Russian-Ukrainian war

a war between Russia and the west could have some potential though. Imagine how great the economy will flourish after the war ... people will have to buy everything that was destroyed again!
 
Speaking of irresponsible headlines... Anyone else here think it would be appropriate to rename this topic? I really feel that calling the current situation "Russian-Ukrainian war" does the entire subject a huge disservice. For one thing, it just prompts more users less educated about what's going on to assume, as much of the propaganda wants us to believe, that it IS a war, or a war on the horizon. For another thing... it's just NOT a war! There's a great many vast intricacies as far as foreign diplomacy goes and precedents regarding national secession, and what's going on right now is just a very complex scenario that's trying to be resolved as cleanly as possible, with outside parties doing their damnedest to make it look as dirty as they can. No war. So can we rename this to "Russian-Ukrainian conflict" or something less manipulative and wrong?
 
Technically you are right, there is no war. Military occupation and subterfuge is a better term.
 
There's nothing technical about it. Troops deployed to quell nationality-based violence and riots isn't a war, it's safeguarding borders and protecting citizens who used to be safe prior to the illegal deposition of the nation's leadership. The entire use of the term "war" here has been exclusively to subvert the reality of the situation and slowly ease audiences into the notion that ACTUAL war was just the next logical step, and that's manipulative bullshit.
 
Another chunk of Ukraine is lost and UN/USA/Europa says "this is bad Vladimir, it would be nice if you stop"
 
Another? Including Crimea, we're talking 3 or 4 chunks, as in oblasts.
Vice news has a very inclusive running report on it that is worth giving a daily check, especially since they are snoopy enough to get behind the barricades on many an occation.

Ukraine seems helpless in many of these situations, where they have sent troops, but first of all, seemingly completely disorganized and with no apparent guideline or further order, other than to "await orders" - and while they wait, they are disarmed and sent home/defected - equalling the force Ukraine sending simply dissolving as soon as it reaches the hot-spots.

I am still utterly confused at wtf Russians and Ukrainians mean by "nazi" and "fascist" also. I've seen footage of people disrespecting and cursing out the dead body of a Rigth Sector member, as well as Vice reports showing Right Sector being expelled in buses. Then I see people waving Stalin and USSR flags - WHY would Ukrainians celebrate Stalin!? Am I missing something!?
Then footage of a woman insisting that they are not nazis or fascists - and in the same sentence refering to Obama as a 'nigger' or some close equivalent.
Then one of the break-away leaders - I wikied him - and apparently he has been a member of a communist organization - as well as a neo nazi organization. What on earth...
THEN there were rumors of - in one of the break-away oblasts - militants looking up jewish people, handing them pampflets outlining an ultimatum to register themselves as jewish - as well as contradictory insistings from others in the same organization, that they never did such a thing. The pampflets are verified to exist, although who made them and why is being denied and contradicted.

What a fucking mess, I'm not gonna utter one more personal opinion about this, untill I understand what the hell is going on... untill then, I will merely observe :I
 
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For the news i hear.

it seems to me that Russia is not longer a communist country, but rather capitalist.
Still, those Russian would be seem want to join communist Russia, a country that doesn't exist any more.
On the Ukrainian side, it seems that they do referendum, but we aren't sure that everyone vote is respected. The vote on the current land is for independance, but then, they try to join Russia. Did people voted for this ?
Ukrainian gov ask for international help, but get tiny sanctions toward Russia.
 
naossano said:
For the news i hear.

it seems to me that Russia is not longer a communist country, but rather capitalist.
Still, those Russian would be seem want to join communist Russia, a country that doesn't exist any more.
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Eh, welcome to 1991 buddy :D You DO realize that the USSR dissolved long ago, yes? :D
The very definition of the Russian Federation was the abolishment of single party communist (or on-paper-communism) system :D Since then Russia has been a capitalist free-for-all, with all the reprecussions that brings.

naossano said:
On the Ukrainian side, it seems that they do referendum, but we aren't sure that everyone vote is respected. The vote on the current land is for independance, but then, they try to join Russia. Did people voted for this ?
Ukrainian gov ask for international help, but get tiny sanctions toward Russia.
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Oh, yes, we are sure: Non-Russian nationals are openly boycotting the referendums, and the international community deems them illegitimate. These are common farces, seen before in history, in many countries.
People DID vote for it - those who benefit from voting.

When it comes to the big, global issue here, the picture is simple and pragmatic:
1. Breach of sovereignty (Russian initiative)
2. "5th collumn" support, as in, Russia fuels pro-Russian militants. This was seen for example in the Bosnian war as well (Serbia fueling pro-Serbian militants in Bosnia, with both weapons and manpower).

So, these big-picture stories are not new. I am refering to the ideologies and symbolics used by the protesters: I am seeing communist symbols and nazi symbols in a big soup, and it confuses the hell out of me. In the end, I suspect that ideology is only on the surface, and that in the end it's only about pragmatic economics, to eat territory, and continue eating untill a physical hinder blocks the path. Russia will not stop untill it has to stop, and it has tested the water, and seen that it is safe - so far.

