The Guns and Ammo Thread

Phil, if you see that hog in the woods and you run, you'll only die tired. Hogs can run much faster than you. 30-35mph in short bursts and from zero to 35mph in 10 seconds. Otherwise known as quick. Described as "being shot out of a cannon fast".


Here is a real good sized boar a buddy of mine shot.

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You'll notice his rifle of choice to hunt hogs with in the picture. It might look like an AR-15, but this one fires the .458 socom round. A much bigger round with much greater take-down power, which comes in handy when hunting a 350lbs + wild boar that would like to kill you and has the tools to do just that rather easily.

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Always bring enough bullet!

If you compare the rifle to the size of the boar, you'll be able to deduce this hog is over six feet long. Why would you want a semi-auto rifle to hunt this hog? Because a quick follow up shot if you miss while he is running at you at 20mph might make the difference between you eating him for dinner or him eating you for dinner.
 
If 385lbs of "fuck you" comes running at you, fuck semi. I'm going full auto. ;)

But all kidding aside, you'd indeed want something with the power to punch through the skull and the protective plates on its shoulders.

This is probably where a Browning BAR in a heavy caliber would do quite well.
 
since its military grade amunition, would that not be kinda overpowered since the bullet would rather penetrate the animal. Not a pro here, just what I know from documentaries about hunting.
 
SuAside said:
If 385lbs of "fuck you" comes running at you, fuck semi. I'm going full auto. ;)

But all kidding aside, you'd indeed want something with the power to punch through the skull and the protective plates on its shoulders.

This is probably where a Browning BAR in a heavy caliber would do quite well.
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My preferred firearm for hunting them is my Ruger Blackhawk single action in 45 long colt. It's more sporting that way. :crazy:

Usually I stick with Hornady ammo, but they don't have a cartridge that matches this round for performance against a large charging beastie.

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The jacketed solid core has better skull penetration from my experience. I'm getting about 1050fps out of my 5.5" barrel on the Ruger.

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@ Crni - what is "military grade ammunition"? What is "overpowered"? The entire idea is to have as much penetration as possible with as large a wound channel as possible to stop the boar from eating you.

My buddy who uses the .458 socom round likes to hunt from a treestand and routinely tries to shoot two or three pigs with one bullet when he can get them to line up over corn he has put out as bait.

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@Phil: I appreciate the compliment. The first time I saw a Kino, I thought 'God, that is ugly'. Then I thought about it and said 'God, that is genius!'. You get a mid-length sight radius, a permanently staked front sight base that isn't going to work loose and fall off, and more rail real estate for bolting things on if you so choose.

@Cmi: I am assuming you don't have much experience with hunting or the AR-15. If you do, then forgive me. When hunting, you want something that is going to penetrate 6-8" of hide, dense muscle, and bone to get to the vital organs of most game animals. They are a lot denser than people. Ideally, you want a bullet with a high degree of kinetic energy, that will hold shape long enough to penetrate the hide, muscle, and bone, then expand very quickly to give maximum surface area in which to create a wound cavity and depart all that kinetic energy to the vital area. The idea is to stop the animal right away. When you don't, you have to go and find your dinner from where it ran off before realizing it is food. With wild boar and aggressive game at close ranges, you also want them to stop before they take a piece of you.

Military grade ammunition, such as M805/SS-109, which is a 5.56 round with a steel penetrator core, does very good at the penetration part. It doesn't do so hot at the expansion part, and once it travels through that much hide muscle, it doesn't have a whole lot of kinetic energy left. Once velocity falls off, it doesn't have enough mass to keep energy levels at a sufficient level. Military grade ammunition is designed to serve it's purpose within the constraints of the Geneva Convention. Game bullets are designed to hunt game.

The AR-15 is just a rifle. A dedicated game bullet is designed to accomplish all the things a hunter wants. The .458 Socom has a lot of mass, and a hollow-point expands to impart that energy faster across a larger area. Piggy stops very quickly. Likewise, I use a low-mass, high velocity bullet in an AR15 when dealing with nuisance animals like prairie dogs and armadillos. You tailor the load and the caliber to what you are hunting. The bullet doesn't care if it is fired out of a 'military style' gun or a bolt action rifle.

