see, that is discussing opinion.
Terrorist attack on French satirical magazine
- Thread starter Akratus
- Start date
I must say, I don't think that any masterminds behind this attack planned it as an attempt to silence anyone. To believe that an attack on a newspaper would do anything but enrage and entrench the ideals in question is a bit naive I think. In my opinion the attack was made in an attempt to cause a schism in Western society, to cause Muslim citizens to be marginalized - that is the intent of the attack. The rank and file of Islamist movements may not be the sharpest tacks in the drawer and may have any number of nonsensical reasons to commit terrorist attacks, but the high ups, whilst being very fucked up individuals, are not stupid. It's a lot easier to garner support for your cause from a marginalized people than it is from a content group who feels at place in their society.
Certainly, the paper was attacked for it's views - but I think the current reaction is exactly the one they wanted. They wanted to provoke rage and change the views of people on their Muslim compatriots. Sure, if freedom of speech is lessened as a result then they've won in a way I suppose, but if Muslims are treated and looked upon in a negative way as a result of terrorist attacks that had nothing to do with them and marginalized in society as a result, then that will be a true victory for the planners of these attacks.
Certainly, the paper was attacked for it's views - but I think the current reaction is exactly the one they wanted. They wanted to provoke rage and change the views of people on their Muslim compatriots. Sure, if freedom of speech is lessened as a result then they've won in a way I suppose, but if Muslims are treated and looked upon in a negative way as a result of terrorist attacks that had nothing to do with them and marginalized in society as a result, then that will be a true victory for the planners of these attacks.
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SnapSlav
NMA's local DotA fanatic
Figures that the delusional feminist would mark his return by making a COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TOPIC somehow related to women getting raped.
I feel like that video of the brit repeatedly pointing out that "one side" of "a certain issue" are constantly making it about women when it has nothing to do with women is suddenly more apt than ever.
In other news...
You said, naively, I must add, that Muslims are simply trying to get along with their fellow Europeans, and I pointed out how totally and absurdly untrue this is. My previous statements still hold that them being "Muslims" is still tangentially related, but that doesn't change that that's a fact, either. Whatever the reasons or the causes, these horrific things are still transpiring, and it's a travesty to simply attempt to wash that all away with a whimsical wave of the "we're all people" hand. Yes, we're all people. And people can be nasty, delusional, violent, and cruel, and plenty of modern Muslims (because they're people, just like us) are demonstrating this right now. Not "historically".
*Yes, of course conflicts within the last few years are rooted in age-old blood grudges and ethnic schisms, but that has no relevance when such sources of conflict haven't stopped other groups from reconciling their differences, so the events themselves are still of pivotal importance to highlight.
I feel like that video of the brit repeatedly pointing out that "one side" of "a certain issue" are constantly making it about women when it has nothing to do with women is suddenly more apt than ever.
In other news...
You sad fool. I wasn't talking about age-old conflicts. I was talking about things going on RIGHT NOW. Things less than 2 decades* old. Did you miss the part where I said "in the last 15 years" so gloriously that it might as well never have been specified? I very clearly stated this was a modern problem, just as I very clearly earlier stated the source of these problems is not nationality, ethnicity, or religion, but cultural mind-shaping on a grand, societal scale. Nationalistic slogans? No, I'm "throwing around" facts, which merely become highlighted by tragedies that have befallen nations I'm arbitrarily tied to by blood.
You said, naively, I must add, that Muslims are simply trying to get along with their fellow Europeans, and I pointed out how totally and absurdly untrue this is. My previous statements still hold that them being "Muslims" is still tangentially related, but that doesn't change that that's a fact, either. Whatever the reasons or the causes, these horrific things are still transpiring, and it's a travesty to simply attempt to wash that all away with a whimsical wave of the "we're all people" hand. Yes, we're all people. And people can be nasty, delusional, violent, and cruel, and plenty of modern Muslims (because they're people, just like us) are demonstrating this right now. Not "historically".
*Yes, of course conflicts within the last few years are rooted in age-old blood grudges and ethnic schisms, but that has no relevance when such sources of conflict haven't stopped other groups from reconciling their differences, so the events themselves are still of pivotal importance to highlight.
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Bit vitriolic over on this side of the fence isn't it?
TIL Kilus is a delusional feminist.
SnapSlav
NMA's local DotA fanatic
Nope. =P
I thought about making a tongue-in-cheek joke by calling you an oikaphile for feeling the opposite of "the grass in always greener on the other side", but then I felt that was unnecessary. But still, imagine that I said something clever and witty and that it made you smile for a fraction of a second. Yeah...
