GatheringCircle
First time out of the vault
I always thought the endings where there to explain what happens after the game and beyond not just short term, but if you insist I really don't now.
Is NV too much NCR-Sided?
- Thread starter gongos
- Start date
First time out of the vault
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
GatheringCircle said:
It specifically says Lanius is crowned the new Caesar in that particular ending. Lanius becomes Caesar, therefore the Legion doesn't die off, because Caesar lives on, even if it's not Edward Sallow.
What comes into question is whether there's an actual line of succession involved in becoming Caesar, or if Lanius' crown is entirely dependent on victory.
In ancient history, the title of Caesar was mostly hereditary, and only if the successor was acceptable to the army and the bureaucracy. A major victory (such as a win at Hoover Dam) would throw support behind Lanius that he can claim providence through Mars and claim the title of Caesar.
Of course, should Lanius lose, he might lose popular support of the Legion, seeing as such a general cannot lose and remain at the head of such a divinely inspired army (see what happened to Joshua Graham), so others within the ranks might step up to try and claim that they are better and could win.
Even Lanius doesn't believe the Legion can expand much further without losing its own integrity. I mean Frith on a stick, that makes it hard to believe that ending very far.
Lanius is a legend almost on par with Caesar though, but not a very good leader except for an army. He might keep it together as long as they expand, but even then, why would anyone think this cult-of-personality-based structure would have any future?
Lanius is a legend almost on par with Caesar though, but not a very good leader except for an army. He might keep it together as long as they expand, but even then, why would anyone think this cult-of-personality-based structure would have any future?
Quagmire69
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Humanity's position is better ill give yout that but far from invulnerable for two reasons.
1. Supermutants are still a force in the East and various mutations and abominations still room free, Ullysses even points out how its only a matter of time till the Mojave is overrun by the creatures of the Divide.
2. The NCR will nto be able to support a growing humanity. The NCRs head scientest even pointed out that the NCR is facing famine in ten years. A famine would remove the edge humanity has gained on mutated life since fallout 1 and humans could very well be reduced to prey status.
The Legion would be the perfect society for dealing with these two problems. The Legion would orginise humanity in a militarised society that not only would be capable of defending the human species but also capable of hunting down and killing all threats to its survival. The second problem would be just as easily takin care of by the Legion. I can't think of a society better made to manage both the production of resources thier rationing. No more all exspense vacations for brahmin barons, no more friviality, no waste, to each according to his usefullness to humanity. Why do you think they kill the old and inferm? Its not because its fun its because their mouths to feed. The Legion may not be nice, but are the best shot for the long term survival of humanity.
killerfurball
First time out of the vault
I have read all the pages so far and there is one thing I do think that needs to be done in some of this debate. This is a game. The world in the game is radically different then the world we live in. Using examples of contemporary society (US in it's present form irl) are bad arguments to make for a game world where the US is a different monster then our own.
There are also parallels to be drawn here. The NCR in the incarnation seen in NV seems to be beginning to mirror the pre-war US system. Replace the Communist Chinese with the Legion. Add in shortages of power (the takeover of Helios One) and firm grip over Hoover Dam (Similar to the Anchorage Front), growing discontent between the rich and the poor (the continual favoring of the brahman barons). As it was pointed out the NCR is being overstretched, it's resources are starting to dwindle, and it's becoming just as adamant over defending and expanding as the pre-war US was, all things that eventually lead to the destruction of the US.
If there is one thing you have to give to Caesar and The Legion it is that he (and I might be giving him too much credit) realized this. Anti-technology stances have a positive effect considering the extent to which the NCR is expanding and overstretching itself (near collapse it would seem) to gather the resources necessary to continue their consumption. I would not take for granted the stability of the NCR's system considering the in game historical parallels they are starting to show. If the NCR continues down this path, with no change, they will collapse. They quite simply can not sustain an empire this large.
