Raven Rock

If you thought the science areas were "omg bodies in tanks, scary/faux horror!" I think you are seriously wrong in your interpretation... That stuff came off to me as reinforcing the Enclave's view of the outside world, that everybody they do not consider to be "human" or "good enough" as Richardson says, are basically just subjects for them to study and nothing more.
 
I love the game but I must admit Raven Rock felt far too short and much too rushed. The game does seem to have a few plot holes (why are enclave evil when you're a vault dweller, etc.) But overall I still love the game.

The dialogue isn't bad at all in Fallout 3 - sure you found a bad dialogue from a choice of many at that stage (I chose to show his circular logic and make him crash) but it's not like every line in Fallout 1/2 was great either (like breaking the fourth wall faggotry).

Ultimately, I think too many of you have decided you're going to hate the game before trying it and then you will hate it. Oh well, your loss because I think it's a great game, has had great sales and will hopefully be the basis of future Fallout games.
 
Brother None said:
but here's the thing: there's still set sci fi ways of expressing these kind of "shock into realisation" moments for machines. Y'know, "teach me about love, hu-man", that kind of shit.
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What could have worked in the 'convince Eden is wrong' idea would be prior quests or discoveries of notes, tapes etc. where prior 'good' ideas of Eden and the Enclave were shown to have a bad effect on the very world that Eden thinks it is helping, something along the lines of telling the Master that mutants were sterile AFTER finding this information out from somewhere else before.

Why not in your travels run into Enclave defectors, victims etc. who have information about prior Enclave schemes hatched by Eden and then depending on how many things and how detailed your accumulation of knowledge is, you can confront Eden with as many failures as possible. If you only have disjointed info you fail to convince Eden, but you may be able to bluff him with a very high speech skill as well. If your data is thorough, then Eden will give up regardless of speech ability.

I don't know, some shit like this is hardly groundbreaking, but I came up with it in a minute, and it would hardly have been difficult to implement.

The more I think about Fallout 3's drawbacks the more I wonder if the developers really are complete imbeciles, or they were forced to release the game 6 months too early. Sure I don't think it would have made it a better Fallout game, but maybe just a better game.
 
Yazman said:
If you thought the science areas were "omg bodies in tanks, scary/faux horror!" I think you are seriously wrong in your interpretation...
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Really? So it's a coincidence that first you meet a bunch of FEV reject experiments that looks like they're straight from the Aliens series of films, and then you see a bunch of bodies floating in tanks? Not to mention the Dunwich building?

Bethesda ham-fistedly tried to apply a kind of 80's-90's horror theme into the game. That's a pretty bad idea, since Fallout 3 is not 80's-90's horror themed.
 
Brother None said:
Yazman said:
If you thought the science areas were "omg bodies in tanks, scary/faux horror!" I think you are seriously wrong in your interpretation...
Click to expand...

Really? So it's a coincidence that first you meet a bunch of FEV reject experiments that looks like they're straight from the Aliens series of films, and then you see a bunch of bodies floating in tanks? Not to mention the Dunwich building?

Bethesda ham-fistedly tried to apply a kind of 80's-90's horror theme into the game. That's a pretty bad idea, since Fallout 3 is not 80's-90's horror themed.
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Nit-picking much?

These were tiny areas of the game, there are much, much bigger problems in Fallout 3 than this. I don't think Bethesda did too badly with the whole Wasteland feel except for the fact it feels like it's only been 10 years since The War.
 
So there are now 'much, much bigger problems in Fallout 3' and Beth didn't do 'too badly' with the feel 'except' that it feels..etc.

I don't know how you can now say these things, yet then talk on other threads about how Fallout 3 is the greatest game ever and be angry when people point out flaws.

Actually for you to acknowledge that people here have a point is something. Maybe you are trying to convince yourself of the game's 'greatness' while its flaws nag you in the back of your mind. I know, I tried to like the game too.
 
jamesmcm said:
Nit-picking much?

These were tiny areas of the game, there are much, much bigger problems in Fallout 3 than this. I don't think Bethesda did too badly with the whole Wasteland feel except for the fact it feels like it's only been 10 years since The War.
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So Vault 87 and Raven Rock are "tiny locations" even though they're obligatory to the main quest?
 
I wouldn't call Vault 87 tiny, it seemed to go on for ages.
Though that might of been the samey corridors and rooms.

Some of the concept art of Raven Rock makes it look interesting. Seems originally it might of been a tiered mini city with electronic billboards of Eden talking.
Shame it turned into a rather bland corridor.
 
jamesmcm said:
Nit-picking much?
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Not really. Raven Rock is practically the finishing location of Fallout 3. It's Fallout 3's Oil Rig/Cathedral. Only it's a bad dungeon crawl with laughable dialogue, taken along by a bad plot and making the Enclave - always a faction that did not feel that right in Fallout - even more Fallout-inappropriate by turning them into a bunch of lovers of horror.

