HoKa said:
Elaborate, please.
Scientology?
- Thread starter xdarkyrex
- Start date
Elaborate, please.
Madbringer said:HoKa said:
Elaborate, please.
Modern religion keeps many people who don't seem to grasp natural ethics inline with social vision, for one. It's a tool of marginalization for those who would otherwise be borderline sociopathic without its influence (aka dumb people).
It has given us a rich history of stories and society, many works of amazing art, an intimate vision of some dangers of the human condition, something for people in the depths of despair to cling to like a life boat, and a modern diversity of thought that truly highlights the mental diversity of mankind in a verry tangible way, holidays and traditions, many charities, and more. I'm not just talking about western religions, I'm talking about eastern religions, old religions, new religions, paganism, mysticism and mythology.
Oh yeah. Not to mention history of mindless violence, sodomy, bloodshed, torture, witch hunts, prejudice, oppression and cultural regression.
And it's the best material to make a story for a game\movie\book. It is also the biggest source of inspiration for the death metal bands.
Additionaly, people need a grand enemy, which religion usually provides, wether making it up, like satan, or being it (the biggest target for teenagers protests is religion)
Additionaly, people need a grand enemy, which religion usually provides, wether making it up, like satan, or being it (the biggest target for teenagers protests is religion)
Sorrow
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
While generally I agree with what you say, I'd like to notice that ethics in religion are rather weak.xdarkyrex said:Madbringer said:HoKa said:
Elaborate, please.
Modern religion keeps many people who don't seem to grasp natural ethics inline with social vision, for one. It's a tool of marginalization for those who would otherwise be borderline sociopathic without its influence (aka dumb people).
Most of people I know/knew didn't follow ethics of their own religion or even didn't understand them.
Also, borderline sociopaths usually use religion to justify their sociopathic ways - for example they want to murder all people that commit particular sin that they obsess about (usually promiscuity). They are usually the people that "see a splinter in their neighbour's eye but don't see a log in their own".
I agree, the knife cuts both ways.
I personally LOVE religion, even though I'm agnostic. I just think it is one of the greatest sources of inspiration for artistic work that can be found. Especially given the passion that it invokes. Basically exactly what ravager 69 said
I personally LOVE religion, even though I'm agnostic. I just think it is one of the greatest sources of inspiration for artistic work that can be found. Especially given the passion that it invokes. Basically exactly what ravager 69 said
Except that he probably meant BLACK metal, not DEATH metal. D:
Alright. It's undeniable that religions have been/are a source of inspiration, and yes, many good and beautiful things came out of it. The real question is, do those things outweight all the bad aspects of religions? That's all keeping in mind that religions aren't inherently evil, it's the people that warp and bend them to their own ends.
While i'm hostile towards organized religions, i sometime wonder if i'd really want to live in a religion free world. It might be boring.
One can only speculate as to what a world devoid of religion would be life, but I personally think that the natural fluctuation between order and chaos and then abck again ad infinitum is what keeps life and art and history interesting, religion is just one facet of order attempting to solidify within the chaos and only bringing about more chaos in the end. I think a world with religion is better than a world without, but then again I'm one of those with the ontological view that believes that we live in the best of all possible worlds.
Mord_Sith
Mildly Dipped
If this is the best, I want my money back, 'cause we got gypped something fierce darky.
War, Pestilence, Disease, and Death still ride constantly to the point where I wonder if their steeds are inexhaustible, on top of that we have almost constant hatred towards others through ether xenophobic or idealogical hatreds based solely on what the few say as it filters down to the many through religion.
No offense intended, but it's a pretty pathetic view to think that this is the best it can ever possibly be. If you were brought up in some fabulous mansion thingy I wouldn't be surprised about your statement but it's just plain shortsighted and foolish to believe it can't get any better.
As for a world devoid, we're progressing at a snail's pace towards that end, slowly the old institutions are falling on the wayside, however Scientology is operating on the 'old idea made new' principle to try and draw some of the die-hard dogma fans (not the movie!)
People can do whatever they bloody well want, I can't stop them from being stupid, as only a fool would try to change the world, however to just lie down and accept it personally because you don't want to shake the boat is just as stupid when it directly affects you.
