Mass Effect 3 discussion

[Surf Solar]

That and running out of time things in the original fallout was really annoying. The combat was bad already, the time points thing made it unbearable.

What the hell are you talking about?

 

[Walpknut]

Looks like someone didn't play the game but it's critizing it anyways.......again.

 

[Sabirah]

That and running out of time things in the original fallout was really annoying. The combat was bad already, the time points thing made it unbearable.

What the hell are you talking about?

The Action points were annoying and the designers didn't give you enough

Looks like someone didn't play the game but it's critizing it anyways.......again.

"oh mn guys sabirah is suhc a loser for nt rembring everything about a game she hasnt' played in liek 2 years.

 

[Walpknut]

The designers didn't give you enough? maybe you should have tried giving points to that little Agility Stat.... just an idea....

 

[Surf Solar]

Yep, you know, there is a manual and such. :/ Hell, it's even written in detail ingame how the formulas work. There are drugs, perks and stuff even further raising your AP. You still haven't bothered elaborating how exactly Action Points are "annoying". Does it not give you "the full experience" or is not "immersing" you enough?

 

[Ilosar]

You still haven't bothered elaborating how exactly Action Points are "annoying".

She did. The game didn't give you enough, so you are too limited in what you can do in a turn. Workarounds like drugs wouldn't fix the issue much if you believe this. I disagree, by the way, but don't ignore arguments and then pretend they weren't brought up.

Does it not give you "the full experience" or is not "immersing" you enough?

Why must you use implied insults, lame ''wit'' and eyerolls every second post? Can't you disagree with someone without resorting to such childish behavior?

With FP mode its more like "Who shoots first and who runs out of ammo or life points first".

In Call of Duty, maybe. But Mass Effect gives you enough special abilities to negate that sort of playstyle. Doesn't matter that the enemy shot first if I have a barrier that knocks them down if they manage to puch through it. Or if I can close the distance in the blink of an eye. Or if I'm invisible. Or a drone takes fire for me. Or I enter bullet time and waste them before they can fire again. Or my reply is a biotic field tossing them across the railing. I just listed one possibility for each class; there are much more. Also, most battles in Fallout did end being decided by who shot first, in case of equal equipment. Or who gets a crit first. Dying to a lucky crit always made me rage.

 

[Surf Solar]

You still haven't bothered elaborating how exactly Action Points are "annoying".

She did. The game didn't give you enough, so you are too limited in what you can do in a turn. Workarounds like drugs wouldn't fix the issue much if you believe this. I disagree, by the way, but don't ignore arguments and then pretend they weren't brought up.

How is "they are annoying and too few" a valid statement/exploration? It's the same if I would say "The creator of chess seriously sucks for not giving me 4-5 kings or queens at the same time". If one doesn't even try understanding how a system works and play by its rules, then I call out on that, it's as simple as that.

Does it not give you "the full experience" or is not "immersing" you enough?

Why must you use implied insults, lame ''wit'' and eyerolls every second post? Can't you disagree with someone without resorting to such childish behavior?

I didn't start to throw around empty buzzwords like "full experience" or "immersion".

 

[Sabirah]

You still haven't bothered elaborating how exactly Action Points are "annoying".

She did. The game didn't give you enough, so you are too limited in what you can do in a turn. Workarounds like drugs wouldn't fix the issue much if you believe this. I disagree, by the way, but don't ignore arguments and then pretend they weren't brought up.

How is "they are annoying and too few" a valid statement/exploration? It's the same if I would say "The creator of chess seriously sucks for not giving me 4-5 kings or queens at the same time". If one doesn't even try understanding how a system works and play by its rules, then I call out on that, it's as simple as that.

It's annoying because it is limiting. There are so many scenarios I remember where I was stuck in an unwinnable situation because of some stupid gameplay element or another.

Does it not give you "the full experience" or is not "immersing" you enough?

Why must you use implied insults, lame ''wit'' and eyerolls every second post? Can't you disagree with someone without resorting to such childish behavior?

