Raven Rock

[The Dutch Ghost]

why? the main quest is one of the worst ones (I think wasteland survival guide takes the cake though)

No, I agree on that part, I meant that the rest was well written.

Stuff like Tenpenny's desire to nuke Megaton, or the Family are awful.

 

[Brother None]

Some bits and pieces have ok writing, but when they do the voice-acting cuts it right out (I love how they have only one voice actor for "old man", Bethesda strikes again)

Dialogue is pretty far from this game's strong point

 

[oihrebwe]

by far the most annoying voice is the guy who plays "lucky harith" and some other black characters. for some reason the way he enunciates everything so hard really grosses me out

 

[bhlaab]

I think the writing and design is very good overall

Except for the main quest

 

[13pm]

More on the stupidity of Bethesda's story telling.

[spoiler:c8694ee4ce]I have just been watching movies that show the Raven Rock segment, how Autumn turns against the president and orders all Enclave soldiers to kill the player.

(this doesn't make much sense as later it would be revealed that Autumn and the player pretty much had the same objective; activating the purifier without inserting the FEV, well that is the idea Beth gave us)

The president orders all security bots to turn against the Enclave soldiers and then instructs the player to insert the modified FEV virus (God I hate the reuse of previous game plot devices) in the purifier, and then covers his/her escape with the defense robots; killing even more Enclave soldiers.

Just where to start in this mess?
Seeing what Autumn did, it would make more sense that he was consider an insurgent, and why would all the Enclave soldiers choose to side with him rather than the president?
Because Autumn revealed the president to be an AI?
He might have perhaps convinced a handful of people to join his side but there would probably also be a lot, even more who rather would side with the president than with someone who pretty much broke with the Enclave because he wanted to save the wasteland 'mutants' (probably the 'regular' humans but still).

Weren't these guys around when president Richardson was planning to gas the US mainland with modified FEV?
I didn't hear much complaints then, or has several decades on the mainland taught the Enclave sympathy for the at least normal human looking 'mutants'?

Ugh, start making sense Bethesda.

If anything, if the player would have arrived in Washington DC he/she could have run into Autumn who tells the player that he has changed his mind and doesn't want to sabotage the purifier.

The player can choose also not to install the FEV, blady blady blah (you get it) and turn against the president too.
The president learns of this and sends his robots to kill the player, the renegade Enclave soldiers who by this point probably will also protect the purifier, and the Brotherhood who have also join for some reason.

Who the hell came up with this convoluted mess?
I am an amateur writer and all this broken logic hurts my brain and makes me want to cry that there are people who actually consider this 'good story telling'.
By now a lot of good dead writers are spinning in their grave as the standard of good story telling goes down several notches.

Hell had FOPOS not brought up all the crap about Super Mutants wanting to rebuild the Vats in its manual people would probably call that game's story superior as it was about Super Mutants seeking a cure for their sterility so that they could breed and replace humans as the dominant species on Earth.

If this is the standard which Emil goes by I should definitely be able to become a game designer one day; I have more passion in good story telling than this lazy hack.[/spoiler:c8694ee4ce]

Don't forget about Autumn's two resurrections While everyone dies, he stays alive.

 

[bhlaab]

To be fair, I don't think many of those great dead writers would be terribly concerned about Fallout 3.

 

[Leon]

Don't forget about Autumn's two resurrections While everyone dies, he stays alive.

No, really, what the fuck was up with that? Seriously? I'm completely, utterly lost on that situation.

 

[Tagaziel]

I have just been watching movies that show the Raven Rock segment, how Autumn turns against the president and orders all Enclave soldiers to kill the player.

(this doesn't make much sense as later it would be revealed that Autumn and the player pretty much had the same objective; activating the purifier without inserting the FEV, well that is the idea Beth gave us)

That's the irony. The Enclave and the player pursue the same goal, but it's the grudge the Brotherhood possesses that leads to the assault on the Jefferson Memorial.

What I don't like is the fact that you can't convince Autumn to join the struggle to save the wasteland, which is what he did.

The president orders all security bots to turn against the Enclave soldiers and then instructs the player to insert the modified FEV virus (God I hate the reuse of previous game plot devices) in the purifier, and then covers his/her escape with the defense robots; killing even more Enclave soldiers.

Still wondering why the Enclave deserted?

Just where to start in this mess?
Seeing what Autumn did, it would make more sense that he was consider an insurgent, and why would all the Enclave soldiers choose to side with him rather than the president?
Because Autumn revealed the president to be an AI?

No, because Autumn was the one who led them to the East Coast and was their highest human commander. Years spent under Autumn's succesful command versus Eden's idealistic pipe dream dogma covering up his genocide plans.