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I'm killing time in the airport on my way back to work, so I figured I'd post a few more pictures from Christmas. I built my son a toy box, and stenciled it with a bunch of dinosaurs and animals. My favorite stencil by far was the turtle. I stenciled it on a couple of IDPA targets for practice before I applied it to the toy box. I found it so amusing that I stenciled one of my steel plates as well. I was going to stencil 'Slow. Armored. Olive Drab.' underneath it, but then I realized I was out of OD paint. So now I am going to stencil 'Slow is Fast', which is a quasi-inside joke amongst military and sport shooters.
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I ran out of time to do any processing on this next picture, but it shows you what my 'photo studio' looks like; garage floor, white cardboard, and natural light. The 16" BCM, still on the test mule lower, with EOTech. This is a pretty good indicator of it's final configuration, less the green furniture:
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This final set is a case of 'Malibu Stacey has a New Hat'. I haven't been very satisfied with the SpeedFeed forearm on my shorty 870. Not very grippy. I decided to try out the Magpul forearm instead. I'd give it a 'B' for my purposes. It is very grippy, and has integrated hand-stops, which are good. It doesn't extend into the receiver, which is also good. On the other hand, it is too long at the front for my preferences. It won't allow me to use my tube mounted sling/stop, and the hand-stop is further forward towards the end of the barrel then I'd prefer. It feels great for me, but I would not feel comfortable putting it into the hands of a newer shooter in this configuration. I may mount a rail section and hand-stop on it, but that seems a lot snaggier than my old set-up. I am going to ask Magpul if they have any interest in molding me a version that is shorter by 3/4". Otherwise, the forearm quest continues. I am now thinking about the Hogue overmold.

shorty870c.jpg


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And the business end, with end-cap courtesy of my Canadian friends at Dlask:
shorty870a.jpg


Edited because I can't spell 'Prairie'.
 
Of course I don't know anything about hunting, as said I was just curious. So thx for the explanation.

DammitBoy said:
@ Crni - what is "military grade ammunition"? What is "overpowered"? The entire idea is to have as much penetration as possible with as large a wound channel as possible to stop the boar from eating you.
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no clue actually, it seems the describtion are in German to different compared to english.

So, maybe with some example its clear what I mean. There is always this lets call it a "story" about US soldiers which complained their standard NATO ammunition (Full metal jacket?) had no stoping power. It seems some Soldiers saw the somalians which had no kind of body protection to continue shooting even with several hits to the chest. The 5,56mm bullet would not expand I guess and thus simply penetrate the target. Thats what I meant with overpowered. I guess if a boar or even some bigger animal like a bear runs toward you you want that he feels the full power of the cartridge. Just what I thought. Not that I have ever been hunting or even in such a situation. A bear or boar has quite some mass maybe such ammunition is more useful here no clue.
 
Soldiers complain about everything they are issued. They always want something lighter, faster, with more capacity and more stopping power. The same story preceded the introduction of the 1911, the Beretta 92, the M1, the M14, and the M16, and probably will follow whatever comes next. We used to say 'A bitching sailor is a happy sailor.'

The 5.56 is a relatively low mass round, and US military convention mostly requires the use of Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) ammunition, although there are some exceptions for the Sierra Match King Boat Tail Hollowpoint (SMK BTHP), which have seen limited military use by precision shooters.

The basic kinetic energy formula is (1/2) mass * velocity squared. It is a good benchmark for talking about bullets in general, but there are many variables to take into consideration in the real world. The 5.56 round is comparatively low in mass and high in velocity. It is going to have a lot of kinetic energy, but a very small cross-section. It will penetrate gear, conventional vehicle sheet metal, and other odds and ends, because it is applying a lot of kinetic energy at a small point, and does not deform very much.

