% asking questions and directions. I have yet to read one example where you're REALLY role playing and displaying choices trough the dialog.

What I mean are examples like situations in New Vegas and how your character can deal with the Fiends and other various factions.

I am NOT saying that every RPG has to be as text/dialog heavy like Planescape or deep like NV. But, it is a very good example of interactions and roleplaying that actually matter in within the narrative of the game. And where some of your decisions actually really make a change in the world around you.

And Morrowind sadly, offers you none of that. It's just stats and railroaded quests.

By this definition, having wizard robes and putting points into wizard skills doesn't mean you are roleplaying a wise old wizard. You would need to have the opportunity to say what a wise old wizard would say, make the decisions a wise old wizard would make, and the world would react to those two things accordingly. Looking like wise old wizard is optional.

Otherwise? The Sims would count as a roleplaying game. Which it isn't, for exactly that reason.

Pretty much yeah! The game has to give you oportunites trough the narrative and dialog to actually act like the role you chose. Or you're just a random dude in a robe and a staff killing stuff.

 

[Vergil]

And how many times does the game actually give you a real oportunity to express this "role playing" that we are talking about?

A lot actually. If you join the Fighter's Guild you do mercenary work just like they do and you rise up in the ranks do to your work there and depending on who you're talking to some will love you for it and some factions will hate you for it. If you join the Temple you go on pilgrimages and make offerings to your gods. A lot of natives will likes you for this but the Imperial Cult who don't share your religious beliefs will dislike you quite a bit as you rise up in rank with the Temple. Same for the Mages Guild Vs. House Telvanni etc.

 

[Crni Vuk]

And here we are again ... you are a fighter because you join the fighter guild, you are a wizard because you join the wizard guild and so on ...
Still none of you could actually show some dialog with actuall roleplaying. And that's because there is none in Morrowind. Just face it. You just join factions, and do railroaded quests.

Where is the actuall "role playing" we are talking about?

 

[Ragemage]

snip

Alright, I understand more of where you're coming from now. I misinterpreted what you said before, apologies on that, I didn't think you meant the character we play as's dialogue.

Though what I don't understand is why you keep calling the quests in Morrowind "railroaded"? Railroaded would imply there's only one outcome to any of the quests, but Morrowind's quests do have diversity in how you complete them. The only guild I can think of where's there's literally only a single outcome in all the quests is the Morag Tong, and that's because they're simply an assassin's guild. You can kill your target in different ways but at the end of the day you're simply killing a target. The other factions have multitudes of ways to complete their quests, the Thieve's Guild probably being the best example. There's a lot of different ways to get info on an artifact you need to find, how to acquire that artifact, and so forth. For instance, one of the Thieve's Guild quests is to find this mystical artifact called The Bitter Cup in order to help the Thieve's Guild gain a reputation. You have at least 4 options on what to do with the cup. You can either retrieve the artifact like you were told, you can drink from the cup yourself and gain its magical properties (I believe it was a permanent stat booster), you can destroy the cup so that no one can use its vile magic, or, if you have the official expansions, you can sell it to this Museum in Mournhold for a very high price where it's put on display for all to see. So there's definitely roleplaying there when it comes to quest choice.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Alright, I understand more of where you're coming from now. I misinterpreted what you said before, apologies on that, I didn't think you meant the character we play as's dialogue.

No worries, half of the time even I don't understand where I am coming from.

Though what I don't understand is why you keep calling the quests in Morrowind "railroaded"? Railroaded would imply there's only one outcome to any of the quests, but Morrowind's quests do have diversity in how you complete them.

In which way? Because you have the choice to use a dagger instead of a fireball to kill the target? That's not really different to the choice you have in CoD by chosing a sniper over the assault rifle to kill your enemies. That's not what I am talking about.
I am talking about different outcomes for quests. Like again, new Vegas.

For example. Your interaction with Robert House in New Vegas and the many options you have, which also change the outcome of many quests. You have the choice to either work with him, against him, killing him, or to ignore him. Depending on your relation with other factions.
And this kind of situation is not exceptional for Vegas. Almost all important NPCs and factions allow you different outcomes. With the families on the strip, the NCR, the Khans, Boomers and so on.
The Boomers alone have 9 different endings depending on how you interact with them!

Morrowind has a hell lot of factions and NPCs you can interact with. But the outcome of your interactions, is almost always the same. And I know it, I played the game over and over again. Something that is the rule in New Vegas - different outcomes with the same quests, is rather the exception in Morrowind.
Let us say in Morrowind someone is asking you to make a love potion, the game gives you maybe the choice to either buy the ingredients or to search for them. But the game never gives you the option to either talk the quest giver out of his idea, or to convince the love interest to fall in love with him/her, or to convince your quest giver to do it the natural way and so on. The outcome is always the same. You give the potion. And get your reward.

And you have no other choice but to kill Dagoth Ur, you have no other choice but to become the Nerevarine. And if a quest tells you to kill some NPC, then you have to kill this NPC. You can not talk your way out of it or offer alternative solutions and if you kill the quest giver most of the time you can not even finish the quest line. Leave alone become the leader of the guild.

 

[Ragemage]

snip

I gave you an example of a quest with diversity though, the Bitter Cup. And that whole Love Potion quest you referenced isn't really a good example because that one also has different endings to it. You can get him to romance the woman of his dreams, in which he ends up heartbroken, you can convince him to marry her cousin, in which case he'll be happy and give you a good reward. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:For_the_Love_of_a_Bosmer

and there's plenty more quests like that, with at least 2 or 3 choices. Is it as diverse as New Vegas? No, but I wouldn't expect it to be.