The Legion on the other hand has it's advantages for large scale empire building but will also face the same struggles as the NCR is only delayed due to their brutal practices. Economically with territory near as strong the Legion is stronger. They are more centrally united. They don't have as large a reliance on technological recoveries as the NCR (which makes the NCR's moves more predictable). Caesar is the charismatic leader that united the tribes, but the Roman empire did not fall with the death of Caesar or Augustus. There is no real grantee that the empire will decay if Caesar dies. Current patterns do suggest they can maintain power for some lines of succession but they are an expansionist power with heavy military influences. They too can and will overstretch themselves if they continue down their path.
There are reasons I don't like House but this is more Legion vs NCR. Generally I tend to follow more toward the NCR due to sentimental reasons. But I will do a Legion play through at some point.
There are also parallels to be drawn here. The NCR in the incarnation seen in NV seems to be beginning to mirror the pre-war US system. Replace the Communist Chinese with the Legion. Add in shortages of power (the takeover of Helios One) and firm grip over Hoover Dam (Similar to the Anchorage Front), growing discontent between the rich and the poor (the continual favoring of the brahman barons). As it was pointed out the NCR is being overstretched, it's resources are starting to dwindle, and it's becoming just as adamant over defending and expanding as the pre-war US was, all things that eventually lead to the destruction of the US.
If there is one thing you have to give to Caesar and The Legion it is that he (and I might be giving him too much credit) realized this. Anti-technology stances have a positive effect considering the extent to which the NCR is expanding and overstretching itself (near collapse it would seem) to gather the resources necessary to continue their consumption. I would not take for granted the stability of the NCR's system considering the in game historical parallels they are starting to show. If the NCR continues down this path, with no change, they will collapse. They quite simply can not sustain an empire this large.
The Legion on the other hand has it's advantages for large scale empire building but will also face the same struggles as the NCR is only delayed due to their brutal practices. Economically with territory near as strong the Legion is stronger. They are more centrally united. They don't have as large a reliance on technological recoveries as the NCR (which makes the NCR's moves more predictable). Caesar is the charismatic leader that united the tribes, but the Roman empire did not fall with the death of Caesar or Augustus. There is no real grantee that the empire will decay if Caesar dies. Current patterns do suggest they can maintain power for some lines of succession but they are an expansionist power with heavy military influences. They too can and will overstretch themselves if they continue down their path.
There are reasons I don't like House but this is more Legion vs NCR. Generally I tend to follow more toward the NCR due to sentimental reasons. But I will do a Legion play through at some point.
GatheringCircle
First time out of the vault
If I remember correctly I believe it is said in game that most people do not get to see or hear from Caesar personally. In game he is in a tent the entire time and he doesn't give speeches to his troops like Kimball does, so is it really a cult-of-personality if only the Praetorian Guards , the Legate and the head of the Frumenatarii get to see him? Compare him to Hitler and Stalin who are constantly posing for pictures and giving speeches and you see a marked difference. Even if Caesar dies, to the regulars, it wouldn't make a difference. They still wouldn't see their leader at all.
Quagmire69
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
I don't think the Legion ressebles communism, communism involves the abolition of private property and religion. The Legion appears to have far more respect for personal ownership than the NCR who just steal from people. Though the Legionaries arent exactly accepting Jesus as thier personal savior many such as Lianus devoutly follow a Neo-Pagan-Neo-Roman faith.
The NCR though not Communist in the Lenistic since still reak of socialism. The main trait of socialism is not hatred of property or capitalist but the idea that human confort is the highest ideal, faith, sacrifice, and honour are to be illiminated becaues they distract from human comfort and wellfare.
The NCR though not Communist in the Lenistic since still reak of socialism. The main trait of socialism is not hatred of property or capitalist but the idea that human confort is the highest ideal, faith, sacrifice, and honour are to be illiminated becaues they distract from human comfort and wellfare.
:::SILUS:::
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Quagmire69 said:
Yeah, it's quite clear it's far right fascist.
A luddite army of genocidal sadist brainwashed fascists who spend their lives enslaving and massacring while having the said lives wholy subjected to the state and have practically no individual identity has more respect for the personal ownership then a democratic republic?
I'm sorry but you should really read a book instead of just deciding to talk out of your arse, even though this is internet and all. Sentences like the one above are really doing you no favor.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Well SILUS thats Quagmire for you, talking out of his ass and contradicting himself is his game.