I made a general statement about Muslims just being people living next to other people, because that's true. See: 44 million Muslim Europeans. The fact that there are ethnic tensions in the Balkan going back centuries does not change that.
The "centuries past" was specifically in reaction to your bringing up "millions" of Christians being murdered around Albania. And talking about violence in that region as unidirectional is inaccurate and ahistorical.
Yeah Alec! There is violence in this country! 85 milion people! And not all of them can life peacefully together! I am sooooooooooooooooooooo shocked right now! I am sure Germany will be adobting the Sharia in a few days and then it will be all over. We are dooomed! DOOOMED!
No wait ... those are punks. Not islamists. Hmm. I must have forgotten those hysterical warnings by everyone of anarchists taking over Germany creating their own state. Oh yeah! Now I remember, that is because no one was seriously spreading such nonsense.
AH! But it must be those than! Those look like crazy muslims! Oh ... no they are not ... its some neo-nazis which run around with baseball bats and the police almost shoot them just to keep the protesters save.
But wait, wait, wait, WAIT(!), maybe we have to just digg deeper, getting into the past. There MUST be some danger from the Islam. There simply must be! There it is! ... Oh, no, it was the police using their clubs at German protesters and even shooting one of them - Benno Ohnesorg, which lead in the end to left wing terrorism
What do you say? There have been also countless of incendiary attacks over the last 30 years on shelters for refugees/immigrants by neo-nazis/right wing nutjobs? How comes? Isnt the biggest danger coming from the Islam right now? Maybe there are some bigger fish to fry than this few crazy Islamists. Like how there are still millions of underpaid workers.
Also, what is with this fucking smiley by yours, do you feel some kind of accomplishment when such things happen so that you can prove to your self and the world how incredible violent the Islam is and how wrong the rest of us is?. I know that you're an cynical person, but seriously. You are in my opinion crossing right now a line here. This isnt some kind of penis fight. We are after all talking about real people here. The Islam can be violent? OMG! If it strokes your ego so much, here, I admit it! It can be violent! It can be dangerous. It can lead to extremism. Just like many other political and religious views.
Seriously Alec. What is wrong? I am genuiely curious. Where is this resentiments and huge negativity against the Islam coming from. Have they tortured you as child? Have they ever done something to you? I mean like have they ever physically or mentally harmed you?
I am not even talking about your nation here. Maybe it is full of Islamic warriors which are out there with the only target to get you. What do I know. But why are you so adamant to prove me how Germany is having this huuuuuuuuuuge Islam problem. Did I ever said that we do not have to deal with radical views?
Oh. Wait. let me google something quick. Is this what you're talking about?
Here man. Why don't you try to look outside of the typical media garbage for once. The really interesting part stats at 16:00
Clash of civilisations, does that ring any bells?
What do you honestly think is the bigger problem in Germany, the violence from radical right wing views in Germany, or the Sharia?
Alec, you might be this awesomesoze english teacher/academic. But stop to fucking tell me what the issues of Germany are. Because I am sorry to say it this way, but you have no fucking clue.
No wait ... those are punks. Not islamists. Hmm. I must have forgotten those hysterical warnings by everyone of anarchists taking over Germany creating their own state. Oh yeah! Now I remember, that is because no one was seriously spreading such nonsense.
AH! But it must be those than! Those look like crazy muslims! Oh ... no they are not ... its some neo-nazis which run around with baseball bats and the police almost shoot them just to keep the protesters save.
But wait, wait, wait, WAIT(!), maybe we have to just digg deeper, getting into the past. There MUST be some danger from the Islam. There simply must be! There it is! ... Oh, no, it was the police using their clubs at German protesters and even shooting one of them - Benno Ohnesorg, which lead in the end to left wing terrorism
What do you say? There have been also countless of incendiary attacks over the last 30 years on shelters for refugees/immigrants by neo-nazis/right wing nutjobs? How comes? Isnt the biggest danger coming from the Islam right now? Maybe there are some bigger fish to fry than this few crazy Islamists. Like how there are still millions of underpaid workers.
Also, what is with this fucking smiley by yours, do you feel some kind of accomplishment when such things happen so that you can prove to your self and the world how incredible violent the Islam is and how wrong the rest of us is?. I know that you're an cynical person, but seriously. You are in my opinion crossing right now a line here. This isnt some kind of penis fight. We are after all talking about real people here. The Islam can be violent? OMG! If it strokes your ego so much, here, I admit it! It can be violent! It can be dangerous. It can lead to extremism. Just like many other political and religious views.