^ this

Nobody can just disagree and be cool about it here (or the internet at large) It has to be a war whenever somebody says something different

 

[Surf Solar]

Nobody can just disagree and be cool about it here (or the internet at large) It has to be a war whenever somebody says something different

No, it's you not getting the difference between someone disagreeing with one another (which is perfectly fine) and people calling out stupid things.

No one would have said anything if you'd have said "I don't really like the combat in Fallout, I can't directly control my partymembers". Valid, often critisied here. "I don't like the combat because there is a lack of combat stances" - true, I'd agree. "The animations, even though adjustable, tend to be a bit too slow" - true. "The combat in late game relies too much on critical eyeshots and gets too easy"- yup, agreed. Fallouts combat is far from perfect and has its flaws, no one denies that here.

But saying "it's limiting me" is a weird statement. How is it limiting you? The enemies are playing within the same system. If you were often caught in desperate situations in the game, then you probably took wrong decisions in the fight, made a gimped build or simply "suck" at the game. This is hardly the fault of the combat system, that's all we wanted to say here.

 

[Crni Vuk]

^ this

Nobody can just disagree and be cool about it here (or the internet at large) It has to be a war whenever somebody says something different

I can assure you that NMA is now much more friendly then it was in the past. You burn Fallout 1s combat and I mean you are still alive.

It's annoying because it is limiting. There are so many scenarios I remember where I was stuck in an unwinnable situation because of some stupid gameplay element or another.

Understandable. But that is part of a turn based game play. And it is more about your preference then the gameplay. You already said that you do not enjoy 90% of the combat in games (if I remember correctly feel free to correct me). So how much of it is actually part of your opinion and the fault of the game ? I mean it feels a bit like talking with people that think sport sucks because they are not athletic. How can it be the error of "sport" that they dont enjoy to do it ? Not everyone likes everything but soccer or football is not inherently bad just because someone is "lazy" to train/move - without the intention to insult anyone.

its no difference if you take either Jagged Alliance (one franchise which had without a doubt some of the best TB game play) or a few newer games like Silent Storm.

If you don't like that kind of game play its alright. But don't blame it on the game being inherently flawed because it does not suit your expectations. For example I would never get the idea to convince people that turn based combat should replace real time action oriented game play for example. Doom or Crysis would be a worse game with TB combat just as how Fallout became a worse game playing in real time/first person. And I liked the gameplay in Crysis for example very much as I do enjoy shooters as well hence why I dissliked the combat in Fallout 3 so much it was neither RPG nor clear Shooter.

The developers if you believe it or not chose the TB combat and Gurps system for Fallout 1 on purpose. This decision was even made before the developers decided to do a post-apoc game - the very early demo/show version was a dude in medieval armor fighting with a sword but even then it was the same action point system. And while it was not perfect it did the job for that time well enough. Would they make some things different today ? Maybe. Probably even. But it would still be a TB combat I am sure. My first experience with Fallout was a very hard one. It was difficult to get in the game at first. But later I tried it again and it worked. And since then I enjoy it very much.

 

[Sabirah]

Snip

I realize it's a personal issue, But that's all criticism really. Now I don't know the nuts and bolts and numbers underlying fallout, But the difficulty curb was so out of wack. I remember having to save a million times on the way to New Reno because every time I got stopped for a random encounter it was 12 guys with AK-47s and a desire for delicious Sabirah blood and no room to run away like a little girl. Those incidents really stood out to me and made the game really really annoying to finish just because unless you were traveling with a large group of people then you were screwed (even with a bunch of guys on your side you had a big chance of getting capped because one guy shot one lucky burst and riddled you with so many bullets you'd look like swiss cheese afterwards) Stuff like that really made the game frustrating and made the best parts of Fallout and F2 less good because it took a million deaths to get there.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

In Call of Duty, maybe. But Mass Effect gives you enough special abilities to negate that sort of playstyle. Doesn't matter that the enemy shot first if I have a barrier that knocks them down if they manage to puch through it. Or if I can close the distance in the blink of an eye. Or if I'm invisible. Or a drone takes fire for me. Or I enter bullet time and waste them before they can fire again. Or my reply is a biotic field tossing them across the railing. I just listed one possibility for each class; there are much more. Also, most battles in Fallout did end being decided by who shot first, in case of equal equipment. Or who gets a crit first. Dying to a lucky crit always made me rage.

