"My precious" - GFW on fans, industry and media

actually the FPP genre extends as far back as 1976 to the game night driver i believe.

the first game for the microprocessor was done in 1971 i belive, pong was the 2nd.

technically third person/chase cams are the newest form of perspective.
 
Roshambo said:
You know what?

FUCK THAT!

Smile and nod - you'll be ignored. Niceness does NOTHING in an industry where these assholes can simply buy a louder voice in the form of money. That is also how they pay off their morals and any sense of integrity as a developer, too.
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What alternative do you suggest?
Get guns and storm their place and force them to make it our way?
Bitch until they stop listening (if they were at all in the first place)?
Grass roots anti-marketing campaign?

This isn't a unique industry, all industry works by making money.
There are obviously different strategies for making money, but generally more = better.
I don't remember where you stand on this Rosh, but I never did think you were of the mindset that they would make more money for selling the game as something less shiny with less bloom.

They've got the lowest common denominator, why would they need us?
We are playing their game, they're in control, there is a time for tact and a time for fighting, and at this point (and always in this particular instance), tact was the only way to approach this, otherwise we will be blacklisted, and what exactly does that solve? a moral victory?

Nothing. It solves nothing. We just come across as arrogant fucks with a sense of entitlement. While we certainly, as devoted fans, deserve something, businesses like Bethsoft don't work that way. We needed to hedge our bets and play this game very carefully as if it were the fucking cold war. Let's hope we've been successful so far, but odds are that it was a losing battle to begin with.

What do you propose as our next course of action though?
And more importantly, what do we have to gain from our next steps, and what do we have to lose?

Screw 'niceness', we don't need to be 'nice'... but open hostility ultimately works against us more than for us.


*edit*
Don't hurt me Rosh, I'm fragile :(
 
EuphoricOneTriesAgain said:
Holy crap, I love when people bring politics into a discussion in the most idiotic possible way when it is in no way relevant to the discussion in any way, shape or form. Seriously, a lib cannot get 2 sentences out without some inane comment about Bush or "teh evil republicans!!"

"I'm going off on this sick rant...I better throw in how much I hate Bush too. After that, I'm going to go looking for a job because Bush stole my last one!!"

Recession - Bush's fault.
9/11 - Bush's fault.
Katrina - Bush's fault.
Bethesda not making the right Fallout game - Bush's fault. hahahaha this one tops them all. I love it.
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Point being-

(1) Bethesda lies in terms of our expectations, false promises.
(2) Bethesda's approach is to attack criticism of its failures by criticizing those who speak.
(3) Personal attacks are used in lieu of frank honesty and self-criticism.
(4) Money matters more than ethics
(5) destruction is called reinvention.
(6) hype over substance.
(7) Play to the lowest common demonitator.
(8) Lack of transparency and covering up failure.
(9) blacklist those that oppse them
(10) censor internal critics.

That Bethesda is just outside Washington makes me wonder if the same bug has bitten Bethesda's ass as it has the White House.

Oh and if my appraisal of the Bush administration hurts your republican feelings, than maybe you need to rethink your politics. Seriously, Bethesda has fucked up Fallout just about as badly as Bush has fucked up the US.
 
Has there been any form of organised fan protest yet towards Fallout 3?
One the Game Magazine 'experts' can't write down as a 'bunch of angry mad fans who want Fallout 2.5?"
 
welsh said:
Oh and if my appraisal of the Bush administration hurts your republican feelings, than maybe you need to rethink your politics. Seriously, Bethesda has fucked up Fallout just about as badly as Bush has fucked up the US.
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The point was not a single fucking person said a word about Bush or republicans in this thread and it was retarded beyond belief to bring something as complete and utterly irrelevant as that into a videogame discussion thread. It makes you seem like a rambling idiot.