Seriously Alec. What is wrong? I am genuiely curious. Where is this resentiments and huge negativity against the Islam coming from. Have they tortured you as child? Have they ever done something to you? I mean like have they ever physically or mentally harmed you?
I am not even talking about your nation here. Maybe it is full of Islamic warriors which are out there with the only target to get you. What do I know. But why are you so adamant to prove me how Germany is having this huuuuuuuuuuge Islam problem. Did I ever said that we do not have to deal with radical views?
Oh. Wait. let me google something quick. Is this what you're talking about?
So the police (Karina Sadowsky) says there are still no informations about why, or who did it. I see. But yes. Let us all do the right thing. And jump to conclussions and ignore all the right wing violence that's happening FOR DECADES(!) now. And a lot of that SHIT(!) propaganda that is thrown around in the media.
Here man. Why don't you try to look outside of the typical media garbage for once. The really interesting part stats at 16:00
Clash of civilisations, does that ring any bells?
No Alec. It doesnt. Germany has no problem with the Islam. Germany has problems with extremists - like shown above. With lunatics. Idiots. Criminals. Just like every god damn nation on this planet. But the Islam? As religion? No. Absolutely not. from those 2.5% Muslims that live here? Pretty much most of them live peacefull lives you know. So I am not sure what your point is ... I mean we have also christians doing crazy things here, killing sometimes people or beeing violent. Should I assume now that Germany has issues with christianity?
What do you honestly think is the bigger problem in Germany, the violence from radical right wing views in Germany, or the Sharia?
Alec, you might be this awesomesoze english teacher/academic. But stop to fucking tell me what the issues of Germany are. Because I am sorry to say it this way, but you have no fucking clue.
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Attacks on mosques and Muslim businesses across France: not a peep from alec. One attack on a newspaper in Germany: alec jumps in to attack Muslims.
Cyberfiend
First time out of the vault
You dragging completely unrelated things into the discussion? Why do you only go back that far in history anyway?
All religions hurt me mentally. I am glad, though, that you make the distinction between race and religion, which is a rare occurence when talking to extreme leftists. According to their narrow-minded worldview someone who heavily criticizes religion is usually a racist. So bravo on that one, you're slowly but surely learning how to use language the way it's supposed to be used.
Unfortunately for you I wouldn't peep if churches or synagoges or buddhist temples were attacked either. One religion attacking another is one of those moments I buy popcorn for. If one religious idiot thinks he should bomb another religious idiot's house of worship, why the fuck should I care? Religions are lies which should be under attack constantly until logic wins.
If an organized lie, whatever organized lie it is, resorts to violence to silence truth and to shackle freedom, then I will jump in to attack that lie as best as I can.
I feel so sad that I need to resort to infant-directed speech (aka babytalk) to explain things to you guys. But hey, if that is what it takes, that's what I'll do.
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Well now we obviously see that the "real" problem with "Western" society is Muslims, and not folks like alec.
SnapSlav
NMA's local DotA fanatic
And it was your candor in relation to that general statement I found so flourishingly callous and vulgar, because of how it embraced the ignorance of all generalizations, and how you chose to cling to that quality of your statements and your position in your defense of that general statement. Personal experience simply provided me an avenue to see it for the bullshit it was immediately, otherwise I would have had to learn about it through some other means.
Whatever, alecophobe. Sue me. I dare you.
I would call refusing to see the humanity of Muslims because of bidirectional ethnic tensions in the Balkans a pretty callous and vulgar view of humanity, yes.
If you wanted to make the point that sometimes, violent conflicts split across religious lines too, then sure. That's what you seemed to be doing in your response post. To take that as a refutation of the concept that Muslim Europeans, and Muslims across the world, are not just human beings like anyone else -- living their lives like anyone else, with similar problems and similar problematic behaviors as everyone else -- that's just odd.
If you wanted to make the point that sometimes, violent conflicts split across religious lines too, then sure. That's what you seemed to be doing in your response post. To take that as a refutation of the concept that Muslim Europeans, and Muslims across the world, are not just human beings like anyone else -- living their lives like anyone else, with similar problems and similar problematic behaviors as everyone else -- that's just odd.
The Vault Dweller
always looking for water.
I'm...quite surprised. I mean I know that's what they should do, but it still strange to see.
Also no I know not to stereotype it's just knowing most of the Arab nations don't seem to take part in foreign affairs I'd think they'd be neutral when anything happens in another country especially one so different.
Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
No Man
Gore Bag > Meat Bag
Well, alec makes pretty good comics, so you have to understand the moral dilemma here. I'd say alec is less of a problem, but I'll admit I'm biased, because his cynical reasoning reminds me of my childhood. Or maybe it's because the proposition to attack all religion sounds pretty fun. If we're gonna do that, I call dibs on Pastafarians. I'll be conducting the attack by eating Italian food. Would it still count if I ate lasagne? It's mostly the same ingredients.Sander said:
Yes, that is the point though, isnt it? Mocking people is always easy, particularly when their behaviour is almost on the level of cartoonish evil villains. Like ISIS, but ISIS is not the Islam as whole.
But the simple truth is, that our world is not just made of black and white. We as European nations have not licenced logic and reasoning and the Arabian world/Muslims of this world the right for unreasonable violence.
I mean what the fuck, the recent past alone has proven more then once that given the chance the people in Europe can be just as biggot and idiotic like any radical Muslim. France in Rwhanda? Germany in WW2? The US in Vietnam, Russia/Soviets in Afghanistan. The Neutral swiss is so neutral that they take everyones money, be it from drug lords, jewish gold from nazis or black money. People in Germany never really reflect upon them self if the buisness we do with questionable regimes like China or Iraq (with Sadam in the past) eventually lead to the death of thousands of people.
Are we Euro-tards really so arrogant in our thinking to believe that our way of life is the best way and that we can simply export our form of democracy without other nations holding the mirror infront of us?
Do we really just want to say, "Because Muslims" and that's it? And you accuse me of using weak rhetoric. You are the one with the academic education here. Try some rational thinking for once.
We can do something against the extreme direction of the Islam. And we have to do something. I agree with that. Sure. But what I experience everyday are not radical Muslims but xenophobic people in the middle class, a growing discrimination of minorities and aggression in some parts of Germany and racist opinions becoming socially acceptable. A hysteria that is deliberately spurred on by the mainstream media.
Sorry that I think that I have more clue about Germany than you do. Because I live here. Because I see and interact with the common people here on a daily basis, which also includes Muslims. Seriously, I am not trying to teach your Grandmother how to suck eggs either, and I do not want to tell you how things are in Belgium. And I am not calling you some right wing supporter because of your opinion either, because I think you're not a racist. And I don't consider my self a leftist.
I see Muslims as what they are. As people. They are not the worse human beings and we in the west with our European values are not so much above everyone else that we can judge everyone and everything, particularly when the history has shown often enough that we tend to fuck up the nations over and over again where those radical Muslims come from. If we feel good enough with selling weapons to everyone of those fuckers down there, than we have also to deal with the consequences. That simple.
I see religions not as inherently evil or bad just as how I don't see a sword or gun as inherently evil or bad. It depends on what you do with it. If that is some leftist opinion. So be it. Than I am an leftist for you.
In all seriousness, I have no fucking clue what your political alignment is and honestly that means not much to me anyway. Hence why I would not seriously get the idea to push you in any political corner. To really know what you think and why you think the way you do would require a lot more interaction and communication. This is a Fallout forum afterall. And you made it more than once clear that you are not here to be buddies with anyone of us.
But here is the catch. We have to do this both ways. We are a democracy. At least in Germany. And a self respected democracy has to simply endure such attacks, that is the only way how to correctly deal with it. Punish those that are responsible, yes. But we can not answer violence with unreasonable violence or draconian measures and xenophobic hate, from my feelings I would say France has much stricter stances and laws compared to Germany, yet it didnt prevent any of those attacks.
So, what do you propose? Should we completely prohibit or heavily restrict the Islam? Should we tear down Mosques? Blood for Blood, eye for eye? Should we keep cameras and microphones in every Mosque so we can follow each and every prayer. I hear a lot of complaining from you, but seriously, what would be your ultimate solution, the Alec way of saving democracy from the terrible curse that is religion. I don't even demand from you to stand up and do something, you are after all just as lazy as I am. But I am sure you have SOME opinion on that matter. Or is, Because Muslims! all we will hear from you in the future?
All I am saying is we should keep a sense of proportion here. I would gladly take up arms with you if I feel that our freedom and our rights are seriously threatened and I support papers like Charley and their rights completely, I don't have to agree with it, but that is the beauty of our society, we can support each other without beeing dacor and satire has to be protected like every other platform for spech. But I simply don't see how 2 or 3 lunatics can seriously tear down this whole society of ours, just as how Brevik was not the end of Europe or Sweden. And you do have to simply agree that if you make statements with the intention to aggravate a very militant group of people, that you step on dangerous terrain,
Again, when I talk about the danger of Islam, I am only talking about Germany, maybe your nation is more fragile. No clue! The German government survived the 1960s, the left wing terrorism, the anarchy of the punks, the Oil Crisis, the Munich massacre. And it will also survive this wave of extremism.