Maybe I've misunderstood what you were trying to say, and I haven't slept in a while, so if I fail to make sense, lemme know :D
 
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zegh8578 said:
I am still utterly confused at wtf Russians and Ukrainians mean by "nazi" and "fascist" also. I've seen footage of people disrespecting and cursing out the dead body of a Rigth Sector member, as well as Vice reports showing Right Sector being expelled in buses. Then I see people waving Stalin and USSR flags - WHY would Ukrainians celebrate Stalin!? Am I missing something!?
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Historical record always distorts what happened to favor one side of any given conflict. In the event of the Nazis and the Soviets, historical record has reduced them to childish renders of villains without any trace of the humanity that led them to their decisions or choices. Mind you, I'm a descendent of holocaust survivors and most of their immediate family were holocaust victims, so I'm not going to defend the actions of the German National Socialist party (Nazis) of the 1930s and 1940s. But it behooves people to recognize that Germans didn't flock to their ranks without good cause. Similarly, the Soviets are recognized historically by all of their crimes, and none of their accomplishments. I'm not pardoning Stalin for his political disappearings and his acts of genocide, but that doesn't mean he didn't accomplish wonderful feats alongside those terrible atrocities.

Russians want to go back to those days because of those wonderful feats. They want a new Stalin and they want a return to the USSR because those days saw many landmark achievements for their nation, they had stability, and many of them just remembered good things. They have very good reason to feel a longing for those days of old, because their country, in the very specific ways which they're presently displeased about, was in a much better state back then. That doesn't mean it's a perfect idea, of course, but here in the U.S. we allow Neo Nazis to have their demonstrations and speeches while they preach about "better times" of some fantasy bygone era, so why can't we let people in other countries equally say whatever they want to have done without instantly scorning them for saying something we thought was unexpected. I dunno, to me it just seems obvious that other countries on other ends of the world should NOT be held to the same standards or expectations as where I live, so it never bothers me when I hear what people want. What people DO, on the other hand...
 
SnapSlav said:
Historical record always distorts what happened to favor one side of any given conflict. In the event of the Nazis and the Soviets, historical record has reduced them to childish renders of villains without any trace of the humanity that led them to their decisions or choices. Mind you, I'm a descendent of holocaust survivors and most of their immediate family were holocaust victims, so I'm not going to defend the actions of the German National Socialist party (Nazis) of the 1930s and 1940s. But it behooves people to recognize that Germans didn't flock to their ranks without good cause. Similarly, the Soviets are recognized historically by all of their crimes, and none of their accomplishments. I'm not pardoning Stalin for his political disappearings and his acts of genocide, but that doesn't mean he didn't accomplish wonderful feats alongside those terrible atrocities.

Russians want to go back to those days because of those wonderful feats. They want a new Stalin and they want a return to the USSR because those days saw many landmark achievements for their nation, they had stability, and many of them just remembered good things. They have very good reason to feel a longing for those days of old, because their country, in the very specific ways which they're presently displeased about, was in a much better state back then. That doesn't mean it's a perfect idea, of course, but here in the U.S. we allow Neo Nazis to have their demonstrations and speeches while they preach about "better times" of some fantasy bygone era, so why can't we let people in other countries equally say whatever they want to have done without instantly scorning them for saying something we thought was unexpected. I dunno, to me it just seems obvious that other countries on other ends of the world should NOT be held to the same standards or expectations as where I live, so it never bothers me when I hear what people want. What people DO, on the other hand...
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Oh, I realize that, but I figured Ukrainians in particular would have a special thorn-in-the-side when it comes to Stalin. I saw others celebrating Lenin, and that makes more sense, imo, if they need a symbolic figurehead for a dream of a stable and powerfull USSR. When I think of Stalin+Ukraine, I think of mass starvation. Don't they?

I know that the historical versions are very simplified, and you can probably guess why - it has never been the "strong side" of "the masses" to keep track of a whole lot of gray-zones and details, and that is often what comes back to backlash later on, for example in the recruitment of young minds to nazi organizations. They learned in school that nazis are "pure evil", but then meet nazis online, who advocate animal protection and soft, nice stuff like that, and they think they've been misinformed and lied to, and these groups take careful advantage of this.
My own dad often gives my younger siblings the "quick and easy" version of politics and history, often bordering on pure propaganda, and it pisses me off... because he means well, but employs the laziest of methods, that have real possibilities of serious backfire (He once told them that George Bush owns Coca cola company -.-... I had to correct the damage, "You know... dad is a moron. But he means well... Let me explain -.-")

I guess, my confusion could be due to my own wish to see the two sides - soviet communism and german nazism - as more different than they really were, when both of them employed huge camps of starving skeletal beings, when we're talking "in practice", and to people who lived this, the difference isn't that big. Not talking about theoretical ideologies here, but the physical activities of those two countries.
 