I don't need to rethink my politics at all. They're great. I also reserve discussion of my politics for POLITICAL discussions. Go figure. Maybe that's why people find me intelligent and respect my opinion.
 
welsh said:
Point being-

(1) Bethesda lies in terms of our expectations, false promises.
(2) Bethesda's approach is to attack criticism of its failures by criticizing those who speak.
(3) Personal attacks are used in lieu of frank honesty and self-criticism.
(4) Money matters more than ethics
(5) destruction is called reinvention.
(6) hype over substance.
(7) Play to the lowest common demonitator.
(8) Lack of transparency and covering up failure.
(9) blacklist those that oppse them
(10) censor internal critics.

That Bethesda is just outside Washington makes me wonder if the same bug has bitten Bethesda's ass as it has the White House.

Oh and if my appraisal of the Bush administration hurts your republican feelings, than maybe you need to rethink your politics. Seriously, Bethesda has fucked up Fallout just about as badly as Bush has fucked up the US.
Click to expand...

:clap:

Bethesda seems like the highschool clique "we're so cool" equivalent of a gaming company. Complete with the undeserved sense of accomplishment in all the wrong hyped up areas.

I had to quote you again in my sig Welsh. :salute:
 
The point was not a single fucking person said a word about Bush or republicans in this thread and it was retarded beyond belief to bring something as complete and utterly irrelevant as that into a videogame discussion thread. It makes you seem like a rambling idiot.
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It was a comparison (and a pretty good one at that), you know what that is?

I'd suppose you know, but no-one should touch your cute little Bush and your cute little Bethesda, ain't that right?
By the way, we should wait with Bush too? Wait till we see all he can do?

Maybe that's why people find me intelligent and respect my opinion.
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Not here, though.
Moron!
 
Well, I read the article in Computer Gaming World, NMA featured prominently in it, since this is ground zero in the debate about Fallout 3. :)

I disagree with this idea that somehow Fallout fans are asking for something unreasonable. All we want is game that is a true sequel to Fallout, which retains the key core elements of the game. A post-nuclear RPG with the Fallout style and feel, deep dialog and interaction with NPC's and isometric turn-based (or at least fully pauseable RT) tactical combat. We don't expect the game to be identical in every single way to Fallout 2. We expect there to be improvements in the tactical combat system, perhaps partially destructible environments, a massive upgrade in graphics, etc. But don't turn it into a FPS RPG that you can pause sometimes, the twitch reflexes of the player shouldn't be an issue in Fallout, the combat is supposed to be all about complex tactical choices, not FPS reflex skills.

There was another article in this issue of CGW, about Far Cry 2, which I didn't even know was being worked on until I read the article. As a Far Cry fan, I was so disappointed when I heard Crytek was working on Crysis, instead of the sequel to Far Cry, which everyone assumed would be their next game, so I was very surprised to hear that Ubisoft was making Far Cry 2 in this new article. Then I read with horror in the article that the game isn't really a sequel to Far Cry. There's no continuation of the Far Cry story at all, and Jack Carver, the cool lead character from Far Cry that the player plays as in the game, isn't even going to be in Far Cry 2! Instead now your some mercenary running around blowing away africans in some 3rd world country. All the cool story, with the mysterious science experiments and mutants and all the interesting characters from Far Cry are gone, the only thing left is you still have guns to shoot at mercs you see in the game (whoopee...), everything else, everything that makes Far Cry *be* Far Cry, has been thrown out. This is outrageous!

This is the kind of garbage that fans of games hate, these non-original game making teams trying to rip off the name of a really good and popular game like Far Cry that has many fans, and what's supposed to be a sequel turns into nothing but an attempt to cash in on one of the most recognizable names in FPS games.

What are Ubisoft and game magazines going to claim next, that Far Cry fans are also "nuts" and "unreasonable". Are we also glittering gems of hatred? What, nuts because we want a sequel to one of our favorite games and one of the most prominent FPS games in the last few years to be a *real sequel*?? There is *nothing* unreasonable about that at all.