War, Pestilence, Disease, and Death still ride constantly to the point where I wonder if their steeds are inexhaustible, on top of that we have almost constant hatred towards others through ether xenophobic or idealogical hatreds based solely on what the few say as it filters down to the many through religion.
No offense intended, but it's a pretty pathetic view to think that this is the best it can ever possibly be. If you were brought up in some fabulous mansion thingy I wouldn't be surprised about your statement but it's just plain shortsighted and foolish to believe it can't get any better.
As for a world devoid, we're progressing at a snail's pace towards that end, slowly the old institutions are falling on the wayside, however Scientology is operating on the 'old idea made new' principle to try and draw some of the die-hard dogma fans (not the movie!)
People can do whatever they bloody well want, I can't stop them from being stupid, as only a fool would try to change the world, however to just lie down and accept it personally because you don't want to shake the boat is just as stupid when it directly affects you.
What a narrow way to look at things.
Yes, I do believe that we do live in the best of all possible worlds, with all the hate and evil that happens. but then again, I have no qualms with hate and evil and inequality, I find them rather welcome in the world. I would rather live in a world with them than a world without them. And no I didn't come from a cushy life. I have actually been on the full spectrum of "cushiness" from upper class to lower calss, I've been hospitalized for malnutrition because I was too poor to feed myself, and I've had money to throw around like it's nothing. I stand by my statement, and if you see fit to try and make me think otherwise, I suggest you start by shedding the narrowness of half cocked idealism that plagues the minds of most folks. For every "good" thing you put in the world, you take out jsut as many if not more good things, remember that.
Yes, I do believe that we do live in the best of all possible worlds, with all the hate and evil that happens. but then again, I have no qualms with hate and evil and inequality, I find them rather welcome in the world. I would rather live in a world with them than a world without them. And no I didn't come from a cushy life. I have actually been on the full spectrum of "cushiness" from upper class to lower calss, I've been hospitalized for malnutrition because I was too poor to feed myself, and I've had money to throw around like it's nothing. I stand by my statement, and if you see fit to try and make me think otherwise, I suggest you start by shedding the narrowness of half cocked idealism that plagues the minds of most folks. For every "good" thing you put in the world, you take out jsut as many if not more good things, remember that.
Mord_Sith
Mildly Dipped
Holy shit Darky, and here I thought you'd just fallen off the cart, you've gone full steam back down the road.
Things can always be better Darky, just as they can always be worse, it's not idealism to say that the world can be better, it's fact, I have been outside of NA and spent two years in the south pacific, I know it can be a hell of a lot worse, however I know it can get a whole hell of a lot better too.
If it's narrow to hope that humanity has the ability to transcend it's failings then m'dear darky, I am as narrow as they come, I may think that the world is full of degenerates, but that doesn't mean that there isn't hope that they turn around.
I haven't felt what you call the 'cushiness' nor would I really want to, I'm uncomfortable in anything fancier than business casual and get extremely discomforted around people with money, it's just a reaction I have I don't know why.
'tis a sad world you live in if you think that people can't improve themselves unilaterally without harming eachother.
Things can always be better Darky, just as they can always be worse, it's not idealism to say that the world can be better, it's fact, I have been outside of NA and spent two years in the south pacific, I know it can be a hell of a lot worse, however I know it can get a whole hell of a lot better too.
If it's narrow to hope that humanity has the ability to transcend it's failings then m'dear darky, I am as narrow as they come, I may think that the world is full of degenerates, but that doesn't mean that there isn't hope that they turn around.
I haven't felt what you call the 'cushiness' nor would I really want to, I'm uncomfortable in anything fancier than business casual and get extremely discomforted around people with money, it's just a reaction I have I don't know why.
'tis a sad world you live in if you think that people can't improve themselves unilaterally without harming eachother.
No, I just don't think that what you consider 'better' is'nt actually better. It's just the same, but different. Something must first have a defined purpose for it to be better or worse. Are you going to take the ontological stance that you know what the defined purpose of our existence is? I advise against it, as that would be very arrogant of you.
Don't pretend to think you know what is worse or better, you only know what is worse or better to you, not for humanity, the world, the galaxy, the universe, time, space, and everything in between.
Don't pretend to think you know what is worse or better, you only know what is worse or better to you, not for humanity, the world, the galaxy, the universe, time, space, and everything in between.