Also the whole thing about Dagoth Ur. I could say the same thing about New Vegas. At the end of the day, no matter who you sided with, it all comes down to the Dam. No matter who you befriended, killed, or joined, you will always end up fighting on that dam, either from the East side or the West side. With Dagoth Ur it's the same way.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Actually, I agree with Crni. While Morrowind has a great world, full of lore and great writing it cannot be compared to New Vegas or Fallout 1/2. It pains me but even Fallout 3 has more options when it comes to quests.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I gave you an example of a quest with diversity though, the Bitter Cup. And that whole Love Potion quest you referenced isn't really a good example because that one also has different endings to it. You can get him to romance the woman of his dreams, in which he ends up heartbroken, you can convince him to marry her cousin, in which case he'll be happy and give you a good reward. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:For_the_Love_of_a_Bosmer

and there's plenty more quests like that, with at least 2 or 3 choices. Is it as diverse as New Vegas? No, but I wouldn't expect it to be.

Also the whole thing about Dagoth Ur. I could say the same thing about New Vegas. At the end of the day, no matter who you sided with, it all comes down to the Dam. No matter who you befriended, killed, or joined, you will always end up fighting on that dam, either from the East side or the West side. With Dagoth Ur it's the same way.

Dude. I played Morrowind. For a very long time. 90% of the quests in that game have one outcome, and one way (mostly) to finish them - unless you count something like using either a sword or bow to kill a target as "choice". I already told you, what is the rule in Vegas, is the exception in Morrowind. A handfull of quests that give you some options. Yaaay! I guess? I understand that you can not make EVERY(!) quest like that. Not all quests in NV are that deep either. But most of them are.

And the dam? Are you crazy? Comparing this with Dagoth Ur, a situation that is as linear as fuck? Do you even know in how many ways you can actually influence and change the battle on the dam? Yes! You always end up ON the dam, and it's always a battle between the NCR and the Legion. But what you do before you end up there, can change the whole narrative of the game. Siding with the Legion, the NCR, taking either the boomers or the Enclave with you in the fight and many more smaller and bigger changes.
I mean ... com on, just swallow your pride finally! And simply agree that Morrowind is an mediocre RPG. That doesn't mean you have to enjoy the game less. I just means to be honest about the game! What it does well, and what it doesn't do well. New Vegas isn't a perfect game either.

And I am just talking for my self, but yes, I actually DO expect from a role playing game to be as deep like New Vegas. Look at what Obsidian did in 18-20 months. AND they had enough time to plan for some DLCs. Why again can't other companies, like Bethesda, offer something that is equal in depth?

 

[Ragemage]

snip

Maybe it's my rose colored glasses talking but I specifically remember there being a lot of different ways to complete guild quests, and I've done them all, along with every Great House. I still don't consider it a mediocre RPG but to each his own. At the very least, even if it is mostly "playing pretend" over actual RPG, they gave us all the tools we needed to make our "make believe" make sense and actually have a place in the canon world instead of having to just make up everything ourselves like with FO4.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Well, mediocre RPG compared to New Vegas.
If you compare Morrowind to let us say Fallout 4 it is a much better RPG, no doubts about that. But What kind of standard is Fallout 4? CoD and Doom 1 might allow you more role playing these days for all I know ...

 

[Dr Fallout]

While I agree that Morrowind has no real choice in it's quests, I could actually say that the writing is sometimes better then Fallout New Vegas. Best examples is the main story, the lore and the world of Morrowind. While the singular quests don't always get great writing the overall world does.

 

[ZigzagPX4]

Actually, I agree with Crni. While Morrowind has a great world, full of lore and great writing it cannot be compared to New Vegas or Fallout 1/2. It pains me but even Fallout 3 has more options when it comes to quests.

I actually imagine Bethesda writers being outright annoyed at having to work with the prospect of reactive characters and meaningful dialogue. With no offense meant, Bethesda's thing has always been to write dialogue to complement an extravagant plot, like decorations for the main writing, not as an actual part of the game.

This works, yes - in stealth games, like Thief or Splinter Cell, or in first-person shooters, like Battlefield, or in several other subgenres of action games, but not in Fallout, which is unique in its ability to make choices and words matter. Bethesda should've been the last choice in the entire industry for a series like Fallout.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I actually imagine Bethesda writers being outright annoyed at having to work with the prospect of reactive characters and meaningful dialogue. With no offense meant, Bethesda's thing has always been to write dialogue to complement an extravagant plot, like decorations for the main writing, not as an actual part of the game.

This works, yes - in stealth games, like Thief or Splinter Cell, or in first-person shooters, like Battlefield, or in several other subgenres of action games, but not in Fallout, which is unique in its ability to make choices and words matter. Bethesda should've been the last choice in the entire industry for a series like Fallout.

Agreed, though the main plot of Morrowind is a great piece of work in my opinion. Come on, does anyone find the fact that being the chosen one only happens if you succeed? And the whole religious conflict?

 

[ZigzagPX4]

Agreed, though the main plot of Morrowind is a great piece of work in my opinion. Come on, does anyone find the fact that being the chosen one only happens if you succeed? And the whole religious conflict?

It's not really the story itself, but your ability to affect it and be affected by it that @Crni Vuk was referring to.

Morrowind's dialogue was more of a tool for initiating trade, continuing the plot, or getting new information. It still didn't provide much in the way of C&C and the ability to persuade other characters.

In the end, you can have the greatest fantasy plot in the world, inside a game with very enjoyable gameplay, yet the game itself can still be a crappy RPG.