Israel decides to go to Lebanon.
- Thread starter Pope Viper
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Since Suffer responded quite adequately, I'll just respond to a few points that I think need some more....attention.
The funny thing is that I've not seen anyone in this thread dispute that humans are being used as shields. Yet somehow you feel that this is so unbelievable and vital to a point about the conducts of the Israeli army that you continue to bring it up at every opportunity. Quite silly, one might say.
Shocking, isn't it?
Also, if you would actually come up with some non-fallacious arguments, the outbursts might cease.
Hell, I don't think there are that many people around that actually disagree with what Israel is doing (certainly not me, or Suffer), yet somehow you manage to turn us all against you by coming up with bullshit arguments in support of our views.
Heh.
You should start formulating your arguments more properly.
Judging by the sentence-parts you emphasized, I think you're talking about me disagreeing with you. I can only conclude from this that you think that I'm disagreeing with you because I want to troll you. Heh. Why?
Is it somehow impossible for me to disagree with you because I, somehow, actually disagree with you? No?
Well, the word arrogance seems to pop up again.
Also note that I only talked about 'generally considered'. Ie. what the international community thinks and acknowledges. It is, by chance, also what the Israelis know about how everyone (apparently, but them) thinks about the land.
Well, let me put this differently. Whether or not the land belongs to the Palestinians doesn't matter at all. By putting the wall on that land you are provoking the Palestinians, because you are severely hindering them on a property *they* consider their own. Whether or not it is theirs is irrelevant, since they will still be greatly offended by it anyway. And since you know this in advance, and it's quite easy to change the placing of the wall to not offend the Palestinians (that much), it is an act of provocation.
Also, Suffer, I don't think there are that many people that think that Israel does not have the right to do what they're doing.
What is your fascination with human shields? I have no problem believing that terrorists would use humans as shield. Come on, these are people that walk into cities with the sole purpose of blowing themselves up. Of course they're going to do stuff like that to further their ends.aegis said:
The funny thing is that I've not seen anyone in this thread dispute that humans are being used as shields. Yet somehow you feel that this is so unbelievable and vital to a point about the conducts of the Israeli army that you continue to bring it up at every opportunity. Quite silly, one might say.
Erm, that's usually the case when people disagree with you. When people disagree with you, they tend to think differently from you.
Shocking, isn't it?
Also, if you would actually come up with some non-fallacious arguments, the outbursts might cease.
Hell, I don't think there are that many people around that actually disagree with what Israel is doing (certainly not me, or Suffer), yet somehow you manage to turn us all against you by coming up with bullshit arguments in support of our views.
Heh.
...aegis said:
You should start formulating your arguments more properly.
Judging by the sentence-parts you emphasized, I think you're talking about me disagreeing with you. I can only conclude from this that you think that I'm disagreeing with you because I want to troll you. Heh. Why?
Is it somehow impossible for me to disagree with you because I, somehow, actually disagree with you? No?
Well, the word arrogance seems to pop up again.
I'm not questioning your right to build a wall, I'm questioning your right to building a wall on foreign terrority.aegis said:
Also note that I only talked about 'generally considered'. Ie. what the international community thinks and acknowledges. It is, by chance, also what the Israelis know about how everyone (apparently, but them) thinks about the land.
Well, let me put this differently. Whether or not the land belongs to the Palestinians doesn't matter at all. By putting the wall on that land you are provoking the Palestinians, because you are severely hindering them on a property *they* consider their own. Whether or not it is theirs is irrelevant, since they will still be greatly offended by it anyway. And since you know this in advance, and it's quite easy to change the placing of the wall to not offend the Palestinians (that much), it is an act of provocation.
I think the words 'my reality' are quite fitting.aegis said:
Also, Suffer, I don't think there are that many people that think that Israel does not have the right to do what they're doing.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I like how the first thing I see on that site is a Star of David-shaped shuriken spattered in the blood of Arabs.
so you must be ok with the fact that those human shields are actually those 200 dead innocent civilians.
no problem:in your own words you said that there shuold be no reason for someone not believeing israel, and yet in that same reply you said "why do you think israel is right" and explained it even. still cant see the contradiction?
its not on foreign territory its on the border of it, where else would it be?
heh, now there's a good laugh-the hammas-which i'm sorry to inform you , represent those poor unprovoked palastinians will stop being provoked until our wall will be in the bottom of the sea, with rest of us. the question is really why if those poor palestinians want peace so much, they refused to all of negotiations since, like 50 years ago? maybe its because they are controlled by extremists?
once again the terrors of war crush upon humanity ... but seariously doesnt it seem like isreal is becoming a bit more overzealous like bombing civiliand target left and right, making declarations that every civilian who hasnt evacouated south lebonan is agains them, and even not responding to the U.N. peacekeeping forces when they request to stop bombing when thheyre rockets are to close to theyre observation posts ?
aegis said:
Did he say that? No. He said we know about human shields. Presumably we all, a few exceptions nonwithstanding but certainly Sander and me, condemn human shields. We never approved of it, we never defended it. So there is NO reason whatsoever to bring it up as an argument, as it does not serve to defend any point or counter any argument by us.
