Raven Rock

"...but the radiation levels in there are through the roof!"

"How radioactive is it?"

"Let me put it this way - there's enough radiation in there to kill a SuperMutant."

Problem solved. Honestly, that took five minutes for me to come up with - I gave up on the game weeks ago, and finally watched the ending sequence just now.

Still one problem though... Fawkes owes you his freedom, maybe even his life, and seems to be a chivalrous character - wouldn't he see it as his moral obligation to take your place? Especially considering all the good you've done for the Wasteland. The reason Secret Service agents take a bullet for the President, is that they (in valuing their country) recognize that the value of the President's life is higher than their own. Hasn't the kid from 101 shown that his life is too valuable to be thrown away for the sake of pulling a leaver anyone could pull?

Goddamn, at least put in an argument between yourself and Lyons, about who get's to throw away their own life!

Also, what's with the weird Christian morality throughout the game? Did Todd get reborn while this game was being made? "The one virtue the Vault 101 kid didn't recognize... was sacrifice." This type of moral absoluteness is fine in a Medieval-Fantasy RPG, but not in the post-apocalyptic wasteland. The Vault Dweller and the Chosen One were self-sacrificing and noble, not because of some outside god-enforced standard of behaviour, but because of the internally-derived morals they found within themselves. They didn't have all the answers, but they saw something that needed doing - and they did it.

I'll bet somebody out there is writing a graduate thesis on Fallout 3, using it as a critique of Christian morality.
 
That would be fine, but it would make no sense that Fawkes got the G.E.C.K for you in Vault 87, and it was just as radiated as the purifier. And there's the fact that Super Mutants have been immune to radiation since the first Fallout game. The EEV mutants are just as immune to radiation as the FEV mutants. Which means that it doesn't even register as a blimp on their care-o-meter. Doing the whole thing for Fawkes would take just a minute of his time, pronto, no one dies.

And Charon decides to be a annoying cunt in the endgame. "Read the contract." Why can't I and Sarah Lyons just point our big guns at his face and force him to do it. I am sure that between dying (not doing what I said) and not dying (doing what I said), he would choose the second option. Hell, a good character could convince him to go to the purifier in exchange for his contract.

But what's the explanation for RL-3? He's not even a biological being!
 
I've written just about the same in another topic - it's like the whole point of the game is to teach you on morals. Don't steal. Don't kill a child (although killing a young woman or an old man is still fine). Sacrifice yourself in the name of the country. That "OMG, your mom was such a wonderful person" through all the game is sickening. That fight between Good and Evil, the game itself is full of black-and-white sides... oh my.

I constantly had a feeling that Beth. devs have an intellectual and emotional maturity of a suburban teenager, who lives in his parents basement and doesn't have a life. "Bethesda: by teenagers, for teenagers".
 
pipboy-x11 said:
I've written just about the same in another topic - it's like the whole point of the game is to teach you on morals. Don't steal. Don't kill a child (although killing a young woman or an old man is still fine). Sacrifice yourself in the name of the country. That "OMG, your mom was such a wonderful person" through all the game is sickening. That fight between Good and Evil, the game itself is full of black-and-white sides... oh my.

I constantly had a feeling that Beth. devs have an intellectual and emotional maturity of a suburban teenager, who lives in his parents basement and doesn't have a life. "Bethesda: by teenagers, for teenagers".
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Bolded for emphasis. Everytime I see a pic of mr h I can't help but imagine him wearing a pilgrim/puritan outfit.
 
While I agree that wasteland morality is enitrely different than what we have now. THe biblical themes COULD fit, considering the recurring usage of the passage from the book of revelation. It is implied during the growing up phase that the bible played some sort of part in the PC's upbringing, so having a western/christian view of morality can be explained that way...even if so many of the ethical decisions mad ein game have some messed up ideas of right and wrong for ANY society.
 
its quite interesting what view Bethesda seems to have regarding the church if you consider that you can increase your karma by donating money to a "church".

Cant say that I really like that idea. Fallout 3 seems to be overly friendly toward authority anyway were both Fallout 1 and 2 were pretty different.
 
If Bethesda wants to be Charlie Church its their own business, but should they force 'Christian' values upon gamers?

I think everyone can agree in general on 'human' values, things everyone can agree upon despite what their religion is.

Plus Fallout wasn't about being good or bad, had Fallout 1 been made as original planned, sometimes a 'bad' decision turned out to be better than what is perceive to be the 'good' decision.
 
Crni Vuk said:
its quite interesting what view Bethesda seems to have regarding the church if you consider that you can increase your karma by donating money to a "church".
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What really got me is that you even got positive karma for donating to those nutters in Megaton that wanted to bomb to explode.

(Then again, maybe I don't want to risk opening up the can of worms that is Megaton design flaws...)

This design team was just REALLY conflicted about morals, weren't they? Maybe they thought that if they included enough contradictory, inconsistent crap they'd reach that coveted "moral grey area" we'd been griping about.
 
