Kotaku Ranks The Fallouts

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by Brother None, Jun 30, 2013.

  1. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    I'm with you. FNV has some great dialogue and some great NPCs. I especially like the characterization. Speaking with Caesar is a much different experience than speaking with Mr House. Good thing they carried that over from Fallout/Fallout 2.

    Dialogue is one of the strong aspects of FNV, since it provides the glue that joins the world together, instead of making it a disjointed mess.
     
  2. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    I think "writing" is ambiguous word.
    I'd say dialog, plot and storytelling.
    I had considered "writing" as a dialog.

    I admit Fo1's plot is best among Fallout
     
  3. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Sure, I wasn't surprised by the idea that Fallout was Tim Cain's baby and Fallout 2 wasn't, I was surprised by you bringing up Fargo for that. Brian Fargo was not more involved in Fallout 2 than he was in 1, as far as I'm aware. He wasn't on the design team of either.
     
  4. Per

    Per Vault Consort Staff Member Admin

    Apr 1, 2004
    Actually, that's a loaded question.
     
  5. Sobboth

    Sobboth It Wandered In From the Wastes

    177
    Aug 29, 2010
    From my point of view, there are almost no enjoyable/involving dialogues in FNV.
    You have some dialogues which are very interesting and that tell you more about the lore but are in no way very interactive.
    The problem is in the answers your PC can make, there are mostly very boring, blank and humorless. They do the job by providing you different outcome but don't have any characterization so even if the NPC have a good text, it's more or less a one way dialogue.
    The style of answers of your PC in fallout1/fallout 2 is much more personalized and remind me pen and paper when you roleplay.
    You can really feel cool and a bad ass with the answers you had in F1/F2 unlike in FNV.
    While i can recall some interesting FNV character conversation I can't recall a single good answer of my PC.
    I can recall plenty of great PC answers in F2 : with Sulik, Myron (when you have high med or science, awesome), one of the drug dealer in New Reno (Jules i think?), Renesco (how you can troll him, was hilarious), the boss of New Reno, the bodyguard of Salvatore, Lynette (how you can insult/bother her), etc...
    The style is hugely different from your PC FNV answers which are very neutral,mostly short and unimaginative.
    Fallout 1/2 dialogues are more "lively."
     
  6. Lexx

    Lexx Background Radiant
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Which is kind of how Obsidian wanted it, as stated by Josh long time ago. They don't want to force any kind of emotional tone on your character, as it would limit the roleplaying value / it eats up your imagination.

    It's not a lack of good writers, but design decision.
     
  7. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    Actually, Fo1's dialog sometimes moronic for me
    even for final conversation with master speech isn't that good.
    2 and NV's dialog is impressive
    fo3? nah....

    although FO1's dialog is stupid, Arcanum's dialog is one of the best.
     
  8. shihonage

    shihonage Made in USSR

    May 8, 2007
    It was close enough. Both methods load up the other person's position as something it isn't, in order to make it easier to dispute or ridicule.
     
  9. Sobboth

    Sobboth It Wandered In From the Wastes

    177
    Aug 29, 2010
    I have guessed it was by design but i don't buy the "because it limits the roleplaying value" argument.
    For me, they do it this way because it was an AAA games and they wanted to reach the biggest market possible and in order to do that better to be blank than displease some player with your style.
    And It's also much easier and faster, everybody can do it.
    But style is what make cult games, makes it more memorable and dialogues more lively even of some did not dig it.
    In FNV it's like your PC is a robot without any personality.
    It's bad design for me.
    I can understand some dislike the Fallout 1/2 dialogues tone but it was a fallout characteristic and a huge plus for me.
    And they could have choose to make different answers with distinctive tone in order to roleplay it like you want instead of everything neutral.
    Baldur gate 2 PC answers for example was much less characterized than in the Fallout game but it was not completely sanitized. Your PC did not feel like a robot.
    But for not limiting your "roleplay" no more clever lines, bad ass lines, funny lines, complex lines nothing.
    Great.
     
