Scientology?

[Lexx]

This all sounds so much like brainfuck. Is it so cool to be in a sect? Maybe I should found my own?

 

[Brother None]

I find it interesting how little people who jump at the chance to condemn Scientology have any interest in learning more about it when faced with a Scientologist.

Fear of knowledge, much?

 

[iii]

I find it interesting how little people who jump at the chance to condemn Scientology have any interest in learning more about it when faced with a Scientologist.

Fear of knowledge, much?

you AREN'T one of THEM, are YOU?

 

[Mord_Sith]

Yes, actually I do believe that a fiction writer, or anyone who concocts a religion in this day and age, is either certifiably unstable, or a con artist (Jesus with glasses FTW!)

I, in all honesty, think that humanity, as a species, has used religion as a crutch to explain the unknown so that we no longer fear it, even if the explanation is false, or ignorant.

However we are coming to a stage of development that we should start looking at our faiths and seriously question their existence, do we need them to explain why the sun is in the sky anymore? Do we need them to explain how we got here? Do we need them to explain what we should do with our lives?

To some, that answer is yes, to me, I am foolish enough to think that I know the answers for myself for the most part, and those that I don't know well hell I'll figure it out along the way.

As for the gene therapy to remove hostile elements from someone, it would have to be implemented to modify the person after they commit a crime, innocent until proven guilty is still the law after all, otherwise we'd all be senseless sheep with no drive to do anything.

Study of knowing, try study of knowledge, it'll get you further than believing that you're the only one that can help a crash victim rather than the paramedics. (Re: Tom Cruise Video where he acts all nutty)

As for the charity work, I have never heard of CoS putting money into anything, don't you think they'd plaster it onto the walls and whatnot about their charitable work in order to try and repair their media appeal?

When they start funding Doctors without borders, then talk to me, but self-serving charities, don't make me laugh.

I wouldn't be learning the teachings of Jesus because you know what, I wouldn't listen to someone who proclaimed themselves as the son of god, I'd be calling the padded wagon!

Let me put it to you this way, the bible hates me because I'm a bastard child, the mormon Bible hates me because I refuse to procreate, I just think the Jehovan bible is crazy, the Koran I have no bloody clue about, Buddhism is a neat idea but I have yet to see anyone return again due to karma points, and CoS hate me because I question my surroundings and everything that is told to me.

I'm stubborn as a mule and have one hell of a bad attitude if you set me off, and we can go back and forth about this all day.

I refuse most medication and I absolutely hate needles, something that pisses the blood banks off all the time because I'm -O bloodtype.

I am a royal pain in the ass and above all else, I'm a realist, I don't use fantasy and tomfoolery to try and explain the world, I want cold hard facts, and a book that's as spaced out as Scientology's teachings.

Bloody hell take a good retrospective look at some of this stuff, I'm well aware that some of it is probably propaganda or counter-propaganda but still.

Aliens coming to earth, killing off a large chunk of their civilization, and dumping their spirits into the Neanderthals?!?

Sounds like a 70-80's B movie!

So who's the hero of this storyline, who saves the spirits of these blokes, or the people whoever is less evil by the storyteller's perspective... oh I forgot, the writer himself, Hubbard.

I would seriously take two steps back and analyze everything you're being told by the CoS, rather than swallowing it up without thinking, and I mean don't just look it over as a Scientologist, if you can find an answer to why for every single item of faith including the donation amount, which sounds a hell of a lot like the old catholic church (I believe I made this parallel before...)

I mean SERIOUSLY why, not 'oh it's to charity' what charities, are these charities benefiting the CoS in any way aside from minor PR. Why do they go to such lengths as aliens, and space jets, and spirits that have inhabited humanity since the beginning of cohesive thought.

There's lots to question, and just blindly accepting it because there's nothing better doesn't cut the mustard, and I am a firm believer in actions speak louder than words, and the CoS constantly quashing free speech on the basis of 'copyright' is bullocks.

