OXM article excerpts

[Brother None]

You know, every time someone dares suggest that the limits of 1996 technology may have shaped the development of Fallout in any form or fraction there's a shitstorm of righteous indignation

Straw man. We don't generally claim that, we claim it's a ridiculous argument to make when it comes to 1st person view or turned based, which were design decisions not directly determined (but possibly influenced) by technological or financial limitations. That doesn't mean that's true of everything in Fallout.

Also - isn't it interesting how important a role good graphics seemed to play in Fallout's design?

Well, du-freaking-huh, it's a video game, I never heard a designer say "yeah, I intentionally made my video game look shitty, it's good design". Everyone wants a video game to look as good as possible. Hell, we've always wanted Fallout 3 to look as good as it can, as long as it doesn't take priority over other design elements.

What I'm getting at is if the same designers back in 1996 had access to and backgrounds in the CGI field of today the look of Fallout's characters probably have been dramatically different.

Why? Don't tell me you honestly believe this shit looks better than this.

I mean, outside of talking heads technology has moved light years ahead. And it's true modern technology can make for less static heads (though it doesn't always). But better looking? Why won't people recognize faces in games like Oblivion looks like utter shit. Even in games praised for Graphics - like BioShock - faces don't look better than Fallout's talking heads.

Regardless, the complaint people were making here is that Bethesda's face design looks generic and the NPCs we've seen all look alike. You haven't addressed that issue in any way, instead replying to some fictional argument that no one really made.

 

[Bodybag]

Straw man.

No! stop crying strawman wolf BN, you weaken the word when you do that. I was making a cheeky generaliziation, not a specific accusation.

Well, du-freaking-huh, it's a video game, I never heard a designer say "yeah, I intentionally made my video game look shitty, it's good design".

I said pretty much the same thing in the chunk of text you omitted. Sloppy! And there's a significant number of people here (not naming names, but you know who you are) jihading against immershunz yet they lack definitive proof that F3's graphics are taking priority over other design elements in a way that's out of sync with F1's design goals, which have been established to include top-flight graphics. That wasn't even the point, that was an aside, MYAN.

Why? Don't tell me you honestly believe this shit looks better than this.

I 100% prefer the clay-scanned overseer head to the "STOP HOTLINKING IMAGES, PAL!" disclaimer.

I mean, outside of talking heads technology has moved light years ahead. And it's true modern technology can make for less static heads (though it doesn't always). But better looking? Why won't people recognize faces in games like Oblivion looks like utter shit. Even in games praised for Graphics - like BioShock - faces don't look better than Fallout's talking heads.

Is there some lost island of people who thought Oblivion's faces looked good? Because I haven't been there. HL2's "talking heads" are beyond peer, though.

Regardless, the complaint people were making here is that Bethesda's face design looks generic and the NPCs we've seen all look alike. You haven't addressed that issue in any way, instead replying to some fictional argument that no one really made.

That's because you're high. I was responding to Morbus who suggested that Bethesda's pursuit of realism lies at the center of the problem, and that Fallout's characters should not be realistic. I even quoted it, BN.

If you want me to address the apparent sameness of the NPCs, then here goes: I'm against it.

 

[Brother None]

I was making a cheeky generaliziation, not a specific accusation.

Still a straw man.

The problem isn't me, the problem is the aptness of internet people to use a number of logical fallacies, including straw men.

And there's a significant number of people here (not naming names, but you know who you are) jihading against immershunz

Immersion as a cheap buzzword just means first person view and has nothing to do with graphical quality, especially not if you define graphic quality not just as high quality but also as good design (the latter is something Oblivion lacks, for instance).

Just because Sorrow is arguing against graphics as some kind of retard doesn't mean that's a majority opinion.

yet they lack definitive proof that F3's graphics are taking priority over other design elements in a way that's out of sync with F1's design goals, which have been established to include top-flight graphics.

Definitive proof? Definitive? What the hell? What could be definitive proof on that except a note from Todd Howard to the staff saying "oh yeah, graphics are more important than anything else, muhahahaah".

That's an idiotic shift of the proof of burden. We don't need to prove Fallout 3's graphics are taking priority over other design elements, we can simply say:

- Graphics are being highlighted conspicuously often in previews and interviews
- Oblivion was an empty game that was mostly about graphics

The proof will be in the pudding. We won't really know what takes priority until the game is out. We can suspect, sure. But prove? That's impossible, just like it's impossible to prove it's not so. Both are non-arguments.

I 100% prefer the clay-scanned overseer head to the "STOP HOTLINKING IMAGES, PAL!" disclaimer.

Whoops, I mean this shitugly bugger.

I was responding to Morbus who suggested that Bethesda's pursuit of realism lies at the center of the problem, and that Fallout's characters should not be realistic. I even quoted it, BN.