SnapSlav said:
Russians want to go back to those days because of those wonderful feats. They want a new Stalin and they want a return to the USSR because those days saw many landmark achievements for their nation, they had stability, and many of them just remembered good things.
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I have a hypothesis on this. I think the people who wish for those days are the reason why many of the soviet block countries are still knee deep in corruption and have a pretty low level of culture. Most of the people that i heard reminiscing about those times are the ones who - liked the aspect of getting drunk on job every day, liked the aspect of stealing from the factories they worked in, liked the aspect of being told what to do by the government and not to do anything themselfs, liked the aspect being a part of something bigger, being proud of something (something that they didn't contribute to anything at all). Since in the Soviets pretty much everything that was not of basic necessity (like toilet paper, bananas etc. :|) was hard or sometimes impossible to get (this happens when you have a planned economy, planned by idiots), so you needed to have connections with the right people. If you didn't play the same flute the government was playing, you could pretty much forget about any kind of a career. So you roll in this kind of an environment for 50+ years and what you get is a society with very poor habits. You could see those poor habits on display in the early 90', when in all of these soviet block countries you had the same people with those same old connections pretty much privatizing and selling off everything they could get their paws on. The businessmen from the west were of course happy to oblige, buying whole fishing fleets for pennies.

As for Stalins achievements. They were pretty big, but i'm not sure that in a good way. The industrialization alone probably cost 15-20 millions lives or more. Many scientific achievements (many also...ehm... "borrowed" from other countries), many more gifted scientists and generally smart people killed off. A socialism society that was meant to make people equal... something that never happened...
 
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Not talking about the real thing since i've never been in a communist country, but in theory, a communist country could be a great system to live in, compared with being poor in a capitalist country.
In a communist country (in theory) you wouldn't be much poorer than you neighbour, you could work your lifetime in the same place, with no risk of unemployement, an economy handled by a government, supposed to invest in the country instead of shady self-serving international corporations, the idea of serving a greater picture.
The problem of communist, IMO is more in the way it was handled, that in the concept itself.
Not saying that the correct communist system is fitted for everyone, but for many, it would be a better life that the one they currently have.

The thing is, the communism was never (or rarelly) handled as intended, and the current Russia isn't even a communist country. They "expelled" the communist.
So if some ukrainian want to join Russia, for the communist ideals, they will be greatly disapointed.
 
naossano said:
The thing is, the communism was never (or rarelly) handled as intended, and the current Russia isn't even a communist country. They "expelled" the communist.
So if some ukrainian want to join Russia, for the communist ideals, they will be greatly disapointed.
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That is not really an issue. Nobody there believes Russia to be a communist country. But strong communist symbolism is being used by the protesters - my confusion was how all this symbolism seems to be used alongside nazi symbolism, and there seems to be confusion about the symbolism used (as in, my impression is that people are using these symbols, without realizing what they mean)

As for communism itself, I don't remember what comedian said it, but in essence it is "to share" :D And we all know how humans feel about sharing :D It has in fact been studied a bit, and young children are often the most positive when it comes to sharing for the sake of sharing, while as they grow older, they become much more.. "bitter" about it, and much more ready to see people excluded from the community. An adult human will have had much more effort spent on their own comfort, therefore much more unwilling to share this effort with others.

I have had this discussion with hardline far-rights people, who admitted that much of their sentiment was pure egoism - "It is MY money, and even if I had tons to spare, I would not share it!"

Speaking of communist symbolism, look up Transnistria, a break-away state in Moldova. They use communist symbols from the Soviet-era still, in their official coat of arms and such. I find that odd too :D
 
naossano said:
Not talking about the real thing since i've never been in a communist country, but in theory, a communist country could be a great system to live in, compared with being poor in a capitalist country.
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I think i would like a similar system myself (as i believe people who own more than 50 million dollars is not healthy to society), but it's pretty much a pipe dream if you look at all these "communist" countries. All of them could legitimately be called dictatorships, as there were never any equal rights or opportunities in those countries. All of them were built on violence, whereas i believe a utopian political/economical system based on socialism values could only be built by lifting the economy and culture of the society by a considerable degree before that. A state where free speech, arts etc. are forbidden will never achieve that - you cannot force people into something that they don't understand themself, they need to come to understanding why those ideals are beneficial on their own.
 
All these ideals become pipe-dreams.

And all of them are built on violence, like the French revolution :D Off with their heads, in with freedom! That's fair tho, that's how people roll. When the supressed revolt it is noble and beautiful violence, fit even for painting! But still as brutal, you can even increase the brutality, and still successfully represent it as even more rightful rage!

What's frustrating in all this, is that our VERY closest primate relative is the chimpanzee, which is similar in behaviour. It is violent and vengeful! Even sadistic - torturous hurt has been observed in nature!
Genetically we separated from the closest ancestor of the chimp about 5 million years ago, and the chimp has likely stayed pretty much unchanged since then (due to its preferable environment staying the same)
Our next closest relative... is the bonobo. They resolve their collective frustration with orgies, and public masturbation.

That could have been us.
Bonobos even walk bipedally much more than chimps.
 
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