What's unreasonable is Ubisoft coming along and daring to call the game Far Cry 2 when it is nothing of the sort. It's a completely different game. If they want to make a game like that, fine, but don't call it Far Cry 2, make up your own name, game and story and leave Far Cry 2 for some other company to make (preferably Crytek, when Crysis is finished), so we can have a real sequel.

Far Cry fans want to see what happens next to Jack Carver and his girl that made the narrow escape at the end of Far Cry, there are many unanswered questions in the story. We want to see a continuation of the Far Cry story that we like so much, we want to see what Jack Carver's next adventure is as he tries to find out about the evil forces behind what happened on that strange island. Far Cry fans have been waiting years for the sequel to Far Cry to see what happens next to Jack Carver in the story, and we have every reason to expect Far Cry 2 to be a true sequel and nothing less, not just a name stuck on a box by Ubisoft.

This reminds me a lot of situation with Fallout 3, only it's much worse in case of Far Cry 2. At least an effort is being made to make Fallout 3 look and feel like Fallout 1 and 2, Far Cry 2 is a disgusting abomination, it has nothing to do with Far Cry at all.
 
Crysis is the sequel. FarCry 2 is just a spin off. Much like Age of Decadence and Fallout 3.
 
Hello Dunedain,

Welcome to the forums.

As for what you are walking against, it is something I have been experiencing a long time now; existing licences and franchises being changed from the core up or being reimagined because A) existing developers feel there is need for a fresh direction but using some existing names. B) a new bunch of guys (who sometimes call themselves fans) are put to work with it, and though the classic was great it has to be remade that it has almost no connection with the original.

And this doesn't happen with some of my favorite game franchises such as Fallout, but also with television shows I loved to watch like Star Trek.
I don't know about the rest of the people on this board but I am one of the few people perhaps who truly hates Star Trek Enterprise and believes it should be wiped from 'canon'.

Heh in reimagined TV shows its usually bringing in 'hot' actors and 'actresses' to distract the audience from the questionable stories and rape of original series while in games it is becoming graphics to distract the gamers.


I also have serious doubts about the new Star Trek movie, especially when I heard that the geniuses behind the 'Transformers' movie were writing.
Great, another bunch of 'Die hard' fans who get to work on one of their favorite shows.


Back to the subject

Regarding Far Cry, I remember having a similar conversation like yours while on school.
A couple of people were talking about sequels to games and I told them how I hated it that in most cases when a new development team takes over an existing licence (remember 'most' cases, not all) that they often change it to the point that you might as well put a new name on it to make clear that it is a different name.

I also brought up elements like the mutants and the genetic experiments, and while I added that I knew that some gamers hated it, that it was part of Far Cry, combining realistic elements with science fiction elements.

Well apparently that wasn't really important as long as it is a good shooter.
Well okay than, that is their choice but it does tell me what kind of fans they are, it doesn't matter where the publishers stamps "Far Cry" on as long as it is a somewhat realistic shooter taking place in modern times.


Perhaps it is as one of the Fallout developers said in that interview, let classics rest and try to create something as good as the thing you enjoyed, and not rape and recreate that thing you enjoyed because you think it will improve it.
 
Morbus: As far as I know, Crysis is not a sequel to Far Cry. From what I've read about it, it's not a continuation of the story from Far Cry and Jack Carver is not in it, thus it can't be a sequel to Far Cry. Rather it's a new game that Crytek for whatever reason decided to make instead of Far Cry 2 for the time being. Hopefully Far Cry 3 (the *real* Far Cry 2, a true sequel and story continuation) will be made by Crytek after they are done with Crysis. :)

The Dutch Ghost: I agree completely on Star Trek. In fact, I don't like any of the new series, only the original Star Trek series and the original movies. :) I tried to watch "the next generation" one time, it didn't even feel like Star Trek, I could only stomach a few minutes of it and I turned it off. Haven't watched it since. If you haven't seen the original Star Trek series DVD set yet, I recommend checking it out. It looks fantastic, crystal clear and razor sharp! :)