Mord_Sith
Mildly Dipped
The point of life is to find the answer for yourself darky, I wouldn't be so foolish as to say my way works for everyone, the government does that enough for all of us. However to say that people are impossible of unilaterally improving themselves in order to transcend their flaws is also very arrogant.
I may not know what's best, but to just be complacent or refuse to better yourself with what you have without trying to achieve more is just the same as being dead.
I am not an idealist, I know people can better themselves by their own power, or need a bit of help, however we are digressing from the main point a bit so I'll try to curb it back into it.
Between order and chaos I think humanity has the ability on it's own without religion to manage to bring chaos to order, but it's a long and slow process that we are currently in the midst of, look at the decline in attendance to churches, it's almost unheard of to miss church 300 years ago, and agnostics / atheists would be stoned or burned at the stake in those days!
We are making exceptional progress disassembling a cultural structure that is no longer completely needed, however Scientology is impeding that progress significantly with it's dogma.
I may not know what's best, but to just be complacent or refuse to better yourself with what you have without trying to achieve more is just the same as being dead.
I am not an idealist, I know people can better themselves by their own power, or need a bit of help, however we are digressing from the main point a bit so I'll try to curb it back into it.
Between order and chaos I think humanity has the ability on it's own without religion to manage to bring chaos to order, but it's a long and slow process that we are currently in the midst of, look at the decline in attendance to churches, it's almost unheard of to miss church 300 years ago, and agnostics / atheists would be stoned or burned at the stake in those days!
We are making exceptional progress disassembling a cultural structure that is no longer completely needed, however Scientology is impeding that progress significantly with it's dogma.
Mord_Sith
Mildly Dipped
I would have to disagree on that as well darky, I'm beginning to wonder if you're taking the counterpoint simply because it instills people to argue as you're acting extremely out of your normal character these past few days.
You did NOT just say inequality is a good thing, oh I am SO gonna browbeat you if I see you ya mutt!
Order is good for populous control, chaos is good to allow people to feel like they're in control, however ultimately the balance must be maintained between them, that does not have an effect on the social constructs of religion, to simply say that chaos > order is just plain ignorant, I believe dreamfall put it best, however I'm sure they got the quote from elsewhere, the brighter the light, the deeper the shadows, one cannot exist without the other.
That doesn't mean that humanity as a whole cannot better itself, that simply means that everything must be balanced correctly for the whole to survive as such, that's called civilization.
If chaos was the only thing humanity subscribed to everyone in North America and Europe would likely still be anglo-saxon barbarians raiding the mainland.
However if it was pure order it would be a big brother scenario, and nobody wants that.
Do you see what I am trying to get at, to presume one side of balance is greater than the other is plain ignorant, but that doesn't mean that humanity as a whole can't trancend their flaws, balance everything to the grey.
You did NOT just say inequality is a good thing, oh I am SO gonna browbeat you if I see you ya mutt!
Order is good for populous control, chaos is good to allow people to feel like they're in control, however ultimately the balance must be maintained between them, that does not have an effect on the social constructs of religion, to simply say that chaos > order is just plain ignorant, I believe dreamfall put it best, however I'm sure they got the quote from elsewhere, the brighter the light, the deeper the shadows, one cannot exist without the other.
That doesn't mean that humanity as a whole cannot better itself, that simply means that everything must be balanced correctly for the whole to survive as such, that's called civilization.
If chaos was the only thing humanity subscribed to everyone in North America and Europe would likely still be anglo-saxon barbarians raiding the mainland.
However if it was pure order it would be a big brother scenario, and nobody wants that.
Do you see what I am trying to get at, to presume one side of balance is greater than the other is plain ignorant, but that doesn't mean that humanity as a whole can't trancend their flaws, balance everything to the grey.
I'm sorry maybe I did need more explanation. I believe in a proper balance between order and chaos. Inequality is a good thing, like I said. Why exactly does every need to be equal? That is not possible, and not natural. I think we live in the ideal balance between chaos and order. And in that, I do not thing that things can be better than they are. Tell me, what do you want? More order? What for? Order stifles art and progression. There is no creativity in order. I'm not just baiting you, I really do believe this. I'm only acting "out of character" because I feel like voicing myself the past few days, instead of passively watching and only leaving casual or joking remarks and debating over scholarly topics.
