Lol, Northern Alliance are already making moves in Afghanistan. By "making moves", I mean, moving through a street on motorcycles, with the 1992 islamic state flag
Political Spergatory or How I Learned To Love /pol
- Thread starter SquidWard
- Start date
What this whole mess with Afghanistan also shows is the sher level of incompetence that we're seeing with our politicans today. I mean already 20 years ago I expected the Taliban to take over the moment NATO troops leave the country. But that it happend literaly in just a few weeks? Hell even when the Soviets left the country it took more time for the radical ismalists to take over. But everything about Afghanistan was just ... bonkers. All the money, education, resources and of course lives. It's like it did absolutely nothing at all. And I wonder now that we've seen those images of the people trying to escape in such chaos. What the fuck have those politicans done in the last years and months? They couldn't even get the bare minimum done it seems.
I hate being a "look up [insert]"-kinda guy, but go wiki "ghost soldiers"
Apparently, an *unknown number* I've seen one estimate of 40 000 troops, are simply not real people, they are salaries funneled to private accounts, sheer corruption.
So - one reason for the insanely swift collapse is that a lot of places theoretically defended by any number of troops, were defended by maybe half that number - or none, depending on how they were *really* distributed.
Another reason is morale, obviously - are they seriously expected to *fight tooth and nail*? Fight to the death? What for? They may be a bit cray-cray, sure - but those Talibans are fellow Afghans coming for them - OFFERING them a way out, even!
We're not talking die-hard rebels here, but just army recruits. So - yes - the VAST BULK of the standing Afghan army will surrender, desert or outright defect. We all just saw how quickly it can go...
Apparently, an *unknown number* I've seen one estimate of 40 000 troops, are simply not real people, they are salaries funneled to private accounts, sheer corruption.
So - one reason for the insanely swift collapse is that a lot of places theoretically defended by any number of troops, were defended by maybe half that number - or none, depending on how they were *really* distributed.
Another reason is morale, obviously - are they seriously expected to *fight tooth and nail*? Fight to the death? What for? They may be a bit cray-cray, sure - but those Talibans are fellow Afghans coming for them - OFFERING them a way out, even!
We're not talking die-hard rebels here, but just army recruits. So - yes - the VAST BULK of the standing Afghan army will surrender, desert or outright defect. We all just saw how quickly it can go...
TheGM
The voice of reason
Well when the Taliban took over the first time they had to make sure to kill all the Mujahadeen guys first, that took a while.
Maybe we should have really only armed the women in Afghanistan and trained them.
Morgan_
Duckerz
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I have not bothered to check how true these are, you're welcome.
Our intel suggested that we had way more time to get out than we did hence the shitstorm we're seeing now. Kinda scary that they could have been so off to this degree. Apparently a lot of the equipment was Afghan army so they couldn't take some of it as a result? Didn't expect the Afghan army to surrender as they did.
If they can scrape together more than 10 dudes capable of flying those helicopters I'd be impressed. Fun stuff though! And, yeah, sure, I can see them melting a plastic ID onto someone's chest - like, that's just quirky enough to be something thought of on the spot. I bet it neither burned nor melted very well, so they went "fuck it" and got the big scimitar.
Morgan_
Duckerz
I would sell most of it if I were them. Complex operation and maintenance especially will be insanely hard. I'd assume replacement parts are difficult to come by.
Not Afghanistan but still funny.
Not Afghanistan but still funny.
Well. I guess the US intelligence knows more about their own population than potential/current enemies ...
*Edit
But I am not sure about all the "No warning signs!" thingy. Like here in Germany they released informations where the German Embassy in Kabul was issuing warnings like months ago that things might get pretty ugly soon. But our foreign minister apparantly simply ignored them. Which will get him in to trouble now.
My feelings here are, there have been warnings from the "grunts" and the people on the front probably for years. But no one really cared. It was not something anyone simply liked to hear. I mean take a look at the so called Afghanistan Papers. It wouldn't surprise me if there was simply damn huge amount of denial and wishfull thinking on the side of those that have been in charge. Be it in the oval office or the Pentagon. A lot of people probably just threw their heads in the sand over it. Till it all collapsed.
I am sure as time goes by we will hear more and more stuff coming out and seeing people talk which actually send out warnings a long time ago that things will implode. But that it was simply not something anyone wanted to really hear. Kinda like Vietnam. The Higher ups thought "We are winning the war!" but everyone on the ground knew that was bullshit.
Yeah I think most of the heavy and more complicated equipment will be pretty useless in the hands of the Taliban. The small arms and ammunition however.
But who knows? Maybe China will teach them how to use it.