Also the problem with the Legon is not the slavery, pillaging, forced indoctrination facism and sexims, no, the problem is that they don't acept Geezus as their lord and savior.....
Also the problem with the Legon is not the slavery, pillaging, forced indoctrination facism and sexims, no, the problem is that they don't acept Geezus as their lord and savior.....
Gethsemani
First time out of the vault
Quagmire69 said:
So for 1 you are taking the words of a deranged and broken person as gospel? A person who uses so much conjecture and veils himself in symbols and vague metaphors and aphorisms. Ulysses is a supremly unreliable narrator and just because he thinks something will happen, that doesn't give it any credence.
As for 2, you are seriously suggesting that a heavily militarized society where farmers exist only to grow food for the army, and does this using (literarly) ancient farming techniques, would somehow be better equipped to supply food for all its' citizens than the nation that is trying its' best to improve its' agriculture? Sure the NCR has problems with corruptions and an over prolifiration of cattle ranches in the west, but it is still far more capable of sustaining large populations than the Legion is, simply because the legion doesn't care for anyone not of their warrior caste.
I mean, I'm going to be honest here. I'm a woman and for me there's nothing redeeming about the Legion. It is a society that oppresses half its' population because of its' gender and then goes on to oppress many more for being of the wrong "caste". Your idea about the Legion as humanity's best hope is woefully misguided and to me reeks of facism glorification.
The clues are all there in New Vegas, that the Legion is only a stable realm because it is woefully oppressive and because it relies on a cult of personality and the visions of Caesar himself. Once Caesar is gone, he'll be replaced by someone with his ambition but not his knowledge and cunning. His "Pax Romana"-ideal won't come to pass if Caesar dies simply because Lanius does not understand, or care, for that dream. For Lanius, the Legion is defined by conquest and subjugation of the vanquished, not its' ideals about a strong humanity purged by adversity.
Quagmire69
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
My opinion is the Legion will change after it conqueres the NCR.
How about you introduce a single original thought instead of just coppying others.
I'm an athiest so no i don't care about jesus I was just pointing out that they have filled the tradition role that Christianity has filled in western civilization with the God of Mars.
but he's right your knowledge regarding communism and/or socialism leaves much to be desired.
GatheringCircle
First time out of the vault
Where did you find this information. I'm not saying you are wrong I just do not remember it.
The warrior caste is every male in the legion, then you have slaves and priestesses. The slaves are people who would be to stubborn to change their culture and the priestesses (you can't exactly be oppressed if you are teaching who is to be oppressed in the first place) are all the women not made into slaves. If I had to pick one caste to be the most grateful for, it would be the warriors who are dying en mass to further the Legion's goals. The Priestesses are also important, but they do not die by the hundred and aren't in any danger whatsoever.
Again there are only three we know of, and I do not believe it is oppressive to be an educator. You seem to be under the idea that all women are slaves in the Legion when this is not true.
I brought this up in a recent post. It is a great honour to see Caesar, and most of the Legion never even hears his voice. I wouldn't call it a cult-of-personality if the soldiers have nevr met the personality.
I will quote the Legate ending exactly "Under the Legion's banner, civilization - savage as it was - finally came to the Mojave Wasteland. " Also everyone in the Legion knows that conquest and subjugation are what the Legion is about. Caesar believes that you cannot have civilization without getting rid of all opposition. Lanius is not outside of Caesar's beliefs.
What are you trying to do? Ruin the Legion for me? That sounds so boring.
