Goral said:
What? Junktown "gang" was on Gizmo's payroll and they were basically a cheap source of muscle for him. They were basically "raiders for the poor" that liked to do whatever they wanted.
As for The Blades, we don't know much about them so saying that they have no grounding in reality is baseless. Personally I think it's very possible that people would like to come together and live as a small group that would have more freedom rather than being random people in some bigger community.
The point was the lack of exposition. It's never explained or hinted at how Junktown or the Boneyard gangs sustain themselves (you can
assume something, but compared to the amount of thought that went into Shady Sands, the Hub, Brotherhood, or even Adytum it stands out like a sore thumb). Pointing out the flaws in Fallout 3, but ignoring the exact same flaws in Fallout is double standards per definition.
In Poland (where I think you're also from) there are about 2.2 doctors per 1000 people and you have to wait years to get specialized treatment. Sure, there are almost 40 million people here but look at the percentage: it's 0.22%. So assuming that in a post-nuclear USA that percentage could be even lower (why wouldn't it be? We have many Universities and yet the number is so low, so in a post-apocalyptic world where only in the Vaults people would have that knowledge plus some few other exceptions it would not be easy to produce doctors or even paramedics) I think shihonage's assumption is correct.
The key error here is comparing a non-collapsed, industrialised society (though shihonage might disagree on the subject of his own country) to a post-collapse society where a majority of the population was killed off. We have a centralised system of health care that provides a certain standard for everyone which is coupled with extensive transportation systems that allow people to reach their doctors and hospitals.
Fallout has neither. You have isolated medical practices and small hospitals scattered throughout the land and few people can afford transportation. Population is, likewise, distributed in settlements throughout the wasteland. Due to that, there's little risk of overcrowded clinics barely able to provide the most basic of services, since there's very few clients at any one given time (Razlo, Morbid, CoC hospitals, pretty much any medical place in Fallout 2 and Fallout: NV). Except, of course, if you set up shop in a more populated area with the intent on healing the poor and the sick asking for little, if anything in return (the Mormon fort). Unsurprisingly, if after the collapse you're in a populated area and don't charge for your services, you're overcrowded.
What? In Fallout 1 the only prostitutes I remember where in a hotel (in Junktown where there was also a casino) or bar/casino (in the Hub) where there was a constant influx of clients with cash. It doesn't change the fact that he was nitpicking here but on the other hand it's also clear that you don't remember F1 that well. When was the last time you played it?
shih's point was that prostitutes were standing on empty corners with no clients passing them by. Neither Fallout nor Fallout 2 ever showed clients passing by prostitutes or picking them up. You have static prostitutes standing on empty streets and static clients in casinos. You're connecting the dots in Fallout 2, but refuse to do so in New Vegas. That's the very definition of double standards.
And I find it sincere. As if Poles would do otherwise. His point about robots using precious energy and materials is sound. I think that in a post-apocalyptic world (even in more advanced and civilized than the one we know from F1) there would be more important things than robots or neon signs. New Vegas is basically new New Reno.
Yes, we would do otherwise, as would do Russians and any other nation. People are not rational, but they aren't entirely instinct-driven either. This ties in into another problem: you are consistently treating the Fallout wold as a post-nuclear one and the people as survivors. This is erroneous. Do you consider modern Europeans to be post-Napoleonic survivors? If not, then why are you considering people over six generations later to be post-nuclear survivors?
The nuclear war is the foundation of the Fallout world, yes, but it was a singular event two centuries earlier by the time of Fallout: New Vegas. Since then, people established new societies, new civilizations, and started building a new world. People are meeting their basic needs are are moving forward, needing circuses on top of their daily bread. This is a perfectly normal development, one that has been witnessed throughout history. Sure, there might be more important things
objectively, but
subjectively, people like shiny things and entertainment.
Side point: what does the robot have that the people need? People scavenge what they need and want. Destroying a robot and picking it apart fulfills none of that, unless you like robot innards decorating your house.
I have to note you're being silly because I also share this opinion and as you can see above more people agreed with him (not counting users who did so with irony). So it is shared by other users on this forum (how large is that group of people is another matter).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall you or a majority of other users on this forum (apart from singular examples) ranting about how everything post-Fallout 1 is garbage.
lol
When you look at a Palace of Culture and Science do you imagine it's Empire State Building? In FNV (and F3) you have everything in 3D so when I see a computer model of a house I don't have to imagine it anymore. On the other hand in Fallout 1 and F2 everything is more "sketchy" allowing imagination to work.
Suspension of disbelief, bro. And technically, everything you see in Fallout 1/2 is a computer model too, the only difference being that it was pre-rendered and stored as sprites.
shihonage said:
Rather disappointing to see a mod resort to strawmen.
Another strawman.
How about you reply with something substantial? Like demonstrating how you're
not elevating Fallout 1 to an unreachable plateau of perfection.
Another strawman. It is intellectually dishonest to compare gangs to talking cowboy robots on the scale of plausibility. Especially when said robots can be made town sheriff.
No, it really isn't. You're talking about "theme park" design, which is related to the consistency and versimilitude of a presented world. I point out that Fallout 1 has these problems in the same aspect, and your response is to move the goal posts. You made a point about theme park design exemplified by Primm Slimm, not exclusively about cowboy robots. Yet now you deny that.
For the record, Protectrons were established as one of the primary security models used before the war, so you're using pre-existing functionality. And if you don't like him as a security enforcer, uh, don't make him the sheriff? You'd have a point if the game forced you into picking him, but as it stands, you have three options. Meyers or the NCR are perfectly plausible alternatives to Primm Slimm. Don't blame Obsidian for choice sof your own.
Is this a joke? The less people you have, the less proportionately doctors you have, and the less you have producers of the crucial medical supplies.