The FN 5.7 is another great example of this effect. It is a very small bullet with a very high velocity, so it will penetrate quite a bit, but will not impart that kinetic energy to the target. Additionally, since it has such low mass, once it has slowed down, it looses quite a bit of it's energy.

'Stopping Power' means just that; when someone stops. A bigger bullet, like a .308, kills just as effectively as a smaller bullet, like the 5.56. However, the larger bullet brings more trauma with it at a faster rate, hopefully shutting down the central nervous system before the bad guy has a chance to respond in kind.

Again, the US Military uses FMJ ammo because of politics, not necessarily because of effectiveness.
 
JohnnyEgo said:
This final set is a case of 'Malibu Stacey has a New Hat'. I haven't been very satisfied with the SpeedFeed forearm on my shorty 870. Not very grippy. I decided to try out the Magpul forearm instead. I'd give it a 'B' for my purposes. It is very grippy, and has integrated hand-stops, which are good. It doesn't extend into the receiver, which is also good. On the other hand, it is too long at the front for my preferences. It won't allow me to use my tube mounted sling/stop, and the hand-stop is further forward towards the end of the barrel then I'd prefer. It feels great for me, but I would not feel comfortable putting it into the hands of a newer shooter in this configuration. I may mount a rail section and hand-stop on it, but that seems a lot snaggier than my old set-up. I am going to ask Magpul if they have any interest in molding me a version that is shorter by 3/4". Otherwise, the forearm quest continues. I am now thinking about the Hogue overmold.

shorty870c.jpg
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Johnny, almost 100% of the folks posting on the gun forums I post at have a complete disdain for the pistol grip only shotgun. Mostly claiming you'll not be able to control it, you'll knock you teeth out, and it is useless in a firefight. When I make posts saying I've never had my 12ga pgo jump out of my hands or find it too robust in regard to recoil, I get hooted down by the 'experts'. Your thoughts?

FYI - Had hogue recoil tamer overmolded on both my rem 870 and mossberg pgo sbs - they work great, highly recommend.



Crni Vuk said:
There is always this lets call it a "story" about US soldiers which complained their standard NATO ammunition (Full metal jacket?) had no stopping power. It seems some Soldiers saw the somalians which had no kind of body protection to continue shooting even with several hits to the chest. The 5.56mm bullet would not expand I guess and thus simply penetrate the target. That's what I meant with overpowered.
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It's not that the bullet/ammo was overpowered, this problem is because of the bullet design as Johnny explained. A steel penetrator core does not expand and does not do enough damage like a hollow point would. Hollow points are against the Geneva Convention. Too good at their job for war - because the Geneva Convention is full of stupid. Why is a bullet that does a better job of killing a bad idea for a war?

"Military grade ammunition, such as M805/SS-109, which is a 5.56 round with a steel penetrator core, does very good at the penetration part. It doesn't do so hot at the expansion part, and once it travels through that much hide muscle, it doesn't have a whole lot of kinetic energy left." ~ Johnny Ego

As per the usual, Johnny is 100% correct with his explanation.


Dragula said:
Are the boars in America bigger than the ones in Europe? Does anyone know? Because we use .308.
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Depends on what part of the country you hunt hogs in. Hogs adapt to the territory they live in. Lots of food and water, they get bigger and breed more often. Not much food, little to no water, they stay small and have smaller litters.

Where I am, especially in Alabama near river bottom country, they get very, very big.

West Texas and Florida generally have much smaller pigs.
 
JohnnyEgo said:
Soldiers complain about everything they are issued. They always want something lighter, faster, with more capacity and more stopping power. The same story preceded the introduction of the 1911, the Beretta 92, the M1, the M14, and the M16, and probably will follow whatever comes next. We used to say 'A bitching sailor is a happy sailor.'
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though you have to agree a guy charging at you with an AK even though you got 2-3 runds in to his chest is something that can ruin your day :p

I guess someone will be crying right now, but I get most of my informations from this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7TmgyiLoY4

And R. Lee Ermeys Show about weapons/amunition.
*Edit
he seems to be a pretty funy lad!
 