The thing is Far Cry ended on a note of suspense and unanswered questions in the boat after Jack Carver escaped the island. Far Cry fans obviously want to see what happens next, what adventures Jack Carver, the tough and cool hero of the game, and his girlfriend get into next as they try to find out who is behind all of the strange experiments happening on the island. This is what a sequel will tell us. It will give us a chance to find out the answers to these questions, to further explore the mystery of the interesting Far Cry story. :)

The least Crytek could have done was make an expansion pack for Far Cry that allowed the fans to play more of the game and find out more about the story. If Ubisoft isn't going to make the real sequel to Far Cry, then Crytek should after they finish with Crysis. Call it Far Cry 3, which will be the true direct story continuation sequel to Far Cry. :)
 
Dunedain: your description of Far Cry 2 being not a true sequal cannot be more accurate. I read the previews and I have to agree. Far Cry 2 resembles nothing like the original.

Crysis cannot be considered a sequal to Far Cry too, since it left out many defining points to make it even 'sequal'-ly.

I believe old beth is blinded by two things, the need and urge to make money, and only way to do that is to appeal to their huge TES fan base, and to do that they have to make a game that appeals to their 'console-mentality' liking. And the other thing they are blinded by their enourmous ego, their belief that they have to 'right' idea on the game, their belief that they are on the right track to pleasing their 'fans'.

These two will combine and will definately mutate our beloved Fallout into something that is montrous or... goulish.

I have been lurking for nearly 5 years before I join in a few months ago. And in my lurking days, I am convinced that Fallout fans are the most informed and intelligent fans on the planet. But a series of unfortunate events caused fans to be bitter and resentful, for example, the dissaster of F:POS, the firing of Black Isle, the cancelation of the nearly completed Van Buren, the dissintergration of Interplay, the sale of the Fallout license to old Beth, and the treatment showned by old Beth to fans. These events made us the mose bitter and angriest fans on the planets.

So, I don't care if I am golum ranting in front of the screen, or called glittering gem of hatred, or shunned in beth's forum, we deserve to rant and probably we won't stop. Old beth still have a chance to sit down and listen if they want to, but I don't see that happening, seeing the debacle with their Star Trek game(I feel for you Trekkies).

The article is well written, but with the intention to be fair, and because of his intention to be fair, the truth gets muddled and lost in the haze of ambiguity. Therefore, base on the article we become rapid mouth foaming fans angry at the bumbling lovable old beth who are just trying to do their own thing. It is not easy to be fair, it is unlikable to be truthful in journalism either, the compromise will be make truth the casualty.

However, I like to iterate that no doubt F3 will be a good game, just not a true Fallout sequal.
 
Dunedain: your description of Far Cry 2 being not a true sequal cannot be more accurate. I read the previews and I have to agree. Far Cry 2 resembles nothing like the original.
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I don't know about that. At least if you buy the brand shooter, you're not gonna burn off your nuts when your draw drops, the cig falls out and sets fire to your trousers, all because the brand shooter you just bought opens up with a complex character generation screen, long conversations with tough moral decisions, and turnbased tactical combat from a third person perspective.

Hell, compared to what Bethsoft's doing to Fallout, even getting X4: Splitting Up Again is more of a Far Cry sequel than Fallout 3 is a Fallout sequel. Because at least it has some firstperson shooting. From a cockpit, sure, and using thrusters and shit, but hey.. there's at least some basic similarities. No such luck for Fallout. 'Cept maybe some of the chairs will look a bit like they did in Fallouts of old. Of course, it'll be hard to actually make that comparison, because even the normals on the seats have more pixel information than an entire Fallout1/2 chair had. But the Dev says so, so it's gotta be truthiness, yeh?

Sorry 'bout the swearing, but really.

And it's not even that I dislike TES games. I do like them. They're like the ultimate junkfood of the cRPG world. Forgettable plots that can be summed up in 2-3 paragraphs, simplistic gameplay that's easy to learn AND master, all inside ten minutes or so. And more repetition than you can shake all the sticks of the world at. It's like minesweeper, with hella cool graphics and slightly more variation.