I explained why there was no contradiction, now you're misquoting him. He never said there is no reason for someone not believing Israel, he said there are plenty of people that *do* believe Israel.
No, it's not
aegis said:
There are few Palestinians left that are not extremists. Let's face it, any sane person living in the West Bank/Gaza strip probably left years ago, those remaining have their reasons for staying and the reason is usually hate for Israel.
And you're dodging his point. His point is that the wall is placed on Palestinian ground rather than on the Palestinian-Israeli border. Whether or not Hamas will calm down if the wall is placed on the border is not really his point.
the thing is about the barrier, that first of all those grounds which the barrier stands on, don't have any actual value... when the barrier borders were planned, the planning was not based on "let's take as many grounds as we can" but it was planned for a logical standing of the barrier, so that it will be useful in it's purpose... the purpose of the barrier is stopping suicide bombers from penetrating the israeli cities and blowing up inside buses and restraunts. while there's no one to negotiate about real borders and a palestinian nation on the other side, the barrier is a temporary solution... by no means does it try to take away more lands... these lands are irrelevant from value point, and even the extremists and the terrorist group's intention is not fighting for these specific lands. the lands they want are jerusalem, and haifa, and all the cities they once populated(or they claim they populated). those lands(like jerusalem or haifa) will never be handed to them just like the US won't hand over it's whole territory to the indians left, regardless of who really deserves that land.
once the terrorist groups which currantly rule over the palestinians surrender their terrorist ways or the palestinians themselves remove the terrorist groups, and they will talk about reasonable borders, there will be no problem removing this barrier for making new borders. sadly currently surely, and even before things went really bad out here a while back we have noone to negotiate on the other side because the hamas are not willing to make real and serious negotiations, and we can't negotiate with abu-mazen and the palestinian government because they don't have any power...
once the terrorist groups which currantly rule over the palestinians surrender their terrorist ways or the palestinians themselves remove the terrorist groups, and they will talk about reasonable borders, there will be no problem removing this barrier for making new borders. sadly currently surely, and even before things went really bad out here a while back we have noone to negotiate on the other side because the hamas are not willing to make real and serious negotiations, and we can't negotiate with abu-mazen and the palestinian government because they don't have any power...
According to this UN Report, "the land between the Barrier and the Green Line constitutes some of the most fertile in the West Bank." About 7% of the West Bank is on the wrong side of the barrier, and potentionally 10% depending on if the Israeli government follows through on various plans.
"Israel has the right to 'defend' itself"
REAL NEWS COVERAGE ON THE PRESSING ISSUES
For those that support Israel's actions, THAT should be an eye opener. For those that think Lebanon voted the "wrong way" in a FREE ELECTION, get out of America, we don't need your fascist energy poisoning the water supply. For those that think America is "still" a great country (Like it ever was to begin with. Look up Shay's rebellion and piece together the real reason the American Revolution was started, business interests) then you are supporting every ounce of evil hatred and slaughter. American tax payers are helping to fund this war. 3 billion a year, the equivilant to $500 for every Israeli citizen, comes from the USA to pay for Israel's weapons, which are purchased from American manufacturers. The Federal government likes to say its a "defensive measure" to "fight terrorism" in the middle east. Breeds terrorism in my opinion.
Why doesn't the mainstream media show us these horrible pictures of the destruction we are supporting? Besides 9/11 that is. Because if we actually knew what we were supporting, we would over throw every one in the government responsible, and strip them of their money, because they are the real fucking terrorists. They strike TERROR in hearts of the 'innocent' domestic civilian population (making us fear attacks, bombings, even strange behavior in our neighbors) to meet their political needs. That is a definition of terrorism if i've ever heard one. Ask again, who are the REAL terrorists?
Why is it, when you observe a global map of US military installations, you see a noose tightening around every political border on the globe? Why is it, when the US invades Iraq, they recieve a limit on how much oil they pump, decreasing supply, which jacks up the price we all pay. Why has FREE ENERGY been around for years yet we've never heard about it? Google Free Energy in Google Video, you will be very pissed. Why does the US need the technology for warfare that will stand unchallenged by any other nation? Why is the Federal government wiping it's ass with the Constitution? Why is the world in such a state, that we need to be asking these questions?
Because... They Want Your Soul
REAL NEWS COVERAGE ON THE PRESSING ISSUES
For those that support Israel's actions, THAT should be an eye opener. For those that think Lebanon voted the "wrong way" in a FREE ELECTION, get out of America, we don't need your fascist energy poisoning the water supply. For those that think America is "still" a great country (Like it ever was to begin with. Look up Shay's rebellion and piece together the real reason the American Revolution was started, business interests) then you are supporting every ounce of evil hatred and slaughter. American tax payers are helping to fund this war. 3 billion a year, the equivilant to $500 for every Israeli citizen, comes from the USA to pay for Israel's weapons, which are purchased from American manufacturers. The Federal government likes to say its a "defensive measure" to "fight terrorism" in the middle east. Breeds terrorism in my opinion.