Other than lucky criticals Mass Effect is just the same as Fallout or Dragon Age or the Witcher 2, if you've built your character effectively you'll breeze through but if you've built a suboptimal (for combat) character you'll run into difficulty. That's nothing really to do with turn based vs real time. If you took Mass Effect 2 and made a turn based mod for it with the Unreal Development Kit the drones, barriers and biotic fields would work the same way and still be dependent on your build choices. And plenty of games have one hit kill weapons that can be just as annoying and probably more common than critical hits.

I realize it's a personal issue, But that's all criticism really. Now I don't know the nuts and bolts and numbers underlying fallout, But the difficulty curb was so out of wack. I remember having to save a million times on the way to New Reno because every time I got stopped for a random encounter it was 12 guys with AK-47s and a desire for delicious Sabirah blood and no room to run away like a little girl. Those incidents really stood out to me and made the game really really annoying to finish just because unless you were traveling with a large group of people then you were screwed (even with a bunch of guys on your side you had a big chance of getting capped because one guy shot one lucky burst and riddled you with so many bullets you'd look like swiss cheese afterwards) Stuff like that really made the game frustrating and made the best parts of Fallout and F2 less good because it took a million deaths to get there.

Well random encounters aren't really dependent on Fallout's combat mechanics you could add random spawning enemies to just about any type of game and you'd probably have the same criticisms. Also Fallout 2 in it's own way is quite linear, there's definitely an intended path for characters (if the player is actually role playing and not trying to do everything) that can pass the Vault City entrance exam, with a slight detour for characters who can enter the city but can't pass the exam and another intended path for characters who can't use the vault computer and yet another for those who can't even get into VC. The game's weakness, or strength depending on your viewpoint, is that you can deviate from the intended path and forge your own route even if it does mean that you might encounter more resistance along the way your character might not be prepared for.

The appeal of ME isn't the combat, just like how the appeal of fallout isn't the combat

Can I ask just what the appeal to you is then? Because out of all the games Bioware have labeled rpgs ME 1&2 have to be the most combat orientated of the lot. Plus western crpgs have to be the third most combat focused games after First/Third person shooters and most strategy games.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

This is totally true. It's a huge problem in Fallout 2, especially as you don't get decent guns until New Reno or so. It's not a problem with the game mechanics, however, but encounter design and game balance.

Since New Reno is totally optional depending on your build at what point are you going there?

 

[Lexx]

If you go Klamath -> Den -> Modoc -> Vault City -> Broken Hills -> New Reno, it's damn easy, imo.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I realize it's a personal issue, But that's all criticism really. Now I don't know the nuts and bolts and numbers underlying fallout, But the difficulty curb was so out of wack. I remember having to save a million times on the way to New Reno because every time I got stopped for a random encounter it was 12 guys with AK-47s and a desire for delicious Sabirah blood and no room to run away like a little girl. Those incidents really stood out to me and made the game really really annoying to finish just because unless you were traveling with a large group of people then you were screwed (even with a bunch of guys on your side you had a big chance of getting capped because one guy shot one lucky burst and riddled you with so many bullets you'd look like swiss cheese afterwards) Stuff like that really made the game frustrating and made the best parts of Fallout and F2 less good because it took a million deaths to get there.

I am not so sure about that. It seems really to be more only about your preference then criticism. Constructive criticism is a different thing entirely. For example if I mention the fact how easily the system of Fallout could be exploited (just ask about gifted builds for the game).

You can hear the complains about random encounters quite often. Well. Those have a purpose though. At first they serve as a way to show you that the wasteland is a hostile world. Regardless if we talk about Radscorpions/Ants which can easily kill you on lower levels and later when you encounter stronger enemies like raider groups with machineguns or the Super-Mutant patrols. Thing is that the game offers you ways to get around it with the outdoorsman skill. Its right there. It is completely possible to get around most combat easily in Fallout. If you chose the right skills and perks. Like the way of diplomacy in combination with outdoorsman for example. Is it the easiest way ? Probably not. But it is possible. The game offers you choices here. Also it is as well rather easy to run away from random encounters. Just run to the closest exit and leave the map.