I know you did, but if you look at the context you'll see Morbus was in fact replying to another point and offering an explanation for that. I don't know how serious he was, but either way Morbus' main conclusion was also: "these faces look too alike". You can disagree with his conclusion on why, but you're not actually offering any counter-argument to what people are *actually* talking about.

If you want me to address the apparent sameness of the NPCs, then here goes: I'm against it.

Huzzah. Next time, then, please don't waste rants on stuff no one really cares about.

I mean, Morbus' post here is pretty much the first one I've seen on the transfer from cartooney to realistic human faces (super-mutants are another matter). There's a reason for that, it's because no one cares.

 

[Simeon]

Straw man.

And there's a significant number of people here (not naming names, but you know who you are) jihading against immershunz yet they lack definitive proof that F3's graphics are taking priority over other design elements in a way that's out of sync with F1's design goals, which have been established to include top-flight graphics..

Not everyone on BS forums who dislikes fallout 3 represents NMA.

 

[Bodybag]

Immersion as a cheap buzzword just means first person view and has nothing to do with graphical quality, especially not if you define graphic quality not just as high quality but also as good design (the latter is something Oblivion lacks, for instance).

Immersion has many interpretations, it's just a shame you insist on going with a negative connotation. I always read it as meaning "drawing the player into the gameword" and figured there were several ways for a game to do this outside of visual stimuli.

We don't need to prove...

Last time I had a conversation that went this way I talked the guy to into suicide.

- Graphics are being highlighted conspicuously often in previews and interviews

That's true of basically any video game, dude. Didn't we just both say the same thing on this very subject 2 posts ago? Also, conspicuously often? Like more often than the standard number of screenshots per article, or something even more sinister? I haven't heard one single blurb about graphics tech in the game, unlike say the development of Crysis.

-Oblivion was an empty game that was mostly about graphics

You just keep baiting me into defending Oblivion. Well I won't do it, mister! I will say it was far from an empty game, just that it was full of stuff I wasn't particularly into.

Huzzah. Next time, then, please don't waste rants on stuff no one really cares about.

I mean, Morbus' post here is pretty much the first one I've seen on the transfer from cartooney to realistic human faces (super-mutants are another matter). There's a reason for that, it's because no one cares.

He cared, apparently, and I felt like responding. And this is what, your second reply directly to me on the subject? If you don't want to discuss it, I certainly can't force you

 

[Brother None]

Immersion has many interpretations, it's just a shame you insist on going with a negative connotation. I always read it as meaning "drawing the player into the gameword" and figured there were several ways for a game to do this outside of visual stimuli.

So do I. But I'm not the one saying "first person is the best way to achieve that"

First person is certainly the best way to achieve visceral immersion. But imaginative immersion?

Last time I had a conversation that went this way I talked the guy to into suicide.

Well, uh, way to go in making a guy kill himself, I guess. I bet yo momma be real proud, or something?

That's true of basically any video game, dude.

No it isn't. Page through the old Fallout 1 coverage and remarks from developers. Graphics are discussed, but they're not the primary point of discussion. No more than they are for - say - Spore.

Like more often than the standard number of screenshots per article, or something even more sinister? I haven't heard one single blurb about graphics tech in the game, unlike say the development of Crysis.

Try sitting through the demo. They chat your ears off about the parallax occlusion mapping, improved faces and great world design.

Oh, and combat.

Imaginative design? Innovative design? Storytelling? Dialogue? Not so much.

You just keep baiting me into defending Oblivion.

Yeah, or maybe I said it because it's the best reference material for Bethesda's design? Doi?

And this is what, your second reply directly to me on the subject?

Actually, we haven't really been discussing the points you made at all. They're not interesting.

 

[Bodybag]

Straw man.

And there's a significant number of people here (not naming names, but you know who you are) jihading against immershunz yet they lack definitive proof that F3's graphics are taking priority over other design elements in a way that's out of sync with F1's design goals, which have been established to include top-flight graphics..

Not everyone on BS forums who dislikes fallout 3 represents NMA.

See, BN? This is a good example of a strawman. When did I ever mention the BS forums? When did I ever address NMA as a singular entity? WHEN?

Oh wait, I see you're too busy telling me my posts suck

So do I. But I'm not the one saying "first person is the best way to achieve that"

It sounded like you were denouncing the word altogether as it's been coopted by evil marketers or something. Together, we can take it back!

First person is certainly the best way to achieve visceral immersion. But imaginative immersion?

Dude, you just said visceral. That's a red flagged word even in the games industry. Speak not into the fire! Also "imaginative immersion?" Something tells me you're talking about the text description window, because my St. Jude pendant just started glowing.

Well, uh, way to go in making a guy kill himself, I guess. I bet yo momma be real proud, or something?

That guy was the Master, noob. Also, why the shift into ebonics?