Yamu said:
Crni Vuk said:
its quite interesting what view Bethesda seems to have regarding the church if you consider that you can increase your karma by donating money to a "church".
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What really got me is that you even got positive karma for donating to those nutters in Megaton that wanted to bomb to explode.

(Then again, maybe I don't want to risk opening up the can of worms that is Megaton design flaws...)

This design team was just REALLY conflicted about morals, weren't they? Maybe they thought that if they included enough contradictory, inconsistent crap they'd reach that coveted "moral grey area" we'd been griping about.
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The whole karma system in F3 is just a BAD IDEA to begin with. Karma is definitive (either good or bad). There are very feww things that everybody agrees are strictly either "good or bad". Is a thief "bad"? Well in mosts eyes however in the thiefs maybe he has bucked society and all its BS trappings and doesn't want to "play" a game he is being forced into and so becomes a thief as a way to get back some control over his life that he rationalizes has been unjustly taken from him. Sure there is always the garden variety "bad" guys that don't do things out of a higher belief but simply because they are selfish. But the point is there are very few instances of "black & white" morality.

Not to mention the fact that doing "good" or "bad" deeds and asigning karma to them works great if you are being judged by the all knowing/seeing one but if a HUMAN didn't directly witness (or hear about your deeds) then what the hell is karma doing in a video game such as this? Does everybody in F3 have ESP and they know everything you've ever done despite that they have witnessed little (if any) of it? So random NPC knows if you stole something out of some locker somewhere and treats you accordingly? (I'm talking about the cumulative effect of unseen karma not one instance) Total non-sense. What F3 should have had is reputation. That's it. No more all seeing/knowing karma. Have everything based on what you did and who (if any) have seen or know about it and who (if any) NPCs have heard through word of mouth about your deeds.

Of course that would make too much sense and we can't have that now, can we.
 
the only "gray" area that you get in Fallout 3 is when you try to do "good" and "bad" equal to each other, like so many of those "true" RPGs today ... kinda depressing as that is not what I see as true neutrality or "gray" areas. There is almost nothing gray in Fallout 3.
 
Ok I just have to mention one more thing here. I've been messing around with the ending to see what great new 'weatherbeaten shaky' slides/screenshots I get to see (high effort BTW beth). So I put the FEV in the purifier, input the code yada yada game ends shows the same slides I already saw when I was supposed to be a good guy then tacks on after that that I went bad etc by helping the enclave & killing most the people in the wasteland. Ok, now what IMMEDIATELY made me LOL as soon as the narrator said it was this (I'm paraphrasing don't remember exact quote). It said 'Despite the PROGRESS of the people of the capitol wasteland' yada yada they were all killed etc. PROGRESS! Oh indeed, they've had 200 years and the best they can muster is living on an old ship or some ramshackle town! Were not cities far more developed in F2 (which takes place SOONER?)

Seems to me the Enclave are probably the only group who have their fucking act together (even if it is ruthless). Hey maybe a wasteland full of such blatant idiots deserves to die? I think the Enclave are on to something.

Game is just beyond absurd.
 
Crni Vuk said:
There is almost nothing gray in Fallout 3.
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Well, except for, I dunno, 80% of the capital wasteland. Guess the writers delegated that "grey" mandate to the art department.

The karma system in the first couple of Fallouts was pretty straightforward: go out of your way for the good of a sentient being, good karma. Inflict more harm on sentients than is necessary for your own survival or the greater good, negative karma. Very few other actions move the needle.

What was so hard about that?

@ Holocausto: far be it from me to be an F3 apologist, but I get the general impression that the Super Mutants and other undesirables were supposedly making things pretty tough before The Brotherhood hit the capital wasteland. (Unless you happened to live behind ramshackle walls of junk in Megaton. Or in a rocket-proof high-rise apartment. Or were under the age of 16. Or... well, you get it. Logical inconsistencies aside, I really do think that Beth's vision of the capital wastes pre-Steel was even more choked with opposition than it is when you step out of the vault.)
 
Yamu said:
@ Holocausto: far be it from me to be an F3 apologist, but I get the general impression that the Super Mutants were supposedly making things pretty tough before The Brotherhood hit the capital wasteland. (Unless you happened to live behind ramshackle walls of junk in Megaton. Or in a rocket-proof high-rise apartment. Or were under the age of 16. Or... well, you get it. Logical inconsistencies aside, I really do think that Beth's vision of the capital wastes pre-Brotherhood was a lot more choked with hardships than it is when you step out of the vault.)
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I don't know when BOS is supposed to have arrived on the DC scene (sorry if I nodded off during the enthralling storytelling experience provided by beth) but seriously how long have they had to make something of the place? If they are training initiates that implies that they didn't just get there yesterday. If it were me I'd be the guy rounding up the troops, the food, the supplies, every capable person gets fucking power armor & helmet and we head out en mass and annihilate the mutants. END OF STORY. BOS should quit pussyfooting around. Leave the minimum amount of guards back at the citadel (you really don't need that many since it's a CITADEL + mutants aren't going to attack the citadel while THEY are being attacked.