I'm trying to think of the best way to explain myself without going into pages of details, and I'm having a hard time because this is not the easiest topic and it is entirely counter-intuitive to the general vision of society. All your assumptions are made from the predisposition of someone who thinks in modern social ethics without attempting to find their roots and transcend their derived purposes. It's very much like you said, the brighter the light, the darker the shadows. No matter how bright that light, or how dim those shadows, one thing always remains true, a balance will always remain as human nature doesn't survive as a caved beast. All of the order of mankind isnlt what it says it is, it is only chaos in different form. Humanity as a whole is incapable of order, atleast not emp[irically observable order, it really depends largely on the frame of reference and scope of determination. Microscopically, humanity is incapable of chaos and works on an insane level of ordered action and reaction, but on a macroscopic level, we are chaos incarnate.
We do live in the best of all possible worlds, its just up to each person to come to terms with that and make the most of the perfection that they are handed. But then again, we are just a little too bit entropic for that. This is good, I would have it no other way.
I'm trying to think of the best way to explain myself without going into pages of details, and I'm having a hard time because this is not the easiest topic and it is entirely counter-intuitive to the general vision of society. All your assumptions are made from the predisposition of someone who thinks in modern social ethics without attempting to find their roots and transcend their derived purposes. It's very much like you said, the brighter the light, the darker the shadows. No matter how bright that light, or how dim those shadows, one thing always remains true, a balance will always remain as human nature doesn't survive as a caved beast. All of the order of mankind isnlt what it says it is, it is only chaos in different form. Humanity as a whole is incapable of order, atleast not emp[irically observable order, it really depends largely on the frame of reference and scope of determination. Microscopically, humanity is incapable of chaos and works on an insane level of ordered action and reaction, but on a macroscopic level, we are chaos incarnate.
We do live in the best of all possible worlds, its just up to each person to come to terms with that and make the most of the perfection that they are handed. But then again, we are just a little too bit entropic for that. This is good, I would have it no other way.
Mord_Sith
Mildly Dipped
Who said I was assuming, so far I've only stated that I hope for humanity to transcend it's own social and mental failures although I know the world is full of degenerates.
Do you honestly think that I don't look for the roots, please darky, we've argued far more hotly over other subjects where I was significantly against the common predisposition.
What I am saying is that I hope the individual manages to transcend their personal flaws, it doesn't mean it's going to happen, and I know that the balance is far closer to reality than my hope is, but that's the point of a hope, is that it is there to provide the thought that the impossible can happen for the better.
We do have order however, hence why social engineering exists, for every choice, there is a consequence, but also several other factors, social engineering attempts to map that and adjust people's minds to the liking of the adjuster, that's a bad thing in my opinion.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand, Scientology as a whole is singlehandedly trying to destroy everything human civilization has tried to accomplish as far as removing religious bias by slowly cutting out religion in general from affecting the state and effectively cutting it's power down to a paltry sum, however even that's slowly dwindling.
Scientology is the first religion in about 100 years that North American governments have been influenced by, it's a scary thought that we may go back to the days of holy wars if they progress further.
--EDIT--
To clarify the above statement about Scientology, I mean significantly influence.
Do you honestly think that I don't look for the roots, please darky, we've argued far more hotly over other subjects where I was significantly against the common predisposition.
What I am saying is that I hope the individual manages to transcend their personal flaws, it doesn't mean it's going to happen, and I know that the balance is far closer to reality than my hope is, but that's the point of a hope, is that it is there to provide the thought that the impossible can happen for the better.
We do have order however, hence why social engineering exists, for every choice, there is a consequence, but also several other factors, social engineering attempts to map that and adjust people's minds to the liking of the adjuster, that's a bad thing in my opinion.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand, Scientology as a whole is singlehandedly trying to destroy everything human civilization has tried to accomplish as far as removing religious bias by slowly cutting out religion in general from affecting the state and effectively cutting it's power down to a paltry sum, however even that's slowly dwindling.
Scientology is the first religion in about 100 years that North American governments have been influenced by, it's a scary thought that we may go back to the days of holy wars if they progress further.
--EDIT--
To clarify the above statement about Scientology, I mean significantly influence.
Madbringer said:
Anyone who thinks religion actually caused beauty or ugliness in humanity is either a nutjob or religious (or both)