Yeah, or maybe I said it because it's the best reference material for Bethesda's design? Doi?

Are you so angry that you're comepletely humourless?

Actually, we haven't really been discussing the points you made at all. They're not interesting.

Except the part where you quoted them and responded directly, you mean. I'll try to punch them up with faux outrage over that supermutant getting his leg blown off or something, since that's a hotter topic.

 

[Brother None]

Since none of those replies contained any actual points, I guess we're done?

This was by far one of the best conversations I've had on the internet, ever

PS: and I don't know what Simeon was talking about either

 

[Simeon]

Straw man.

And there's a significant number of people ****here**** (not naming names, but you know who you are) jihading against immershunz yet they lack definitive proof that F3's graphics are taking priority over other design elements in a way that's out of sync with F1's design goals, which have been established to include top-flight graphics..

Not everyone on BS forums who dislikes fallout 3 represents NMA.

See, BN? This is a good example of a strawman. When did I ever mention the BS forums? When did I ever address NMA as a singular entity? WHEN?

I swear, are you fucking retarded or something?

First, for it to be a strawman, I'd have to be arguing something.
You referred to people in your post that are on NMA, and treat them as if they represent the site.
Since no one in this thread has actually DONE what you said, you had to be talking about the other forums. See? not that hard.

 

[Brother None]

That's not true, Simeon. I wouldn't call it "jihading", but we have plenty of people that hate the term immersion, and at least one local idiot that even hates good graphics

 

[Simeon]

Well I hate immersion just as much as the next guy, but he makes it sound like people are doing it for no reason, in ignorance of the fact that graphics are their top priority as previously stated.

I don't really wanna argue about what he said though, so I'll shelve my disdain of people like that coming here and agitating and go constantly refresh at the starcraft forums for the zerg announcement T_T

 

[Paladin Solo]

immersion

Oblivion was immersive because you could buy a house and sit in it forever. Fallout wasn't immersive because you had this objective you could've approached and completed in numerous ways, but you still had that objective and couldn't just quit and go hunt <s>mudcrabs</s>pigrats while on crawl into dungeon 67322 and enjoy all the super-realistic bloom. And let's not forget, first-person is the wave of the future, it's immershun, it's immershun, shut up the game is immershun, go play pong you nub, we're going to immersive ourselves into the future. You can't imagine immershun, you have to see it for yourselves. Now I'm going to go do the ultimate immershun and LARP with my Dunmer sex-slave while figuring out how I will declare myself God-Emperor of all Nirn.

So wait, how does wildly claiming a complaint about stupid immersive ideas is calling a jihad against all mankind's greatest inventions ever helping us further discuss the topic? Oh wait, it doesn't. Well then allow me to up my post-count as well while I discuss this, pretending that my thoughts matters more to you than your own pulse.

I'm sure I would've liked the idea of Fallout 3 if it didn't ignore everything that is already well-known for being, y'know, Fallout, just because a bunch of self-important guys in an office thinks they have the God-given right to rape anything they can cash-in on because it's what Jesus would do- and Jesus doesn't kill children, but he drinks plenty of toilet water in his Vaultboy (though I suppose it's now Pipboy) flask while using his 9mm to send the mutant menace back-flipping on his head. Realistic immersion ftw. I'm sure I would be more optimistic about Fallout 3 if Oblivion didn't turn out to be a hunk of crap that was peddled with some of the best lies in the gaming industry. I'm sure if Bethesda's dick wasn't so massive, I wouldn't have the penis envy to call for a jihad against anything that was immersive ever, because only Bethesda is immersive and Bethesda is the enemy of all life ever because life isn't immersive.

 

[Bodybag]

Oh sure, just tell me what I wanna hear.

 

[Paladin Solo]

There is no conspiracy! I will hear no more insinuations about the Bethesda developers! Nothing bad happened!

 

[Jiggly McNerdington]

I shall now take this opportunity to say nice signature Brother None. Knew I liked Obama for a reason.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Imagine the graphics quality of a legitimate Fallout sequel (isometric and turn-based) made with 2008 technology. That would be something to see. Done correctly, that game would be more immersive than FO1 and FO2, both of which remain more immersive than almost all myopic first-person games, even contemporary ones.

Human beings have necks! Who knew?

P.S.

People often register on the NMA boards and immediately (within mere days of joining!) begin posting arguments than have already been countered or refuted or annihilated thousands of times ad nauseam. It would display wisdom for such individuals to read more and post less, at least for the first month or two.

I point this out with the best of intentions, without malice or condemnation.

 

[Lexx]

Someone saw this already?

 

[Jesterka]

Is this really a problem that should be talked over?

 

[Lexx]

Don't know. I saw this a couple of days ago and wasn't sure about posting it or not.

 

[Wooz]

Add a point to the "Generic" factor.