If BOS is worried about the Enclave attacking while the citadel is manned by a skeleton crew get liberty prime operating first to defend it or better yet send him out with a wreaking crew BOS company and attack the enclave base first then handle the super mutants. How long has BOS been twidling their thumbs?

Ok taken from wikia:
Current status

The war with the Super Mutants – a conflict that has continued unceasingly for over twenty years – rages on, and the Brotherhood is feeling the strain of this extended conflict. Without reinforcements from the West Coast, Lyons has been forced to recruit locally, and the results have been less than stellar: most new conscripts are overeager, unskilled, or both, and as a result their survival rate is atrocious.
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Ok OVER 20 years still can't get the job done. Maybe they don't work on commission. Also new conscripts are conveniently inept idiots (what a shocker). lol, I mean it is ridiculous isn't it? Oh well it's still fun to have a couple beers and try to think about the conundrum that is F3.
 
BOS should quit pussyfooting around.
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Agreed. Lyons' BOS was pussyfooting for too much time. Back west in the times of Fallout 1, the BOS was more disorganized due to the Elders never reaching a consensus, and guess what? As soon as you told them where the Military Base was, they sent a heavy assault squad with you, although that squad does not enters with you, go figure. Bug?

Lyons' BOS knew the location of FOUR Vaults and they never had the courage to investigate them. They could've found easily found the mutant base if they did more than fighting a stupid atrittion war while they don't even try to find more weapons. I can see why Casdin and his pals split up with the "BOS."
 
The BoS Outcasts are heros. That simple!

And I would love so much to see a mod that would make it possible to team up with them and show Lyon the reality of the wasteland. :clap:
 
I wish they would make a mod in which after you have convinced the Outcasts that you are above the wasteland rabble that they treat you friendly when you run into them.

As for Lyon's BoS, I find them rather annoying and its really obvious that Emil has them intended as 'white knights', at some point a couple of them discuss how they should talk as knights.

Than there is the crap of Kid Maxson's soul being forged in steel or something.

The BoS didn't act like knights of old, complete with ridiculous speech and lore, their hierarchy was just somewhat structured after it.
 
I wish they would make a mod in which after you have convinced the Outcasts that you are above the wasteland rabble that they treat you friendly when you run into them.
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I'm surprised the Outcasts didn't ask me to join them after I had supplied them enough laser rifles and pistols to build a army. That would've made a lot more sense.

I don't like this new BOS, its ridiculously good and nice. If they wanted to do a good spin-off BOS group, they should've done it better. The Midwestern BOS in Fallout Tactics is a excellent example of this. You can see that they are still the BOS, but diferent. They are a bunch of xenophobic techno-facists. The only reason the MWBOS stand as "heroes" in FOT is that anyone else is worse. Raiders are idiotic crazies, Beastlords are crazy tribals with mind powers, Reavers are a crazy, religious dark mirror of the brotherhood and the robots want to kill everything and everyone. The only barely reasonable side here was Gammorin's army of Super Mutants, who only wanted to solve the problem of Mutant Sterelity and were attacked cowardly by the MWBOS.

Compares this to Fallout 3, where Lyons' BOS are saints who keep the wastes at peace while not even searching for technology and fighting a stupid atrittion war against a army of Super Mutants. Way to go, Lyons.
 
I know that its a game and all, but honestly, it doesnt help that I, a vault dweller fresh out of the vault with no real experience can cap muties left and right with a worn down hunting rifle and no armor (I actually went out with out any clothes once, I was fiddlin with my armor and forgot to put it back on lol), and yet the BoS has dudes in PA and Laser rifles and they cant handle a handful of muties.

At least make the dudes tougher, as is, Im surprised they lasted 20 minutes let alone 20 years.
 
The Dutch Ghost said:
I wish they would make a mod in which after you have convinced the Outcasts that you are above the wasteland rabble that they treat you friendly when you run into them.

As for Lyon's BoS, I find them rather annoying and its really obvious that Emil has them intended as 'white knights', at some point a couple of them discuss how they should talk as knights.

Than there is the crap of Kid Maxson's soul being forged in steel or something.

The BoS didn't act like knights of old, complete with ridiculous speech and lore, their hierarchy was just somewhat structured after it.
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Now that as you mention it, do you know what is interesting. That many times interaction with the Brotherhood Outcast leave some bad taste. For example when you kill them and have the Lawbringer the Outcast will drop a "evil Finger" for you that you can sell, so in the world of Fallout 3 they are seen as evil. In Operation Anchorage (expect some spoiler now ...) they also turn the tide in the end when you survive cause some dont see the reason to keep the contract with you and give you access to the captured technology, thus you have to kill those Outcast that want to betray you.

It might be just only my impression, but I have to say that Fallout 3 does not realy give a lot of positive about the "original" Brotherhood because everyone knows they are plain evil and betray any wastelander as soon as possible.
 
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