I admit that for someone who does not know how Fallout works the game can be frustrating. But it is rather easy to build a combat oriented character and winning most fights. When I read your experience and compare it with mine it seems that you did the same mistake I did once I started Fallout. Using the wrong skills. Fallout is much less forgiving then many RPGs today. It requiers at least for the start that you specialice. Either in "making friends" (high spech skills with science etc) or going the way of combat.

 

[Ilosar]

Other than lucky criticals Mass Effect is just the same as Fallout or Dragon Age or the Witcher 2, if you've built your character effectively you'll breeze through but if you've built a suboptimal (for combat) character you'll run into difficulty. That's nothing really to do with turn based vs real time. If you took Mass Effect 2 and made a turn based mod for it with the Unreal Development Kit the drones, barriers and biotic fields would work the same way and still be dependent on your build choices.

Which was my point. The fact that it's real-time (or real-time with pause) doesn't mean you just point, shoot and call it a day. There's still character-building and strategy involved.

And plenty of games have one hit kill weapons that can be just as annoying and probably more common than critical hits.

Well, the thing is most of the time one-hit kills in games are fairly obvious and are meant to be dodged. Think of the snipers in ME1; they could easily 1 or 2 shoot you, but before they fire you could see their painting laser. So you could avoid it. In Fallout I could not avoid that Super Mutant's gatling gun critting and instantly killing me whatever armor I wore. I mean, I imagine there are games with cheap one-hit kills, but as far as I remember Mass Effect has none of them.

Since New Reno is totally optional depending on your build at what point are you going there?

And how are you going to know it is on your first playthrough? You can hear about the city several times, and it seems like a pretty big place, and if there's one thing RPGs have taught us it's that everything is there for a reason and you should do everything you can, so that big city must be there for a reason. Of course, New Reno is actually one giant XP and money farm, but there's no knowing beforehand.

Also it is as well rather easy to run away from random encounters. Just run to the closest exit and leave the map.

Depends. In some of them you start surrounded by gunmen who can easily kill you if you don't have appropriate gear (and even then, crits happen). I know i was rocking advanced combat armor and the Super Mutant patrols around Mariposa Base still took several tries to get past. Friggin mutants.

Anyhow, we're kinda derailling from Mass Effect, don't we?

 

[Lexx]

If it's too hard, you go away and come back later into that area. What's the big deal?

 

[Walpknut]

Because you need to be able to do everything at all times, that increases the immersion man.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Depends. In some of them you start surrounded by gunmen who can easily kill you if you don't have appropriate gear (and even then, crits happen). I know i was rocking advanced combat armor and the Super Mutant patrols around Mariposa Base still took several tries to get past. Friggin mutants.

Anyhow, we're kinda derailling from Mass Effect, don't we?

It is still rather easy to avoid 90% of the combat situations.

I mean hey. In F2 for example it is really easy to get the advanced Power armor if you know how.

The further away you go from your start location the more difficult it is. But well ... Lexx already explained nicely what should be done

 

[Sabirah]

Depends. In some of them you start surrounded by gunmen who can easily kill you if you don't have appropriate gear (and even then, crits happen). I know i was rocking advanced combat armor and the Super Mutant patrols around Mariposa Base still took several tries to get past. Friggin mutants.

Anyhow, we're kinda derailling from Mass Effect, don't we?

It is still rather easy to avoid 90% of the combat situations.

I mean hey. In F2 for example it is really easy to get the advanced Power armor if you know how.

The further away you go from your start location the more difficult it is. But well ... Lexx already explained nicely what should be done

But that's the thing. For a first time player, Fallouts 2 and 1 was a nightmare and I'm sure I wasn't the only one. The only thing that kept me engaged in them was the world an setting was interesting