That's just an example of a broader problem with Bethesda's half-hearted attempt at adding horror to Fallout's mix, tho'
 
Commiered said:
What could have worked in the 'convince Eden is wrong' idea would be prior quests or discoveries of notes, tapes etc. where prior 'good' ideas of Eden and the Enclave were shown to have a bad effect on the very world that Eden thinks it is helping, something along the lines of telling the Master that mutants were sterile AFTER finding this information out from somewhere else before.

Why not in your travels run into Enclave defectors, victims etc. who have information about prior Enclave schemes hatched by Eden and then depending on how many things and how detailed your accumulation of knowledge is, you can confront Eden with as many failures as possible. If you only have disjointed info you fail to convince Eden, but you may be able to bluff him with a very high speech skill as well. If your data is thorough, then Eden will give up regardless of speech ability.

I don't know, some shit like this is hardly groundbreaking, but I came up with it in a minute, and it would hardly have been difficult to implement.
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Exactly.

Hell, I would have just been happy if the entire conversation was longer and a lot more complicated - just anything more believable than you basically saying, "Your logic = epic fail LOL" and Eden going, "Oh shit I got owned, get out while you can!"
 
Alphadrop said:
I wouldn't call Vault 87 tiny, it seemed to go on for ages.
Though that might of been the samey corridors and rooms.

Some of the concept art of Raven Rock makes it look interesting. Seems originally it might of been a tiered mini city with electronic billboards of Eden talking.
Shame it turned into a rather bland corridor.
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Well I guess they just could not walk away from the known "TES" dungeon crawl ... thats how I feelt in vault 87 and Raven Rock anyway. Well at least from that ponit they turn hostile toward you ... which I hated so much. Dunno I really would have loved to see a plot that you can somewhat become a "friend" of the enclave and their troops. I would have loved to kill officialy the Bethesdian BoS ...
 
Brother None said:
4. And yes, you knew it was coming, the suicide talk. That is some of the most astoundingly bad writing I have ever seen. It's as bad as Harold going "well, hmmm, I never considered that" over an insignificant remark, suddenly all his suicide tendencies fade away. It's like that but in reverse with Eden, and it's just as jarring and unconvincing.
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This remindes me so much of Prey where you're a Native American dude Tommy battling on the intergalactic spaceship "Sphere". I remember the ending... You kill the final boss and then appear to take his position (no choice given here). As you plot on how to overtake the Earth, you hear your grandfather's voice for the 100th time...

GRANDFATHER: Tommy...
YOU (in sinister voice): I have so much power! I can do anything!
GRANDFATHER: Tommy, you know what you must do. The right thing.
YOU: Yes, the right thing.

Then he crashes himself and the Sphere into the Sun.
 
schatzi said:
ouch...that was harsh.

just ordered the game some hours ago. my roleplaying expectations have dropped another two notches.
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I actually the storyline and dialogue except the last scene. Even though I spent 3 hours just download mods and another hour for the game to install.

Of course, the music makes the game.
 
I liked the look of Raven Rock, but I agree that there wasn't enough of it, and leaving the player to shoot stuff and talk to a computer didn't help anything.

The suicide talk was, in my opinion, the worst design decision of the game. No more suicide talks.
 
It was actually very difficult to believe it was the same Enclave that was there to greet those Vault residents in the intro to Fallout 2.
 
Romulus said:
The game felt like a massive orgasm coming on, then stopping short of something so potentially beautiful. In the end, it has left me with a mixture of two extreme conflicting emotions.
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Wow, I think you said exactly what I was looking to say. I felt such a let down towards the end as I realized that they just plain old messed up.

Having a massive area to explore is great, but it doesn't make it an RPG.
 
Man, such hate. I loved Raven Rock, it's my favorite game area and did a great job in fleshing out the Enclave more, IMO. Hell of a lot better than the Citadel in regards to how it fleshed out the Lyons' Brotherhood. It's disappointing how Bethesda didn't do more for it though, if only they'd included the whole factions aspect of Oblivion and let you side with the Enclave instead of the BoS as a reward for siding with evil.
 
Nah, Raven Rock was all build up and no follow-through. Maybe Eden was already infected with a virus? Would certainly have made a more interesting twist than what we were left with, which had all the nourishment and substance of cotton candy when you step back and look at it.
 
I honestly thought that Raven Rock was so bad that it was funny. It was "Plan 9" bad. It was almost surreal. It might have worked as part of a David Lynch movie. I wouldn't have been surprised if my character transformed into Col. Autumn at some point.
 
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