  10. shihonage

    shihonage Made in USSR

    May 8, 2007
    Indeed, you don't need all-bland dialogue, just a couple of generic lines, and the rest you can have match some of the player's possible current moods.

    Those who want bland dialogue will just ignore the "wacky" stuff and those looking for "wacky" will ignore the bland choices.

    This serves to help player further project themselves into their character, or breathe life into whoever they imagine them to be.

    Making it all bland is a short-sighted design decision. This is not a blank slate, because blank slate implies something can be built upon it. This is just... forced sterilization of character.
     
  11. Lexx

    Lexx Background Radiant
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    If you want the game to be coherent, you then would need a lot happy, sad, angry, neutral sentences in like every node of a dialog. Yeah, have fun writing all that and not fucking up the dialogtree.
     
  12. shihonage

    shihonage Made in USSR

    May 8, 2007
    Not a lot, but more than ZERO would do, yeah? There are games that did it better than FO:NV so let's not go into "if FO:NV didn't have colorful dialogue options, it's impossible".
     
  13. Lexx

    Lexx Background Radiant
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Well, I never said that.


    Just pointing out that what you want is not without problems.

    Remember the cathedral in Fo1. The dialogues in the whole location have a very aggressive tone. Everything is pointing at you kicking the shit out of everyone there. Even if you know nothing about the Master or his mutant army. It's a obvious design flaw.
     
  14. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    The Dialogue in New Vegas that has character is the one that has an specific effect, Skillchecks, perk dialogue, taunts and delivery of uncovered information. The only blanks slate dialogue was the one that just asks basic Information and accepts quests. That's a good use of the dialogue system.
     
  15. Sobboth

    Sobboth It Wandered In From the Wastes

    177
    Aug 29, 2010
    I strongly disagree, they are very neutral, they have absolutely not style and almost no tone.
    Damn as i said i can understand that some people like it better this way but it's hypocrite to deny it.
    You should really replay Fallout 1/2 the difference is obvious.
     
  16. Sobboth

    Sobboth It Wandered In From the Wastes

    177
    Aug 29, 2010
    As i said Baldur for example did not have colorless dialogues option without being as extreme as Fallout.
    Worked well and as far as i know fallout 1/2 have almost always neutral dialogues option if you want to roleplay neutral you could do it.
    Also your are pointing a mistake in the scenario, have nothing to do with dialogue style.
     
  17. shihonage

    shihonage Made in USSR

    May 8, 2007
    That's like claiming that a burned down tree is the same as a tree that has a few burns because they both have been subjected to fire.

    A disingenious comparison of gross total of quality of a game's dialogue to a mere scenario in another game.

    I realize that sometimes one has a kneejerk reaction to say something back, but flailing wildly isn't always the best option.
     
  18. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    I sometimes got annoyed in FO2 because a lot of the time the only way of going through certain dialogue lines was to choose very goofy or overly agressive lines of dialogue without an alternative and forced you to break character just to advance, which defeats the point of role playing.
     
  19. shihonage

    shihonage Made in USSR

    May 8, 2007
    Balance is hard to find, and apparently FO:NV designers opted for what they saw as the safest path. The unfortunate result of course, is blandness.

    I gotta say I would probably prefer blandness to being forced to select from constant bipolar derp, but neither is optimal.
     
  20. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    That's pretty much how many RPGs, including Baldur's Gate, roll. Having 5-6 different intonations that make sense in most dialogs would be a writing chore, and you always have the possibility that even the offered choices do not satisfy the player. Fallout 1 and 2 had lots of choices sometimes, and several times I found nothing that was exactly like I wanted it. No solution is perfect. But personally I prefer that random, informative dialog be toneless, and skill checks have a tone because you can clearly know what's going on in that case.

    It's not like the first two games had the PC delivering hours-end, passionate monologues either. Most responses were also terse and brief, save for the more important ones (IE skill checks) and some flavor text which half the time were wacky references. So I don't see what's the big problem here, and unless you want a Mass Effect/DA2 style dialog which has set tones in every conversation I fail to see what could satisfy.