But the simple truth is, that our world is not just made of black and white. We as European nations have not licenced logic and reasoning and the Arabian world/Muslims of this world the right for unreasonable violence.
I mean what the fuck, the recent past alone has proven more then once that given the chance the people in Europe can be just as biggot and idiotic like any radical Muslim. France in Rwhanda? Germany in WW2? The US in Vietnam, Russia/Soviets in Afghanistan. The Neutral swiss is so neutral that they take everyones money, be it from drug lords, jewish gold from nazis or black money. People in Germany never really reflect upon them self if the buisness we do with questionable regimes like China or Iraq (with Sadam in the past) eventually lead to the death of thousands of people.
Are we Euro-tards really so arrogant in our thinking to believe that our way of life is the best way and that we can simply export our form of democracy without other nations holding the mirror infront of us?
Just because I feel that Germany has bigger problems than the Islam? By the way the nation where I have grown up. That I feel the Islam sees here, again in GERMANY an unproportional amount of attention while there are a lot more serious problems, like poverty, particularly among elderly people and with children, the growing gab between the middle class and the under class, where people have to fall back on support from the government despite of working between 45 hours per week.
Do we really just want to say, "Because Muslims" and that's it? And you accuse me of using weak rhetoric. You are the one with the academic education here. Try some rational thinking for once.
We can do something against the extreme direction of the Islam. And we have to do something. I agree with that. Sure. But what I experience everyday are not radical Muslims but xenophobic people in the middle class, a growing discrimination of minorities and aggression in some parts of Germany and racist opinions becoming socially acceptable. A hysteria that is deliberately spurred on by the mainstream media.
Sorry that I think that I have more clue about Germany than you do. Because I live here. Because I see and interact with the common people here on a daily basis, which also includes Muslims. Seriously, I am not trying to teach your Grandmother how to suck eggs either, and I do not want to tell you how things are in Belgium. And I am not calling you some right wing supporter because of your opinion either, because I think you're not a racist. And I don't consider my self a leftist.
I see Muslims as what they are. As people. They are not the worse human beings and we in the west with our European values are not so much above everyone else that we can judge everyone and everything, particularly when the history has shown often enough that we tend to fuck up the nations over and over again where those radical Muslims come from. If we feel good enough with selling weapons to everyone of those fuckers down there, than we have also to deal with the consequences. That simple.
I see religions not as inherently evil or bad just as how I don't see a sword or gun as inherently evil or bad. It depends on what you do with it. If that is some leftist opinion. So be it. Than I am an leftist for you.
Of course its nonsense. Glad that we agree at least on something. By the way. If you call me an extreme leftist would you allow me to call you an extreme rightwing in return? Fair is fair, I mean if we already start to throw labels at each other without knowing anything about each other, than we should do it at least like savages.
In all seriousness, I have no fucking clue what your political alignment is and honestly that means not much to me anyway. Hence why I would not seriously get the idea to push you in any political corner. To really know what you think and why you think the way you do would require a lot more interaction and communication. This is a Fallout forum afterall. And you made it more than once clear that you are not here to be buddies with anyone of us.
Absolutely! I do agree with with this 100%!
But here is the catch. We have to do this both ways. We are a democracy. At least in Germany. And a self respected democracy has to simply endure such attacks, that is the only way how to correctly deal with it. Punish those that are responsible, yes. But we can not answer violence with unreasonable violence or draconian measures and xenophobic hate, from my feelings I would say France has much stricter stances and laws compared to Germany, yet it didnt prevent any of those attacks.
So, what do you propose? Should we completely prohibit or heavily restrict the Islam? Should we tear down Mosques? Blood for Blood, eye for eye? Should we keep cameras and microphones in every Mosque so we can follow each and every prayer. I hear a lot of complaining from you, but seriously, what would be your ultimate solution, the Alec way of saving democracy from the terrible curse that is religion. I don't even demand from you to stand up and do something, you are after all just as lazy as I am. But I am sure you have SOME opinion on that matter. Or is, Because Muslims! all we will hear from you in the future?