China says ready for 'friendly relations' with Taliban after rout - France 24
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I don't have an issue with wealth, as long as he didn't sweat-shop those streams somehow. I'd love to sell my stupid books and get a pool as a result. I'd love to sell my stupid books. Book. After writing it. Love to!
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
This is it, eight here.
Whether they have changed remains to be seen but the Taliban now have to adjust their rule in response to the 20 years of U.S. presence.
Women have rights now and they are in no hurry to give them up. The majority of Afghans, including the Taliban themselves, now use technology and the internet. Computers, which were a rare sight back during the Talibans earlier rule, are more commonplace. While America definitely failed in some respects, they succeeded in others. If this new Taliban really does change, then in some ways it is due to being forced to adapt to an afghan society that has come to expect these things under the Americans.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Crni
https://wenr.wes.org/2018/10/education-in-south-korea#:~:text=Korea's education system underwent a,rate of only 22 percent.
This site would disagree with you. S. Korea post WW2 wasn't exactly well off and its population was incredibly illiterate with a 22 percent literacy rate. Only 5 percent had higher education.
In regards to unity, Korea was divided politically. Sure you didn't have the pesky sectarianism of Islam to deal with but to simply say Korean were not divided is incorrect. S. Korea went through like 6 republics, hardly a history of stable government.
Economically, Korea was devastated post WW2. Both halves required substantial assistance from their respective hegemons. After the Korean War, the nation again was devastated.
While I concede the peninsula matter, it was more or less the lack of sectarian violence that really helped. Most of the foreign fighters coming in were often joining fighting of a religious nature.
In the end, it was more about the effort expended in order to prop up many of the countries devastated by WW2. It is just unfortunate for Afghanistan that the country wasn't worth the sheer amount of effort needed to finish effecting change. While we stood by S. Korea and Taiwan and had the Marshall Plan for war ravaged europe, we gave abandoned the south vietnamese and we abandoned the afghans.
https://wenr.wes.org/2018/10/education-in-south-korea#:~:text=Korea's education system underwent a,rate of only 22 percent.
This site would disagree with you. S. Korea post WW2 wasn't exactly well off and its population was incredibly illiterate with a 22 percent literacy rate. Only 5 percent had higher education.
In regards to unity, Korea was divided politically. Sure you didn't have the pesky sectarianism of Islam to deal with but to simply say Korean were not divided is incorrect. S. Korea went through like 6 republics, hardly a history of stable government.
Economically, Korea was devastated post WW2. Both halves required substantial assistance from their respective hegemons. After the Korean War, the nation again was devastated.
While I concede the peninsula matter, it was more or less the lack of sectarian violence that really helped. Most of the foreign fighters coming in were often joining fighting of a religious nature.
In the end, it was more about the effort expended in order to prop up many of the countries devastated by WW2. It is just unfortunate for Afghanistan that the country wasn't worth the sheer amount of effort needed to finish effecting change. While we stood by S. Korea and Taiwan and had the Marshall Plan for war ravaged europe, we gave abandoned the south vietnamese and we abandoned the afghans.
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Still South Korea was not a battleground for 20+ years for the United States. At least not that I know of. But I have to admit I am not a historian when it comes to the occupation and culture in South Korea. Anyway it's still obvious that South Korea and Afghanistan are vastly different types of countries. And that's my point. What worked in South Korea doesn't have to necessarily work the same way in other countries.
Morgan_
Duckerz
I'm basically thinking of how any society has changed as it's modernized and this seems to be true for a lot of the mid east at the moment. Saudi Arabia is letting women drive again and Iranian women are protesting sometimes by wearing daisy duke type shorts and sometimes just getting fined for it.
TheGM
The voice of reason
You really can't fault the Western Intelligence agencies for having this one slip though the cracks. they had more serious threats to deal with.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I have a feeling that the religious police in Iran would have much more severe had Iranians not been modernized by the Shah. The West has fucked up in a few ways but changing culture and modernisation is not one of those failures.
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DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Differences sure but hardly insurmountable. What it really boils down to is effort. What is Afghanistan truly worth?
We got our answer.
Like I said I am far from qualified to actually even decide what ever if that is right or wrong.
But some regions and nations might really be to difficult to change particularly as we can't even narrow down what success really means. Would the Afghan people even like their nation to be like South Korea? Obviously the Taliban are bad and I would love to see them go and bite the dust. But if we leave the Taliban out for a moment and just talk about our idea of a "good" nation in general. What we often consider as success is narrowed down to an (ideolized) image of western civilisation with free elections, french freedom fries and a coke in everones hand or something like that.
You know I am joking but you get the picture.
I think you would be surprised though how many people in the world genuely reject our idea of success politcally and culturally.
Morgan_
Duckerz
Gaben has confirmed that Taliban accounts will be banned from Steam much to this girls delight.
You could say they are runing out of ... Steam.