That's what I find most offensive about the lot, is that a religion that's name is derived from the word Science, the pursuit of true knowledge, quashing free speech and thought because it is or may be a dissenting opinion.

By the way, Tom Cruise is a bloody loon, and one person I would consider for the nuthouse, his recent Scientology video makes that abundantly clear, and if he's the spokesperson for the CoS, it certainly makes me wonder about the rest of the higher ups.

BTW BN, my first statement was a question about one of the things that I find silly, I'm actually looking for answers to some extent, yesh it's a tad barbed, simply because, well I find the whole bit about Scientology nutty.

The door is open, I won't become a believer, but at the very least there is potential for proving that it is legitimate and not a money-scam.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Fear of knowledge, much?

How's that? He hasn't really said anything other than his religion is the bestest and they're implying there's a conspiracy against them.

 

[Neamos]

If you wish to point out any specific claim i will happily address it.

Nah, it's okay I don't really care that much

Instead, tell me, what brought you into ScientologY? What were you before that? Did Tom Cruise have any influence on your decision to join the Scientologists? Do you believe in evolution? Science in general?
Are you offended about how the Hubbologists were portrayed in Fallout? Did you ever feel bad about killing them?

 

[Deleted member 53669]

Brother None Wrote:

I find it interesting how little people who jump at the chance to condemn Scientology have any interest in learning more about it when faced with a Scientologist.

Fear of knowledge, much?

It's easy to condemn something you know nothing about when everyone else already is.

Some vicarious and nonchalance attitude from not being exposed to something I guess.



Yoshi Wrote:

Like what? What other religion offers half of what Scientology does in terms of lifestyle improvement AND purification of the soul and mind?

Isn't that what most people call *Ahem* personal responsibility?

You know, you could do research and find answers yourself instead of joining an institution to do it for you.

No it isn't. May i ask how much you actually know of auditing? Many people hold a lot of silly ideas regarding it.

I know it's something you do too financial records, not to peoples minds.


Seriously though, yes it is. Your asked questions about your life to make amends with troubled feelings or thoughts. But Scientology uses technology and other useless devices as ritual for subjective retrospection, other than hallucinogenic drugs, pilgrimage, meditation, confession, or jerking off.

So? Fallout does not paint a very good picture of the Followers either or the Unity. These ideas can be compared to many other religions with far bigger reputations than my own. What has this got to do with anything?

No comment.

We STRONGLY support the use of modern, 'western' medicine. It works. Drugs exist that DO help serious psychological issues. What we dislike is psychological analysis beyond that required for diagnosis of serious conditions. This happens all the time and is wrong, unproductive and damaging.

You mean something like auditing? Well, you're in your own self-made version of the CoS if that's your attitude on the subject.

I do agree with you to an extent. As i have said, for me and MOST other Scientologists it is what you do that counts rather than what you read/believe.

Number 1: You mean like the paper trails of criminal activities in the CoS?

Number 2: Then why join or read apon the CoS in the first place if you are so wise?

The science in Scientology refers to the basic roots of the word. 'Study of knowing'. This can be applied to many different contexts, in the case of Scientology this is a largely spiritual one which has some practical ramifications.

It isn't doing a very good job then, since psychiatric medication does work where needed.


Latin: religion, ligo, "to bind together") A way of seeing, thinking, and acting inspired by questions about what things mean: ie Where did we come from?, What is our destiny?, What is true?, What is false?, What is my duty or obligation?, What is the meaning of suffering? ...


Philosophy is the discipline concerned with the questions of how one should live (ethics); what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics); what counts as genuine knowledge (epistemology); and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy



See, it's not really special.

Current research in genetics is starting to show their may be basic Scientifics reasons behind crime. Certainly detectable, perhaps even curable. If measures were designed based on this science it could be used to reduce crime levels. Would this be a good thing - yes. Would the policy be a good thing? Many, myself included would say no.