All I am saying is we should keep a sense of proportion here. I would gladly take up arms with you if I feel that our freedom and our rights are seriously threatened and I support papers like Charley and their rights completely, I don't have to agree with it, but that is the beauty of our society, we can support each other without beeing dacor and satire has to be protected like every other platform for spech. But I simply don't see how 2 or 3 lunatics can seriously tear down this whole society of ours, just as how Brevik was not the end of Europe or Sweden. And you do have to simply agree that if you make statements with the intention to aggravate a very militant group of people, that you step on dangerous terrain,
Again, when I talk about the danger of Islam, I am only talking about Germany, maybe your nation is more fragile. No clue! The German government survived the 1960s, the left wing terrorism, the anarchy of the punks, the Oil Crisis, the Munich massacre. And it will also survive this wave of extremism.
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@No Man
I'm not a problem at all. But I do think that people like Sander and Crni are because they delude the rest of the free world. People like them are so desperate to believe that all of the problems in the world are of our own making, and if we could just behave better internationally and divide the riches of the world equally, other people will treat us better. To them it's all a matter of more and better education, more affirmative action, more censorship at home and odd concepts like 'better taste', 'more respect' ... Do all that and you'll see that all religions are intrinsically benign. And this is just not true. I'm saying that (what people like Sander and Crni call) muslim fundamentalists are actually giving us a very plausible version of islam. Because of the Qu'ran, which is deemed infallible by all muslims (contrary to, for instance, the Sunnah, which some muslims reject as a fabrication and isn't nearly as dogmatic). Take, for example, the issue of apostates. There is no debate going on in the muslim world about what should be done with apostates because the Qu'ran clearly states they should be killed. Period. There is no school, no branch, no cult of islam that goes: 'Oh no, we accept aposatsy, we have no problem with that whatsoever.' That simply does not exist. And that's a huge problem. A problem (amongst a boatload of other religious problems) which needs to be solved by muslims. And people like Sander and Crni are not exactly helping them by lying about the nature of their religion. Or by calling people who are aware of these problems names that don't make any sense whatsoever. I'll just as quickly attack Judaism or Christianity, and I do, but the thing is that these religions did reform and most of their followers interpret their holy writings in a way that is compatible with life in the 21st century. No so with islam. The teachings of Muhammed, the conquering warlord who spread his faith with the sword, and was quite successful at doing so I should add, are not misinterpreted by muslim terrorists. It is an interpretation the Qu'ran allows without having to bend or break any muslim rules. It's not far-fetched and it's not something that isn't islam, like some people would have you believe. And that is extremely worrysome.
@Crni:
tl;dr
I'm serious, man: briefness is bless. All I read was that you agree 100% with me, so I'm glad we solved that pickle.
I'm not a problem at all. But I do think that people like Sander and Crni are because they delude the rest of the free world. People like them are so desperate to believe that all of the problems in the world are of our own making, and if we could just behave better internationally and divide the riches of the world equally, other people will treat us better. To them it's all a matter of more and better education, more affirmative action, more censorship at home and odd concepts like 'better taste', 'more respect' ... Do all that and you'll see that all religions are intrinsically benign. And this is just not true. I'm saying that (what people like Sander and Crni call) muslim fundamentalists are actually giving us a very plausible version of islam. Because of the Qu'ran, which is deemed infallible by all muslims (contrary to, for instance, the Sunnah, which some muslims reject as a fabrication and isn't nearly as dogmatic). Take, for example, the issue of apostates. There is no debate going on in the muslim world about what should be done with apostates because the Qu'ran clearly states they should be killed. Period. There is no school, no branch, no cult of islam that goes: 'Oh no, we accept aposatsy, we have no problem with that whatsoever.' That simply does not exist. And that's a huge problem. A problem (amongst a boatload of other religious problems) which needs to be solved by muslims. And people like Sander and Crni are not exactly helping them by lying about the nature of their religion. Or by calling people who are aware of these problems names that don't make any sense whatsoever. I'll just as quickly attack Judaism or Christianity, and I do, but the thing is that these religions did reform and most of their followers interpret their holy writings in a way that is compatible with life in the 21st century. No so with islam. The teachings of Muhammed, the conquering warlord who spread his faith with the sword, and was quite successful at doing so I should add, are not misinterpreted by muslim terrorists. It is an interpretation the Qu'ran allows without having to bend or break any muslim rules. It's not far-fetched and it's not something that isn't islam, like some people would have you believe. And that is extremely worrysome.
@Crni:
tl;dr
I'm serious, man: briefness is bless. All I read was that you agree 100% with me, so I'm glad we solved that pickle.
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