you're not serious about that aren't you ? Just because females do some "teaching" or have a "priestly caste" does not mean they can not (or would not) be oppressed. See the Roman empire. Or certain religious groups (like some fanatic islam and christian groups). Many girls there get taught by females. And they teach them to obey. That is a form of oppression not directly but it leads to the fact that females accept their place among males and not as people on their eye height. And they pass this "concept" onto their children and those on theirs etc. I hope you see where this leads to. So the opression here does not only come from males alone which is a very common falacy. Females can be blamed for this almost as much like males (at least most of the time).GatheringCircle said:
I am not sure if that is your opinion. But there can be really no doubts about the legions stance regarding "females" and frankly it makes not much sense in the setting of the wasteland that they do feel that way regarding females. Also not to mention that a militaristic society with a high focus on a "warrior" caste comes with tons of problems in it self. Already people like Plato and Aristotle have spend some thoughts about it. And those societies have been relatively rare in the human history. Simply because a society with high focus on military works only as long there is a territory to conquer and some enemy to battle. Well trained soldiers which have nothing to do posses a high danger in it self which was not the first time why some important person (leader) lost its head simply because the troops have been not satisfied with the situation. Not to mention that in such a society science would take a backseat because if there is any research done it happens for the military (not to mention that the Legion is not all to open regarding science in the fist place). So it is if you ask me far more likely that the Legion would start at some point to starve then the NCR simply because the Legion in it self as empire/society might be to stiff and uneducated to adapt on such situations.
Romans used greek slaves to teach their children fine arts, mathematic, philosophy etc. Does not mean they have been less of a slave. Maybe a slave with more value but still a slave.GatheringCircle said:
Opression like with females does not always come with violance or pushing your boot in their neck or just demanding your "will" because your a slave. That is pretty "black and white" thinking. It most of the time works far more subtle. Same with slavery.
GatheringCircle
First time out of the vault
Yah, I wanted someone else to weigh in which is why I said I believe that educators cannot be oppressed later in the post. It sort of does make sense why they do not like females though. J.E. Sawyer explained already, and I'm sure you read it already. Also the Legion is not going to run out of enemies for a looong time in the wastes.
Could you also explain how oppression works when you aren't using force on them?
Could you also explain how oppression works when you aren't using force on them?
well describe "force" ?
How is the Islam (not just they but lets use it as example ) doing its education ? Children get taught first by their parents. And here the mother takes a very important role while in a modern society where the male and female share equal roles/rights the raising of children is seen as important task by both parents. This is not only true for some parts of the Islam of course. It was not uncommon in medieval times to leave this part entirely to the female just as how it is for many christian groups today. Now I don't know everything in detail. But when you get taught to "obey man (males)" because "god said so" then you will do that if you want to be a good female. - of course it is a bit more complex then just that but lets keep it simple to not explode the topic - So now if they believe this is required to be a good female they will not accept anything that speaks against it like opinions which say that females share the same place like males this goes even as far back to the situation of Lilith which was "thrown" out of the paradise because she demanded knowledge (reading the Torah/religious text) and felt equal to Adam (as both have been made the same way) EVA in the old tradition was not the first wife. She was "made" after Lilith to be below Adam the Genesis is teaching a different story.
The oppression starts when females actually do not want to fit the role which society gives them. When they start to learn or get education which is only allowed to males. There are exception. But in those societies where it was seen as normal that a female had not the same rights like males you would have laws which deal with females that do not obey. If a female has to camouflage herself as male to enter some academy then I think that can be seen as a form of oppression. As said. There are many forms of "force" not just brute violence. And sometimes it is very subtle.
- Regarding the Legion if the only rank females can reach is those of a priestess then this IS definitely a form of opression. The difference is if both share equal rights inside a caste. But that is definitely not true for the Legion.
And as said. When it comes to the Legion in Fallouts setting it does not make that much sense that they have such a harsh opinion regarding females. But that is what I think.
How is the Islam (not just they but lets use it as example ) doing its education ? Children get taught first by their parents. And here the mother takes a very important role while in a modern society where the male and female share equal roles/rights the raising of children is seen as important task by both parents. This is not only true for some parts of the Islam of course. It was not uncommon in medieval times to leave this part entirely to the female just as how it is for many christian groups today. Now I don't know everything in detail. But when you get taught to "obey man (males)" because "god said so" then you will do that if you want to be a good female. - of course it is a bit more complex then just that but lets keep it simple to not explode the topic - So now if they believe this is required to be a good female they will not accept anything that speaks against it like opinions which say that females share the same place like males this goes even as far back to the situation of Lilith which was "thrown" out of the paradise because she demanded knowledge (reading the Torah/religious text) and felt equal to Adam (as both have been made the same way) EVA in the old tradition was not the first wife. She was "made" after Lilith to be below Adam the Genesis is teaching a different story.