He might have perhaps convinced a handful of people to join his side but there would probably also be a lot, even more who rather would side with the president than with someone who pretty much broke with the Enclave because he wanted to save the wasteland 'mutants' (probably the 'regular' humans but still).

Weren't these guys around when president Richardson was planning to gas the US mainland with modified FEV?
I didn't hear much complaints then, or has several decades on the mainland taught the Enclave sympathy for the at least normal human looking 'mutants'?

Do you honestly think everyone in the Enclave was aware that the Project was designed for genocide?

Here's an excerpt from Richardson's State of the Nation draft:

) Go on like this for a bit to cover Curling's project.

Total and utter genocide would not go well with people. Curling's reaction to the player's remark that mainland humans are simply a different kind of human points to that.

Also, Autumn. He was unwilling to eradicate everyone according to the President's wishes, and no doubt revealed that sinister plan to the rest of the Enclave members.

Human psyche isn't suited for genocide, look at the German extermination squads during World War II - highest percentages of alcoholism, drug abuse and suicides due to the extreme psychological stress of executing hundreds of people at a time.

And those were people indoctrinated and trained to do so.

Now imagine the average Enclave grunt.

If anything, if the player would have arrived in Washington DC he/she could have run into Autumn who tells the player that he has changed his mind and doesn't want to sabotage the purifier.

You run into American highest commanders daily? Gee, I envy you. Al Quaeda propably does too. :p

The player can choose also not to install the FEV, blady blady blah (you get it) and turn against the president too.
The president learns of this and sends his robots to kill the player, the renegade Enclave soldiers who by this point probably will also protect the purifier, and the Brotherhood who have also join for some reason.

The Enclave is defined by it's members. If Autumn says it reclaims the wasteland and rules over it's people, then that's the Enclave goal.

Not to mention that the Enclave is entitled to ruling the PSA, since they're direct descendants of the pre-War government.

While it's certainly not the best possible course for a story, it's certainly not the worst, especially the irony of fighting for the same end, over a thirty year old grudge the Brotherhood holds.

 

[Brother None]

That's the irony. The Enclave and the player pursue the same goal, but it's the grudge the Brotherhood possesses that leads to the assault on the Jefferson Memorial.

Wrong. The Wanderer has either the same goal as Eden or the noble goal of giving pure water for the greater good - selflessly. Autumn clearly wants to lock down Project Purity and use the Enclave's position as sole purveyor of water to solidify their power base. The Enclave is still evil, just not genocidal

Still wondering why the Enclave deserted?

Yes. When Autumn countermands the order from Eden, why does everyone immediately obey? Doesn't Eden outrank Autumn? The whole Eden-turning-on-his-own-men happens after all Enclave troops spontaneously decide to follow the lower-ranked officer. Why?

No, because Autumn was the one who led them to the East Coast and was their highest human commander.

Nobody except Autumn knows Eden is an AI, and the order to come to the East Coast came from Eden, not Autumn.

Years spent under Autumn's succesful command versus Eden's idealistic pipe dream dogma covering up his genocide plans.

Idealistic pipe dream? You mean, oh I dunno, exactly the same thing these same Enclave soldiers were fighting for on the West Coast?

Now imagine the average Enclave grunt.

The average Enclave grunt who has been indoctrinated with racist tendencies from birth and is used to seeing inhuman characters like ghouls and super mutants?

 

[Tycn]

Fawkes not stepping into the chamber for you. What the fuck? They couldn't even bother to come up with a plausible reason for this other than "Fawkes is insane yo"

He said that to me too. And when I entered the chamber and looked back... guess what, Fawkes had teleported in with me.

Don't forget about Autumn's two resurrections While everyone dies, he stays alive.

Yeah, the plot is a total mess. But then again, they did make a GIANT FUCKING ROBOT that shoots lasers out of its eyes. Probably the worst deus ex machina I've seen in a game.

 

[Tagaziel]

Wrong. The Wanderer has either the same goal as Eden or the noble goal of giving pure water for the greater good - selflessly. Autumn clearly wants to lock down Project Purity and use the Enclave's position as sole purveyor of water to solidify their power base. The Enclave is still evil, just not genocidal

Fine by me. I'd actually prefer some government regulation rather than a bunch of do-gooders who can't even convince a radiation resistant supermutant to punch the on/off button.

Yes. When Autumn countermands the order from Eden, why does everyone immediately obey? Doesn't Eden outrank Autumn? The whole Eden-turning-on-his-own-men happens after all Enclave troops spontaneously decide to follow the lower-ranked officer. Why?

Nobody except Autumn knows Eden is an AI, and the order to come to the East Coast came from Eden, not Autumn.

Because it was the Colonel who kept the Enclave remnants together after the Oil Rig's destruction and led them cross-country to DC. It's Autumn who has proven to be an effective leader and is respected by his soldiers.

