Crni Vuk said:
So, again, why do we need to have this 'huge effect' on the modern society? For what?
Planetary Resources
- Thread starter Atomkilla
- Start date
So, again, why do we need to have this 'huge effect' on the modern society? For what?
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
for the US, less than 5% of all workers "work" in agriculture.
before the 1800s, it was closer to 50%.
plus consider what would have happened to agriculture if the wheelbarrow had been used in farming?
yes, it was used and being used in china and even extended places of europe 2k years ago, but it was used as a litter or construction.
not for farming. and due to their fixed hard wheels vs the rubber tires we use today, that may explain why they were never made very large.
before the 1800s, it was closer to 50%.
plus consider what would have happened to agriculture if the wheelbarrow had been used in farming?
yes, it was used and being used in china and even extended places of europe 2k years ago, but it was used as a litter or construction.
not for farming. and due to their fixed hard wheels vs the rubber tires we use today, that may explain why they were never made very large.
thats a different question. They will find solutions for many products which we make out of oil today. I am sure. I mean they already found ways how to make plastic out of wood, somehow.Sub-Human said:
Crni Vuk said:
I'm sure too. And it's not a different question - why do we need to abandon oil now, not then? If survival is your main concern, I find it hard to believe you're using this PC to chat away on forums. It's not imperative to your existence, is it?
uhm, do I have to explain you why its good to breath as well? Dont be so damn obtuse.
better sooner then latter I would say. As long the alternative is better.
better sooner then latter I would say. As long the alternative is better.
donperkan
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
I'm sure we'll find a way to fuck up the alternative as well.
donperkan said:
We would run for it, head-dive into disaster. It's what we do best!
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
the reason for all these deep wells and ocean wells and people pushing for like the ANWAR and such....
because we are running out.
you honestly think they did the BP deepwater well for the hell of it or the technological challenge?
we know where there is oil, and it is constantly getting harder to find more.
the global demand is going up, and supply is not going up to match it.
waiting till the last minute will cause severe issues for finding a replacement.
unfortunately that seems the only option.
because we are running out.
you honestly think they did the BP deepwater well for the hell of it or the technological challenge?
we know where there is oil, and it is constantly getting harder to find more.
the global demand is going up, and supply is not going up to match it.
waiting till the last minute will cause severe issues for finding a replacement.
unfortunately that seems the only option.
TheWesDude said:
Don't over estimate collective behaviour. Psychology/instincts have a LOT to do with this. We are gatherers. Don't brush that off as "primitive" something we have grown out of.
There is an interesting experiment that one can try with a collective, that is, a cooperation between individuals (it works on children and adults alike)
Let's say you have four people around a table, and you give them slightly these slightly ambigious rules - as in - you don't spoon-feed them the premise, but you let them know that:
They must gather candies off a pile from the centre of the table.
For each candy they gather, they may exchange the candy for 1 dollar.
But! Let them know that during Round 2, they will each be granted TWO dollars for each candy.
Then give them the all clear, to gather candies.
What will typically happen is - at least one of them will begin gathering candies before any sort of planning, cooperation, can be done between the contestants. In the real world, this is often what happens, nations will act on their own, without the strict, controlled and _ideal_ cooperation with neighbors.
As soon as everyone else see one gathering like crazy, they all jump in, and before you know it - all candies have been gathered, and there will be no Round 2.
In order to reach Round 2, they would have to agree to _not_ gather candies during Round 1.
For this to happen, the group - as a collective - must quickly stop and control themselves, loudly "WHOA! Everyone hold it!!!"
This is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a collective of individuals.
It's no different on a global basis. Most of what we do, as nations and collectives, we do out of an instinctive urge to do it. We gather and gather, even if we end up throwing a lot of it away (such as food), we always seek to maximize our yield, wether we need it or not - and we will typically gather untill the last piece - despite knowing well of the concequences.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
which is exactly the problem.
which is why we are in the economic and social situations we are in.
and why there wont be a real solution until all the "candy" is gone.
hell, look at car sales over the past decade in the US. this past decade has seen the rise of the popularity of the whole "climate change" or "global warming" debate.
despite people and groups trying to advocate restraint and conservation, trucks and SUVs remain high sellers.
yes it has seen the increase in "hybrids" or "alternate fuel cars" their sales leave a lot to be desired. lets ignore that they typically have larger "carbon footprint" than standard cars due to multiple engines/battery banks.
as a collective, we are not attempting to conserve or noticeably reduce our fossil fuel use.
i am starting to believe that eruope may have it right. start imposing huge taxes based on fuel efficiency of the vehicles people choose to use. hit people where it hurts, their pocket book. that seems to be the only thing people understand.
which is why we are in the economic and social situations we are in.
and why there wont be a real solution until all the "candy" is gone.
hell, look at car sales over the past decade in the US. this past decade has seen the rise of the popularity of the whole "climate change" or "global warming" debate.
despite people and groups trying to advocate restraint and conservation, trucks and SUVs remain high sellers.
yes it has seen the increase in "hybrids" or "alternate fuel cars" their sales leave a lot to be desired. lets ignore that they typically have larger "carbon footprint" than standard cars due to multiple engines/battery banks.
as a collective, we are not attempting to conserve or noticeably reduce our fossil fuel use.
i am starting to believe that eruope may have it right. start imposing huge taxes based on fuel efficiency of the vehicles people choose to use. hit people where it hurts, their pocket book. that seems to be the only thing people understand.
TheWesDude said:
Yes.
Market liberalism has done its best to make us forget why we need governments in the first place. It's not there to rule for the sake of ruling, but to implement survival measures for the collective.
when it comes to the environment though, cars are the last of our problems. Their actually effect on the environment is rather small compared to the many other sources of pollution.