The oppression starts when females actually do not want to fit the role which society gives them. When they start to learn or get education which is only allowed to males. There are exception. But in those societies where it was seen as normal that a female had not the same rights like males you would have laws which deal with females that do not obey. If a female has to camouflage herself as male to enter some academy then I think that can be seen as a form of oppression. As said. There are many forms of "force" not just brute violence. And sometimes it is very subtle.
- Regarding the Legion if the only rank females can reach is those of a priestess then this IS definitely a form of opression. The difference is if both share equal rights inside a caste. But that is definitely not true for the Legion.
And as said. When it comes to the Legion in Fallouts setting it does not make that much sense that they have such a harsh opinion regarding females. But that is what I think.
Quagmire69
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Maybe it does but telling me I talk out of my ass is not an effective way of arguing. I don't think my reasoning of socialism is wrong. If you want I can cite the books i've read on the subject. My opinion on Socialism is that it is a vacant ideology because the highest goal is utilitarian, I believe the same with the consumerism that has become the main ideology in the West.
I came to this belief after talking to my grandfather about when he travelled to the Soviet Union. He was not impressed at what had become of Russian society, alchoholism, abortion, vice were a plage on the Russian people, and the reason for Russias population decline. At the end of the trip he traveled through azerbaijan. He was quite impressed by the local people,, they didn't drink or smoke, they married early and had large happy families rather than aborting themselves out of existence. The reason for this he said was the Muslims of southern Russia looked to the future, were the Russians only cared about the present and said it was only a matter of time before the Muslims came to dominate the Russians.
GatheringCircle
First time out of the vault
Males are only allowed to be in the military though. So if both genders only have one role would that not make them equal? Even though one role is extremely dangerous and more demanding.
The caste system that Caesar uses is highly effective. It took Caesar 30 years to amass a force capable of fighting the NCR which has been around for 300 years. Caesar has expressed that he wants to change his society once he destroys the bear. He doesn't really specify what change though, but he does want to bring on some. But point being if the caste system works this well (as in the fastest forming army in fallout history) then he should use it to get everyone alive in the wastes working together. The NCR is trying in the same manner to get everyone together, but they do not indoctrinate others as well as Caesar does.
And Hitler managed it in 6 years (more or less but you get the picture).
Though that does not speak for "success" in the long term.
Also if you don't see the system in the Legion as oppression for females then I am afraid no one can help you. People can explain you the situation but they cant understand it for you.
Though that does not speak for "success" in the long term.
Also if you don't see the system in the Legion as oppression for females then I am afraid no one can help you. People can explain you the situation but they cant understand it for you.
ramessesjones
It Wandered In From the Wastes
The Legion are obviously the "bad guys", but what they going for them is they aren't so over the top bad, that its basically impossible to role play a character that would agree with them (like Fallout 3's Eden). You can play a fascist control freak, a warrior lifestyle thug or a misguided idealist academic who buys into Caesar's Hegelian Dialectics stuff and have legit reasons for siding with the Legion, other the ha ha funniness of world wide genocide most bad guys want.
This doesn't mean NCR is the necessarily good guys though. The real choice, assuming you're playing a character wants the best for the region, is Independent/House/NCR and whether you feel NCR is justified to annex the area against its will and violate their treaty with House breaking the friendly alliance he has with them and attempting to assassinate him. It is my opinion, within the context of the Mojave both NCR and the Legion are the bad guys, just that NCR is less bad (although both are less bad or even good in the context of their home regions), and that for the most part Legion vs. NCR argument is largely unnecessary.
This doesn't mean NCR is the necessarily good guys though. The real choice, assuming you're playing a character wants the best for the region, is Independent/House/NCR and whether you feel NCR is justified to annex the area against its will and violate their treaty with House breaking the friendly alliance he has with them and attempting to assassinate him. It is my opinion, within the context of the Mojave both NCR and the Legion are the bad guys, just that NCR is less bad (although both are less bad or even good in the context of their home regions), and that for the most part Legion vs. NCR argument is largely unnecessary.