Why doesn't the mainstream media show us these horrible pictures of the destruction we are supporting? Besides 9/11 that is. Because if we actually knew what we were supporting, we would over throw every one in the government responsible, and strip them of their money, because they are the real fucking terrorists. They strike TERROR in hearts of the 'innocent' domestic civilian population (making us fear attacks, bombings, even strange behavior in our neighbors) to meet their political needs. That is a definition of terrorism if i've ever heard one. Ask again, who are the REAL terrorists?
Why is it, when you observe a global map of US military installations, you see a noose tightening around every political border on the globe? Why is it, when the US invades Iraq, they recieve a limit on how much oil they pump, decreasing supply, which jacks up the price we all pay. Why has FREE ENERGY been around for years yet we've never heard about it? Google Free Energy in Google Video, you will be very pissed. Why does the US need the technology for warfare that will stand unchallenged by any other nation? Why is the Federal government wiping it's ass with the Constitution? Why is the world in such a state, that we need to be asking these questions?
Because... They Want Your Soul
Edge386 said:
Philip K. Dick said:
Oh good, sensationalist crap that appeals to absolutely nothing but feeling.Edge386 said:
Yes, dear Edge, people die in a war. That's the nature of war. And in such an event, innocents die and buildings get damaged there's nothing one can do about that.
However, showing us some bullshit pictures comparing destroyed buildings in World War II and in Lebanon now isn't actually any kind of solid argument. All it's saying is 'Eeeee, look at them, they've destroyed stuff, they're EVIL! [and because it's world war 2 you were comparing:]NAZIS!'
We all know that people die there. The fact that children have died doesn't actually make Israel's response unmeasured. I'd love to see some pictures of, say, suicide bombings there as well. But, those websites being propaganda websites instead of actual news websites, they only show the side of the story they wish to show.
I don't live in America, thank you.Edge386 said:
Also, yes, there is something called voting the wrong way. People who voted for dicks like Hitler voted the wrong way, for instance.
Or are you going to be arguing that any choice a people make is a good one, even if it involves killing people and violating another nation's sovereignity.
Ah yes, because trying to stop people that are killing your citizens is done by not fighting them. Of course.Edge386 said:
Because they do show them.Edge386 said:
Mbwahaha.Edge386 said:
I love this shit.
Do you know why we haven't heard of hydrogen as an energy source? Because it isn't a *source* of energy, it's a pollution-free means of transporting energy.
You see, to split water into hydrogen and oxygen costs exactly the amount of energy that is released when hydrogen and oxygen combust again to form water. Hence, it makes a very good means of transporting energy, but that's all.
Edge386 said:
Fixed.
Kotario said:
If I had some Robert Heinlein books around I'd smack you hard with some quote proving that pacifism and anarchy are evil.
Robert Heinlein said:
Edge, a little history - ever since it's founding, Israel was, more or less, in a state of constant war with it's Arabian neighbours, and you can only throw stones at a sleeping beast for so long a time span.
You state you want to change the world - instead of assaulting those tired of suicidal bombers detonating themselves in crowded cities, maybe you should direct your 'almighty wrath' towards those who twist other people's minds to make them dress in C4 and detonate ina city bus full of civilians and children.
That's my few cents, Suffer and Sunder have already adequately dissected your posts.
You state you want to change the world - instead of assaulting those tired of suicidal bombers detonating themselves in crowded cities, maybe you should direct your 'almighty wrath' towards those who twist other people's minds to make them dress in C4 and detonate ina city bus full of civilians and children.
That's my few cents, Suffer and Sunder have already adequately dissected your posts.
Kotario said:
Excellent, now pretend I was the one who quoted that.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Still ROFLCOPTERing about "business interests."
If anything, being a part of the Commonwealth was great for merchants. Great Britain had a minimal loss involved in losing the Americas because they weren't all that profitable.
I suppose if we look at everything through the disgruntled anarchist's lens, every war in the history of man was fought for "business interests," as opposed to other stuff like ethnic competition, cultural preservation, or Liebensraum.
If anything, being a part of the Commonwealth was great for merchants. Great Britain had a minimal loss involved in losing the Americas because they weren't all that profitable.
I suppose if we look at everything through the disgruntled anarchist's lens, every war in the history of man was fought for "business interests," as opposed to other stuff like ethnic competition, cultural preservation, or Liebensraum.
Actually aegis, since Sander humbled me in another thread. Lets take both of our posted pictures that prove two seperate points and converge them. For instance, make Israel hide behind a family, and Palestine do the same, as they fire on each other. Both sides of warmongers of their respective countries are hiding behind the people that inhabit that country for their political needs.
Can we agree on that point?
Can we agree on that point?
Edge386 said:
Except that that would not be accurate.
Unlike Parker-Stone's Team America and South Park eschewed social views would have it, the truth does not always lie in the middle, it is not always a bit of everyone's fault.
Maybe another slightly related topic that kind of orbits this one is: "Why don't gypsies have their own nation?"
Is it because it's difficult to ascertain their origins?
Is it because it's difficult to ascertain their origins?