Agreed, but just because Scientology and you yourself believe that is basically the same as me converting to catholicism because I met a Catholic Pro-Life midget who also believes in gravity.

Do you believe you are dense and close-minded?

OOOOooo Mystic spooky babble.

 

[Ravager69]

As much as I would like to believe in a Uber-Being governing us all, I find it harder to believe with every passing day.

I'm just fucking tired of religions explaining stuff like:

-commiting sins is bad
-but why?
-because GOD SAYS SO and it will make him unhappy
-but why should I care?
-because if you don't you will SUFFER ETERNALY

Scientology is no diffrent, thus, not better and not worthy of attention. I don't need the same shit wrapped in diffrent paper. And after all, it's fucking retarded and doesn't try to answer basic question on human condition and existence. Just some shit about Xenu and previous lives. Please.

 

[Neamos]

ravager came here to set us straight and end the discussion. yoshi, your beliefs are dumb. atheism is the best. you better... wait for it... DEAL WITH IT.

EDIT: \/ D00d, I was sarcastic and openly smug about it, I don't really mean what I said in this post. Please answers my questions above, Yoshi.

 

[Mord_Sith]

Ok now that's unfair from both of you, I don't believe in what he believes, but that doesn't equate to the god given right to tear them down without even giving a bloody reason, simply saying that your beliefs are dumb without a supporting argument (aside from what someone else said) is simply filling space and really not worth the pixels they're written on.

It may not be worthy of attention to you Ravager, but obviously some people believe so very differently that they've shacked up with the Scientology Kool-aid man.

I believe it to be a crackpot organization, but that doesn't mean that I'm right, as for answering the question of the human condition, that's what religion is there for, it's to try and control the human condition, whether it's Jesus, Moses, Allah(Forgive my ignorance if I'm incorrect), Buddha, or Optimus Prime, it doesn't matter who the supreme being is as long as it controls the human condition.

Athiests have taken it upon themselves to control their own condition, sometimes failing, sometimes succeeding, those that cannot do it alone, look towards religion as a backbone.

Scientology however attempts to quash free speech through copyright laws (as it is based on a legally fictional novel by Hubbard whom his estate holds the copyright for anything Scientology based.) I also believe that Scientology is detrimental to it's followers as far as their 'donations' that are required to advance through the CoS.

 

[Brother None]

How's that? He hasn't really said anything other than his religion is the bestest and they're implying there's a conspiracy against them.

Well, you haven't really asked him to clear up any notions you have about his religion, have you?

Athiests have taken it upon themselves to control their own condition

Oh man, you'd think that, wouldn't you?

But I don't think that's the attitude most athiests have, at all. "Personal responsibility" is an unknown to most Westerners, as is any belief in controlling or working on their own mental state themselves. Easier to blame others.

But apropos, different discussion.

 

[Mord_Sith]

Hey BN, I said, some failing, some succeeding, and I'd like to think that me blaming myself for everything but Chernobyl is close a damn 'nuff don'cha think?

Ok so it may be my take on Athiesm, *shrug* it works for me and those that don't take on the mantle of responsibility when they're freeing themselves from Religion are asking for trouble, not to mention are usually knobs...

 

[fireb0rn]

I find it interesting how little people who jump at the chance to condemn Scientology have any interest in learning more about it when faced with a Scientologist.

Fear of knowledge, much?

not if it's placed cleverly in ytmnd format

 

[Paladin Solo]

Well, you haven't really asked him to clear up any notions you have about his religion, have you?

Oh please, being a 'brilliant movement looking only to help people ... against a close-minded and aggressive world' is enough to know how he views nonscientologists. Or maybe he should just word his post more/less carefully. There's a reason why I responded to his posts the way I did, not just to make myself fart.

'Lulz, we be against a close-minded aggressive world.'
'Lulz, strike me dense mind down now less I summon my orc armies against ye.'