It's just nothing remotely like the Fallout games. Diablo has more in common with PlaneScape: Torment than this [censored]!

And no, I'm not royally pissed because Bethesda decided to destroy Fallout 3. I'm royally pissed off because if it's a success, and the sheer amount of hype guarantees it will be, this means there'll never ever be another AAA Fallout experience. There'll just be more sodding Morrowind.

Ack...

Might be jinxing myself saying this, but at lest I hope Bethsoft never ever picks up the rights to any of the Infinity Engine games. I swear I'm gonna send them week old feces if they do.
 
EuphoricOneTriesAgain said:
welsh said:
Oh and if my appraisal of the Bush administration hurts your republican feelings, than maybe you need to rethink your politics. Seriously, Bethesda has fucked up Fallout just about as badly as Bush has fucked up the US.
Click to expand...

The point was not a single fucking person said a word about Bush or republicans in this thread and it was retarded beyond belief to bring something as complete and utterly irrelevant as that into a videogame discussion thread. It makes you seem like a rambling idiot.

I don't need to rethink my politics at all. They're great. I also reserve discussion of my politics for POLITICAL discussions. Go figure. Maybe that's why people find me intelligent and respect my opinion.
Click to expand...

Actually, it seems like a lot of Brits and US citizens could use with a constant reminder of the fucked state of their counties and what little real freedom they have left in light of McCarthyism Jr. After all, they're the ones often oblivious to the hype after they've been shit on repeatedly by game publishers, often the same asswipes over and over, vote more regularly for American Idol than presidential elections (hey, Cthulhu can win!), and you expect them to be on the ball enough to understand the fucked state of their country?!

Haha! That's given me quite a chuckle. :D

welsh said:
Point being-

(1) Bethesda lies in terms of our expectations, false promises.
(2) Bethesda's approach is to attack criticism of its failures by criticizing those who speak.
(3) Personal attacks are used in lieu of frank honesty and self-criticism.
(4) Money matters more than ethics
(5) destruction is called reinvention.
(6) hype over substance.
(7) Play to the lowest common demonitator.
(8) Lack of transparency and covering up failure.
(9) blacklist those that oppse them
(10) censor internal critics.

That Bethesda is just outside Washington makes me wonder if the same bug has bitten Bethesda's ass as it has the White House.

Oh and if my appraisal of the Bush administration hurts your republican feelings, than maybe you need to rethink your politics. Seriously, Bethesda has fucked up Fallout just about as badly as Bush has fucked up the US.
Click to expand...

The only difference between the Bush administration and Bethesda would be that people were dumb enough to elect Bush into office. Both make a tidy profit off of stupid people with short memories.

As for how Bethesda should be treated? Slam them with the rest of the cheap con men in this world. Let their disgraces be aired out in public for everyone to see.

Word of mouth is THE most powerful force in this industry. If Bethesda wants to try their own propaganda against us, we can easily take their Idiot Squad apart, and have repeatedly been doing so since 2004. Interplay has crumbled under their own incompetence brought to light, the same may be done for others. The intelligent understand. The cattle moo. The media whores lick Bethesda's asshole and grin for more.

Fallout fans are fucked for a proper sequel, again, but at least we can keep intelligent people from making the mistake of expecting a decent sequel from this shit sandwich.
 
Hello Roshambo,

Do you think it is possible for us fans to influence the sales to such a point that its not profitable for Bethesda?

I am not trying to get people unemployed or create the idea of 'old fashioned players whose anger of the use of a franchise got the latest 'incarnation' to fail to the point it got a company to go bankrupt" (well Bethesda probably still has a lot in reserve to try some other project), but I really dislike what Fallout is being turned into and how the fans are treated who really kept the franchise alive.

And I do feel that we have the right to make that dissatisfaction heard without being called people who live seven years back in time by people who call themselves professional journalists or developers.
 
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