Me, I'd follow a CO who kept me alive for the past thirty years rather than a President who conveniently appeared when the Oil Rig joined the Cathedral.

Idealistic pipe dream? You mean, oh I dunno, exactly the same thing these same Enclave soldiers were fighting for on the West Coast?

They were fighting for America, not the Project.

Richardson noted to cover the Project's true nature up during his State of the Nation speech, indicating that not everyone was familiar with the Project's nature.

The average Enclave grunt who has been indoctrinated with racist tendencies from birth and is used to seeing inhuman characters like ghouls and super mutants?

Yes. Exactly like the German troops I've mentioned.

 

[Brother None]

Because it was the Colonel who kept the Enclave remnants together after the Oil Rig's destruction and led them cross-country to DC. It's Autumn who has proven to be an effective leader and is respected by his soldiers.

Me, I'd follow a CO who kept me alive for the past thirty years rather than a President who conveniently appeared when the Oil Rig joined the Cathedral.

You forget the position the president has in the American mindset.

Now, let's recall: the Enclave captures the Wandered by order of the President/Autumn (in agreement, apparently) for Autumn wants the Purity code (unclear if people generally know this), Eden orders everyone to lay off the Wandered and all soldiers obey, telling him to go see the president as ordered...

Moments later, Autumn pipes in countermanding the order of the commander in chief and without a moment's hesitation every soldier grabs his gun and starts shooting at the guy they had to painstakingly make sure wasn't hurt when they captured him (as specified by Autumn)...

Making a lot of sense here?

Look, Grizz, like the dialogue in which you talk Eden into suicide (not the circular logic one, which is slightly better since it basically just causes a software crash), you could talk some sense into this situation, but the fact is that it isn't actually there in the game: the game does absolutely nothing to make this turn of events plausible, one sentence being enough for a bunch of soldiers to turn on the man they plead allegiance to? Please. Bethesda doesn't bother to explain these plot-twists and that means they're plot-holes, even if they got people like you to try and fill 'em up.

They were fighting for America, not the Project.

They still are. And it's not orthodox for American soldiers to rebell against their president without a reason given.

Richardson noted to cover the Project's true nature up during his State of the Nation speech, indicating that not everyone was familiar with the Project's nature.

And the Enclave troops still don't know in Fallout 3. So the question remains, why are they rebelling against the president? The project isn't the reason; they don't know about it.

Yes. Exactly like the German troops I've mentioned.

Did you...did you just call Jews inhuman?

Because my point seems to have sailed over your head: German troops weren't raised from birth with Nazi doctrines, and Jews were humans (even though you apparently don't think so), while the Enclave clearly has inhuman creatures to oppose with their project.

 

[13pm]

No, really, what the fuck was up with that? Seriously? I'm completely, utterly lost on that situation.

He somehow survives the overload your daddy causes in the PP control chamber. I entered the chamber via noclip mode and it's definetely Autumn lying dead (not uncoscious, you can loot his body).

Then he appears at the Vault 87 and takes you to Raven Rock and then somehow escapes the exploding Enclave base (okay, that one can be explained somehow).

Then you kill him with couple of shots. The question is how you can kill him so easily, while he's more immortal than your immortal daddy? And how could he survive the radiation in the control chamber being dressed in a coat, while you die wearing Power Armor?

 

[Tagaziel]

You forget the position the president has in the American mindset.

Now, let's recall: the Enclave captures the Wandered by order of the President/Autumn (in agreement, apparently) for Autumn wants the Purity code (unclear if people generally know this), Eden orders everyone to lay off the Wandered and all soldiers obey, telling him to go see the president as ordered...

Moments later, Autumn pipes in countermanding the order of the commander in chief and without a moment's hesitation every soldier grabs his gun and starts shooting at the guy they had to painstakingly make sure wasn't hurt when they captured him (as specified by Autumn)...

To me, it showed just how weak of a position Eden had in the Enclave. An unelected usurper versus a CO that has been with his soldiers to hell and back. My choice of loyalties is obvious.

Though I agree, it could've been done better.

Look, Grizz, like the dialogue in which you talk Eden into suicide (not the circular logic one, which is slightly better since it basically just causes a software crash), you could talk some sense into this situation, but the fact is that it isn't actually there in the game: the game does absolutely nothing to make this turn of events plausible, one sentence being enough for a bunch of soldiers to turn on the man they plead allegiance to? Please. Bethesda doesn't bother to explain these plot-twists and that means they're plot-holes, even if they got people like you to try and fill 'em up.

I try to fill them up because I really like Augustus Autumn and the Enclave.

And I like filling in plot-holes, it's an interesting mental exercise.