How's that equal to being afraid of the almighty powerful tool of knowledge? While others ask about things such as psychiatry, medicine, and the diabolical Xenu, I wonder the merits of the organisation, except I present my posts in the same manner as he views us- a bunch of close-minded, aggressive, dense fools who are against his brilliant organisation set to help the world which offers more improvement AND purification of the soul and mind times ten than any other religion times ten.

He also claims to know MOST scientologists to know they live by the same principle as he. I wish I could claim that kind of thing about my fellow human beings and know I was right instead of just blowing air out of my ass.

Then there's the "most are lies, few are truth" part. Well I'm glad he has personally been involved in all of those cases to just clear that up for all of us. In the meantime, all those reports of discrediting, spying, infiltrating, and defrauding dissenters (to name a few) are just pure speculation and media lies. Oh I know, LIES I SAY. CONSPIRACY! I will hear no more insinuations about the CoS! Nothing bad happened! But that's okay, because only 'criminals' get in the way of Scientology. And I for one don't care what the CoS does with criminals, just like what my country's government's broad description of a terrorist is and what the Catholic Church considers herecy. No, I do not question anything that is clearly knowledge, as I'm not afraid of knowledge to question it. Seriously, I'm open to hearing his side of the story so I can better decide for myself instead of the countless, close-minded, aggressive insinuations made against his church. But until he decides he's tired of discussing psychiatry, medicine, me being biased because I've never been a scientologist (even in my past lives), and how Dianetics is not a fiction, I've got nothing to go by other than more bait to feed off from his posts.

All he has done is fail to see the point I'm making, which is if he wants to view the whole 'world vs. scientology' thing in the way he does, I'll give him an argument to make it real for him. Otherwise, I'm ready for him to respond to my points I raised about past-lives, auditing, exploitation, L. Ron's history, his own hypocritical views, the so-called brilliant organisation who is out to help everyone which by chance has a well-known criminal record (and yes, sources outside of ytmnd exist *gasp*), and the gullibility factor instead of just copping out with "you're dense" and something along the lines of "haha, media pwn." Yeah, KNOWLEDGE is just pouring out from his posts.

P.S.

Damn you to Hades for making me explain myself twice in this thread. You clever trixie, you.

 

[Jabu]

If Yoshi's for real, then this is a real opportunity for a confrontation with a Scientologist on some lurking questions on Scientology.

I can understand how the Church can be comforting, give you support, a sense of meaning and understanding of the world (which can be daunting), but don't you see how your vulnerabilities are being exploited? Leading a modest life, is a noble idea, but why give your money to people that don't really need it? Last I checked the lavish Scientology Chruches (palaces) aren't in praise of some diety you worship. So why this excess? Are others more privellaged to that wealth than you?

There's a tonne of weird things about Scientology. Hopefully you'll be here for some discussion.


For everybody else, or perhaps for Yoshi in particular, here's a (realy) great article from the Rolling Stone. I'd print it out, its a rather long read.

 

[Ravager69]

ravager came here to set us straight and end the discussion. yoshi, your beliefs are dumb. atheism is the best. you better... wait for it... DEAL WITH IT.

EDIT: \/ D00d, I was sarcastic and openly smug about it, I don't really mean it. Please answers my questions above, Yoshi.

I just have a religion crisis now, so I'm sick and tired of the debates on which religion is good and how bad am I not worshipping anything. The thing with religion is like that there is always a new one, better than previous ones, the only true stuff. That, and the fact that no religion is based on sanity or sense.

IMO, faith is for those who can't figure out the world themselves (which is most of the case), but should only give hints on what to do and how to behave. Be it Scientology or Christianity, they're just too narrow minded for me.

BTW yoshi could you give me some basic principles of Scientology for free or do I have to pay a fee to be allowed to hear them?

 

[Deleted member 53669]

Just like most teenagers on the internet, I have found a reason to take Scientology seriously, I found something on youtube.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=YMve2uOkvPw[/youtube]


I'm scarred. Tell me what to do Yoshi.