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
Environmentalists Should Give Up Meat: Cows Worse than Cars for Global Warming
“Now should be environmental vegetarianism’s big moment. Global warming is the single biggest threat to the health of the planet, and meat consumption plays a bigger role in greenhouse gas emissions than even many environmentalists realize.” – Ben Adler
Considering the fact that more and more hybrid cars start to show up, more efficient engines, and as well cars with alternatives (even though in very low numbers, but still), its not like cars are the biggest threat anymore. I never claimed they do no harm mind you. I just say there are much worse sources of pollution then cars. For example coal mining and burning in China which is THE main source for their pollution. And then you have the heavy industry all around the world, from mining uranium in Africa (which is doing huge damage to their environment) to the tar sand raffineries in Canada.
Cars are usually constantly upgraded with new models and see much more changes in a shorter time frame then for example coal plants which are usualy in service for at least 30 years if not more before they see really any changes.
For example, if tomorrow Germany would replace all their existing coal plants with new ones they would already meet their goals in CO2 reduction.
Not to mention, there might be even bigger issues on the horizon then CO2 pollution. Ever heard about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch? And that the ocean is one of our main sources for food? We have yet not even thought about serious plans how to "clean" this plastic patch.
Again. I never said CO2 or cars or what ever are not a problem. But they are only ONE of MANY problems. Strange enough, there is a high focus on Cars and CO2, yet there are many issues which are just as worse if not in some cases even worse, yet no one really tries to find a serious solution for it.
- I dont claim that anything I say HAS to be true. But I am trying to educate my self here as good as I can and hands down. No one here is a professional. What we read could be just as right like how it could be wrong. Anyway. I love this comment.
"Until the connection between CO2 emissions, global warming, and our diet is accepted, you can be sure that people will be rolling through the drive-thru for Big Mac, in the biodiesel or hybrid, feeling like they’re really making a difference…
Planetsave"
Environmentalists Should Give Up Meat: Cows Worse than Cars for Global Warming
“Now should be environmental vegetarianism’s big moment. Global warming is the single biggest threat to the health of the planet, and meat consumption plays a bigger role in greenhouse gas emissions than even many environmentalists realize.” – Ben Adler
Considering the fact that more and more hybrid cars start to show up, more efficient engines, and as well cars with alternatives (even though in very low numbers, but still), its not like cars are the biggest threat anymore. I never claimed they do no harm mind you. I just say there are much worse sources of pollution then cars. For example coal mining and burning in China which is THE main source for their pollution. And then you have the heavy industry all around the world, from mining uranium in Africa (which is doing huge damage to their environment) to the tar sand raffineries in Canada.
Cars are usually constantly upgraded with new models and see much more changes in a shorter time frame then for example coal plants which are usualy in service for at least 30 years if not more before they see really any changes.
For example, if tomorrow Germany would replace all their existing coal plants with new ones they would already meet their goals in CO2 reduction.
Not to mention, there might be even bigger issues on the horizon then CO2 pollution. Ever heard about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch? And that the ocean is one of our main sources for food? We have yet not even thought about serious plans how to "clean" this plastic patch.
Again. I never said CO2 or cars or what ever are not a problem. But they are only ONE of MANY problems. Strange enough, there is a high focus on Cars and CO2, yet there are many issues which are just as worse if not in some cases even worse, yet no one really tries to find a serious solution for it.
- I dont claim that anything I say HAS to be true. But I am trying to educate my self here as good as I can and hands down. No one here is a professional. What we read could be just as right like how it could be wrong. Anyway. I love this comment.
"Until the connection between CO2 emissions, global warming, and our diet is accepted, you can be sure that people will be rolling through the drive-thru for Big Mac, in the biodiesel or hybrid, feeling like they’re really making a difference…
Planetsave"
Crni Vuk said:
That doesn't mean that cars are the last of our problems. Industries hurt Earth, but so do the hundreds of millions of cars out there. Have you ever been to a city? Can you tell the difference between, say, 25 Celsius there and 25 Celsius in a village far away from a highway?
Crni Vuk said:
The media will always find something that's worse than the previous disaster etc. 'Cause it sells. Fear sells.
I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow some geezer writes an article stating that wearing socks is worse for the environment than driving an SUV. And I wouldn't be surprised if he actually manages to convince some homo sapiens of the validity of his statement.
Sustainability is a matter of numbercrunching and if a researcher crunches enough numbers and data, he can no doubt state that this or that is worse than driving a car.
This does not mean that cars are no longer a problem.
donperkan
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Crni when comparing greenhouse gases and their sources narrowing your focus only on cars as a source of carbon dioxide deserves a kick in the nuts.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
cyrni, we were talking about scarcity of oil, thats why i brought up cars.
im pretty sure cars/vehicles use up a LOT of gas/oil every year in the US.
plus hybrid cars have a larger "carbon footprint" vs normal cars because they have to build 2 engines, or if its electric cars those battery banks suck up a lot of carbon to manufacture too.
im pretty sure cars/vehicles use up a LOT of gas/oil every year in the US.
plus hybrid cars have a larger "carbon footprint" vs normal cars because they have to build 2 engines, or if its electric cars those battery banks suck up a lot of carbon to manufacture too.
No clue how accurate this is, particularly as I am not so sure about the whole global-warning thing - though its pretty clear that we do damage the environment one way or another.
link
Cars, are just one of the sources. But as how I thought, industry and energy sector taking up the largest part of it which is rather obvious considering how much old technology is still in use here.
link
Cars, are just one of the sources. But as how I thought, industry and energy sector taking up the largest part of it which is rather obvious considering how much old technology is still in use here.
Looking at that chart makes me think humans are fucked, we have 0% chance of surviving, living the way we currently live. Take me back to the year 1 please.