They still are. And it's not orthodox for American soldiers to rebell against their president without a reason given.

True. There should've been something about Autumn using a special procedure that strips the President of his power or something.

And the Enclave troops still don't know in Fallout 3. So the question remains, why are they rebelling against the president? The project isn't the reason; they don't know about it.

I'm at loss here too.

Did you...did you just call Jews inhuman?

No, I said that the Enclave mental conditioning is similiar to what German troops underwent. Not that Jews are inhuman (I propably have one or two people of Jewish descent in my family tree if I dig deep enough).

Because my point seems to have sailed over your head: German troops weren't raised from birth with Nazi doctrines, and Jews were humans (even though you apparently don't think so), while the Enclave clearly has inhuman creatures to oppose with their project.

I don't doubt the Enclave's eventual goal of cleansing ghouls and Supermutant s- my point is, Enclave troopers would not like to participate in eradicating people who look, act and live like them. Non-enclave humans.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Where it comes to is that the whole Enclave/Raven Rock segment is broken from a story design point of view.

It contradicts itself on several occasions and just doesn't make sense.

Plus is there any part in which we hear that Autumn wants the Enclave to gain power by being the only source of clean water?

Even Eden could have mentioned that when talking to the player, that Autumn brought up that plan.

No, it simply is very very messed up.

 

[Delogic]

Don't forget that somehow, for some reason, the purifier is "sabotaged" so that if you don't turn it on NOW, it's going to be destroyed.

I mean, how do you sabotage something to blow if you DO NOT turn it of within bla bla seconds.. stupid in other words.

-

You've got to quess the code for the purifier, not a hard task by any standard, but you CAN just choose the other dialogue option and let the woman-paladin go in and you find out the code that way. So the whole guess the code shit is stupid as well. They really could have gone further there, but then again.. they could have gone further in almost every aspect.

-

As to the hints and stuff, you meet Autumn like 2 times in short scripted segments. It's not like you have the time to like or dislike somebody. So, if you're a fan, you must be a cheap guy to entertain - nothing wrong with that..

PS: I'll second that request for a Liberty Prime Action Figure, with voicemodule testing - Sounds cool!

 

[Tagaziel]

Where it comes to is that the whole Enclave/Raven Rock segment is broken from a story design point of view.

It contradicts itself on several occasions and just doesn't make sense.

Plus is there any part in which we hear that Autumn wants the Enclave to gain power by being the only source of clean water?

Even Eden could have mentioned that when talking to the player, that Autumn brought up that plan.

No, it simply is very very messed up.

Listen to the Enclave Radio. I do.

Don't forget that somehow, for some reason, the purifier is "sabotaged" so that if you don't turn it on NOW, it's going to be destroyed.

It was damaged in the fighting and pressure was building up inside.

People. We pride ourselves in being Fallout players. Why don't you listen to what people say to you?

As to the hints and stuff, you meet Autumn like 2 times in short scripted segments. It's not like you have the time to like or dislike somebody. So, if you're a fan, you must be a cheap guy to entertain - nothing wrong with that..

He appears on the Enclave Radio too.

 

[Delogic]

[
It was damaged in the fighting and pressure was building up inside.

He appears on the Enclave Radio too.

1. Its not running yet, but it's going to blow.
2. If you turn it on, it will fix it self.

Well, ok, it wasn't a major point anyhow, not like the glaring Fawkes "Don't let me stop you" asshole line.

As for the Enclave radio, I'm impressed you actually listened to that station. Horrible music, same lines over and over again - much more so than 3dogs stuff - gave me no appetite for it. Perhaps it got better later in the game, if so, I am in the wrong.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

While I have warmed up to the idea of the Raven Rock facility being another Enclave base or replacement base for the Oil rig/Navarro bases, I simply do not care of how the Enclave was used in this game or this game in general.

Weak story, none interesting characters, some really awful quests, lots of reuses of plot devices as apparently the designers have no creativity of their own (they will probably say that they did all of this as a connection to Fallout, but that line can be shot down in various ways).

It fails as a RPG, it fails as a shooter, and it fails as a Fallout game.
Wrong at all three of them Bethesda.

 

[TheFlyingBuddha]

As for the Enclave radio, I'm impressed you actually listened to that station. Horrible music, same lines over and over again - much more so than 3dogs stuff - gave me no appetite for it. Perhaps it got better later in the game, if so, I am in the wrong.

Of course the music was horrible, the point wasn't that it was going to appeal to most players, the point is it establishes a mood. Same goes for Eden's dialog on the radio. If it's ridiculous when you analyze it, that's because it is. It's not meant to be anything other than a politician cooing a simplistic "It'll all be ok, just listen to me," to the people on the outside. It achieves this effect perfectly.