 

[Ravager69]

Holy shit! They're coming right for us!

 

[Yoshi525]

Yes, actually I do believe that a fiction writer, or anyone who concocts a religion in this day and age, is either certifiably unstable, or a con artist (Jesus with glasses FTW!)

I, in all honesty, think that humanity, as a species, has used religion as a crutch to explain the unknown so that we no longer fear it, even if the explanation is false, or ignorant.

However we are coming to a stage of development that we should start looking at our faiths and seriously question their existence, do we need them to explain why the sun is in the sky anymore? Do we need them to explain how we got here? Do we need them to explain what we should do with our lives?

There is a big, big difference between 'how' and 'why'. If you replace the former with the latter in your questions, the answer is clearly 'yes' for me. The fact that such a large percentage of the worlds population is religious speaks volumes really. Some people may not find a need for it, but many do. Anyway this isn't really anything Scientology related just religion in general which is a topic we could discuss forever.

As for the gene therapy to remove hostile elements from someone, it would have to be implemented to modify the person after they commit a crime, innocent until proven guilty is still the law after all, otherwise we'd all be senseless sheep with no drive to do anything.

That sounds nice and all but it simply is not true. Relating back to Psychology if there is reason to believe the mental state of someone will cause them to commit a crime then they can be detained and/or medicated against their will. What makes you think anything less would happen with gene tech?

Study of knowing, try study of knowledge, it'll get you further than believing that you're the only one that can help a crash victim rather than the paramedics. (Re: Tom Cruise Video where he acts all nutty)

There are million of scientologists in the world, we don't all have huge egos and super powers like Tom.

As for the charity work, I have never heard of CoS putting money into anything, don't you think they'd plaster it onto the walls and whatnot about their charitable work in order to try and repair their media appeal?

When they start funding Doctors without borders, then talk to me, but self-serving charities, don't make me laugh.

Trust me, the church does fund charitable work, loads of it. As far as i can tell you are not basing your view on it not doing on anything more than your dislike for it.

I wouldn't be learning the teachings of Jesus because you know what, I wouldn't listen to someone who proclaimed themselves as the son of god, I'd be calling the padded wagon!

Let me put it to you this way, the bible hates me because I'm a bastard child, the mormon Bible hates me because I refuse to procreate, I just think the Jehovan bible is crazy, the Koran I have no bloody clue about, Buddhism is a neat idea but I have yet to see anyone return again due to karma points, and CoS hate me because I question my surroundings and everything that is told to me.

Again, not really much to do with my faith rather than faith in general. You can say as much as you like how crazy you think religious belief is, that's fine i appreciate some people don't want religion in their lives. The fact is though billions of people do have a faith.

Aliens coming to earth, killing off a large chunk of their civilization, and dumping their spirits into the Neanderthals?!?

Sounds like a 70-80's B movie!

So who's the hero of this storyline, who saves the spirits of these blokes, or the people whoever is less evil by the storyteller's perspective... oh I forgot, the writer himself, Hubbard.

I would seriously take two steps back and analyse everything you're being told by the CoS, rather than swallowing it up without thinking, and I mean don't just look it over as a Scientologist, if you can find an answer to why for every single item of faith including the donation amount, which sounds a hell of a lot like the old catholic church (I believe I made this parallel before...)

As i have already said the VAST VAST majority of Scientologists would share your scepticism about some of the stories present by Hubbard. Similarly many Christians would question many stories in the Old Testament. This doesn't subtract from the religion itself, it just teaches a valuable lesson - don't take everything in the most literal sense. As much as people like to raise the issue of crazy Sci-Fi stories in Scientology, there is almost no mention of ay of it in any Scientology work. Yes, really.

That's what I find most offensive about the lot, is that a religion that's name is derived from the word Science, the pursuit of true knowledge, quashing free speech and thought because it is or may be a dissenting opinion.