No, it is a simple understanding of the fact that the amount of doctors isn't tied linearly to the amount of population. With a much smaller population you have much smaller demand for medicine. Sure, advanced surgery and medical care might be hard to come by, but the basic needs can be met by anyone with a first aid handbook and some tools. That's the key point. While the overall standard of medical care is going to be much, much lower, the knowledge is there and can be learned and/or taught. As exemplified by pretty much any local sawbones starting with Fallout 1.
Sure, medical care's availability might have been kicked down a few notches, but the difference between the 18th/19th century and the world of Fallout is that the latter has already developed its medical sciences. It was fragmented by the nuclear war, but not erased. Which is, y'know, shown in every Fallout game sans Fallout 3.
Ok, so we are not in a post-apocalyptic world anymore. What's the point of a Fallout game, named after nuclear Fallout, if it veers far enough off course to have so little to do with post-apocalyptic vision?
To be honest, only Fallout 3 fits the bill for a post-apocalyptic game. Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout: New Vegas, are all games that use nuclear war as a backdrop, yes, but it isn't the primary focus of the games. The focus is always on the development of communities and exploring the themes of persistent conflict between humans even in the face of apocalypse, directions in which societies may develop if the preceding society crumbles, the adoption or rejection of the pre-War legacy, and so on and so forth.
The point of a post-apocalyptic setting is to give the author(s) the possibility to freely explore themes without being bound by earlier history and circumstances. Nuclear war creates a blank slate, but it's not the slate that's important, but what's written on it. Focusing on the blank slate gives you Fallout 3. Which, I'm sure, is not your intention.
Wait... less humans per square mile means less of them get injured by wildlife between settlements?
Actually more humans would just demolish or otherwise control the wildlife to ensure safety of passing between settlements.
A lower population density means less opportunity for people to clash with the local wildlife. Of course, assuming that the local wildlife would aggro 100% of the time, which simply doesn't happen.
Making something "rich and respectable" on paper and completely failing to do that in terms of visual/level/human design in a first-person shooter is a complete failure.
Isometric games can get away with abstraction, but when the view is shifted to first-person, you have a far heavier responsibility when it comes to your quasi-realism. All your abstractions start to stand out like a sore thumb.
Oh hey, I'm not sure if you forgot about it, but you didn't actually address my point. Point out how Novac's location design doesn't support what's stated in the game, please. As it is, you're asking me to believe you on your word. I don't do that, at all.
They had "losers" walking around and such. Given tremendous amount of abstraction isometric perspective allows, it was sufficient. The Star Trek syndrome where each planet is represented by a small village, worked quite well in Fallout.
Except you raised a point about prostitutes picking up people and merchants being visited by clients. You're constantly moving goal posts.
Doesn't work so well in first-person games which take pride in forcing player on long walks because supposedly all this space is "real".
Funny how I have no problem suspending my disbelief in this aspect. Or maybe I'm a retard, is that what you're implying?
Any power received from an abundant source has to be put to the limit in a post-apocalyptic universe. You're not going to channel it into "neon lights", just regular streetlights, IF EVEN.
There's never enough of it for basic stuff like generators, and hey, the retarded cowboy sheriff robots nead to eat too amirite.
I guess you missed the large, spinning neon for Gizmo's casino, then? Power is channeled where people want it, not where it's actually needed. You're working on some weird assumption that people in the world of Fallout are perfectly rational in contrast to our own reality, which doesn't follow and is completely untrue.
Thanks for reminding me. The game starts off in a house of a doctor who has no patients except you, has supplies for complex surgery and an infinite amount of time to spend nursing you to health.
That was the first blow to integrity of this world. Post-post-apocalyptic or not.
Totally. It's completely incomphrehensible how a former Vault physician living in a quiet town where the worst injuries are Gecko bites and basic injuries would take his time to nurse a survivor of a gunshot wound to the head to health. I'm not sure what standards you are using, but making sure that you have the right tools for the job is just common sense for any profession, particularly doctors (and judging by Mitchell's age, he had plenty of time to do so).
It's funny how you point that out as a supposed flaw, yet conveniently ignore the fact that aside from the CoC hospital and Razlo, no clinic in Fallout/Fallout 2 is ever portrayed as having patients. With the exception of two (Andrew's and Fung's), non-Vault medical facilities are also portrayed as generally pretty spartan and underequipped. Hell, Painless Doc Johnson can outfit you with subdermal armour implants in a
Redding clinic, with only a basic operating table and no Auto-Doc.
But, of course, you are going to handwave that as "off screen" supplies and gear, while hammering against e.g. Mitchell. Which is, by the way, the definition of double standards.
Not in New Vegas they aren't, because New Vegas population is implausible. Real people living in similar circumstances would gang up on the robot and 5 minutes later they would be happily dividing scraps.
Why? What does Victor posess that Goodsprings doesn't have already? He doesn't supply spare parts, fuel for generators, fission batteries, water, or food. What amenity could scrapping him provide that the people of Goodsprings couldn't get in an easier, less troublesome way?
Aren't you getting tired of all these strawmen? I know I am.
You're dodging the point.
Clever... I guess? It does amuse me how my bashing of a game makes people go all ad hominem.
Aand finish with another strawman for good measure. You do know that putting words in people's mouths doesn't make it so?
Just checking.
Only going by what you post. And so far, it's a pretty constant stream of "Fallout 1 is King/Everything else SUCKS". Peppered with dodging the point, moving goal posts, and a general lack of
intellectual honesty.
When my character would die, and this happened a lot, I would actually go back to character creation and create someone different. It never occurred to me to use quickload every 10 seconds as is the norm in pretty much every other game. This is probably why I never was very good at stealing--facing the consequences of getting caught without reloading was really not a good career move. 