You only say that because you don't have a faith. I know how it feels as i was in a similar position for many years. The world around us presents Science as a single objective truth. This may seem reasonable to you as it did, and still does to me. But truth me, this is only because that is the perspective our society presents us.

[/quote]How's that? He hasn't really said anything other than his religion is the bestest and they're implying there's a conspiracy against them.

Are you as dense as you appear to be or just selective in your ability to read?

Isn't that what most people call *Ahem* personal responsibility?

You know, you could do research and find answers yourself instead of joining an institution to do it for you.

I have done. The conclusion i reached was 'Scientology'. I was then asked if it is not possible there is a better option, my answer was rhetorically 'like what?'. Why try to answer the same question twice?

Seriously though, yes it is. Your asked questions about your life to make amends with troubled feelings or thoughts. But Scientology uses technology and other useless devices as ritual for subjective retrospection, other than hallucinogenic drugs, pilgrimage, meditation, confession, or jerking off.

It is very easy to simplify practices to the point where they sound devalued. You can describe auditing as 'getting asked questions' just as you can describe hallucinogenic drugs as 'seeing things that are not there', pilgrimage as 'travelling', mediation as 'deep thinking' etc. This does not devalue the practice for the actual people doing it though.

You mean something like auditing? Well, you're in your own self-made version of the CoS if that's your attitude on the subject.

No, not really. You will find my view on this is almost identical to that of the Church's in general.

Number 1: You mean like the paper trails of criminal activities in the CoS?

No. I don't.

Number 2: Then why join or read apon the CoS in the first place if you are so wise?

Erm what?

It isn't doing a very good job then, since psychiatric medication does work where needed.

*Woosh* Right, let me approach this from another angle for you. The Roman Catholic Church accepts that HIV is a problem in Africa. It also accepts contraception works. Yet it disagrees with use of contraception. Same idea. Oh and before you say comparison to the RCC is far from positive remember that, as i have said Scientology accepts in some serious cases psychiatric medication is needed.

See, it's not really special.

In another age the same may be said of science.

OOOOooo Mystic spooky babble.

And a simple question than even Paladin Solo should be capable of answering.

Scientology is no diffrent, thus, not better and not worthy of attention. I don't need the same shit wrapped in diffrent paper. And after all, it's fucking retarded and doesn't try to answer basic question on human condition and existence. Just some shit about Xenu and previous lives. Please.

Yes it does. As i have said very little emphasis is placed on Xenu etc. It is just far easier for critics to discuss these things.

Scientology however attempts to quash free speech through copyright laws (as it is based on a legally fictional novel by Hubbard whom his estate holds the copyright for anything Scientology based.) I also believe that Scientology is detrimental to it's followers as far as their 'donations' that are required to advance through the CoS.

The use of copyright laws is to protect. Many 'split off' groups which are indeed cons have been established base on Dianetics. It is perfectly possible to be an active Scientologist and NOT PAY A PENNY.

Ok, i am going to have to leave it at that for the moment as i have food to eat. Thank you for all your questions and the open mindedness of most of those asking them. I will try my best to answer Ravager69, Jabu's and Mord_Siths point later.

 

[Graphic]

There is a big, big difference between 'how' and 'why'. If you replace the former with the latter in your questions, the answer is clearly 'yes' for me. The fact that such a large percentage of the worlds population is religious speaks volumes really. Some people may not find a need for it, but many do. Anyway this isn't really anything Scientology related just religion in general which is a topic we could discuss forever.

Many people find the need for drugs and excessive consumption of alcohol, but those people have addictions.

However in general I don't view most religions as bad things, many do charitable work, I'm pretty much an atheist, but I still give to Christian's Children Fund because I believe in what they do.

To me, Scientology is just a scam or some kind of bizarre self help program. It's not a religion because the knowledge it claims to endow is only given at a price, which increases the longer you are a member.

As for this so called "charitable work" that Scientology does, you would think that it would be better publicized than it is, given the high social status of some of your members.

Behold your true GOD!