Thanks, DB.

I think they have their place, like anything else. For sporting purposes, I'd rather have a stock, as it is easier to aim. For home defense or transportation and storage, a pistol grip comes into it's own. My instinct regarding the 'experts' is that they have limited experience with the pistol grip only, and have used it outside of it's intended purposes. I don't try to shoot magnum loads, or try to take fowl with it, nor do I try to do anything at extended range. The bird's-head style grip directs the recoil into the same axis as the forearm. I find it very comfortable, and the recoil to be very manageable. At 7 yards, I can keep all of the rounds on a dinner plate, which is good enough for my purposes. People who have never shot any kind of shotgun are surprised at how mild my shorty with the bird's-head grip is.

I use mostly Federal's LE132 00, usually the 8 pellet, but I'll take the 9 pellet if that is all that is available. It runs about 1100 FPS, which is as soft a commercial loading as I have seen. The flight control wad keeps a real tight grouping out of my short open cylinder barrel. I also like their LE127 slug, which is pretty soft shooting for slug. Neither will reliably cycle in either of my semi auto guns, though.

Picture Thread:
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My new tactical shotgun.

[Youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skaI9kHNt5Y[/Youtube]

[Youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRD-XPylH6E[/Youtube]
 
I'm curious Gentlemen, what sort of monies have you guys spent on your arms over the years, 10, 20 thousand...this isn't the cheapest hobby out there.

@DammitBoy - Are those boars native to the US, and I would have probably shat my pants if I came across a 385lbs monster charging at me. :roll: The one below is reported to be 1,051lbs.

2_21_052507_MonsterPig.jpg
 
I have owned a Smith and Wesson M&P model, and a JA Arms 9mm. However I had to trade both into the pawn shop.
 
.Pixote. said:
@DammitBoy - Are those boars native to the US, and I would have probably shat my pants if I came across a 385lbs monster charging at me. :roll: The one below is reported to be 1,051lbs.

2_21_052507_MonsterPig.jpg
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I remember this particular picture, it's mostly a hoax.

The pig's name was Fred, and it wasn't feral, it had been a docile and domesticated pet pig until shortly before being shot. The owner of a hunting preserve purchased Fred and then let him loose inside the preserve under a fantasy pretense that Fred was a feral hogzilla causing havoc inside the plantation.

It was pretty much a rigged hunt or "canned hunt." Prepackaged and not at all as heroic or natural as it would look like on paper. The kid didn't take the pig on the first shot, and the story was that it took Fred three hours to die of multiple wounds.
 
DevilTakeMe said:
It was pretty much a rigged hunt or "canned hunt." Prepackaged and not at all as heroic or natural as it would look like on paper. The kid didn't take the pig on the first shot, and the story was that it took Fred three hours to die of multiple wounds.
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Those arseholes deserve to be locked up, humanity never disappoints. :(
 
Oh fuck that man what do you think they do in factories all day long every day to cattle, chickens, and every other living thing that rests on your dinner table?

I won't bat an eyelash to canned hunting. As a matter of fact I do it for pheasant and chucker. The money our memberships to the reserve we hunt in goes to wildlife and land preservation. If not for our "canned hunting" over 400 acres would become developed mansion estates.

[edit] Okay after doing a little research, there are some fucked up aspects of canned hunting, undoubtedly. What I participate in could be considered canned hunting, if only because the foul is raised in farms right on the premisis, and released into the reserve, and we have to pay for each animal we shoot at, even if we don't kill them "If feathers fly, you buy". So yeah, I take half of the above back.
 
true enough, but usually they don't shoot animals there and as hunter (as far as I know, if you are a good one) you try not to let the animal suffer to much. Shoots to the head or heart are preferred. Depending what you want to do with the body.

But particularly in factories they don't take 3 ours to kill an animal. Not saying you don't have a point, but I still think there is a difference if you use something that kills the animal in not even a second or if you stab it to death for like 3 hours with knives. You can avoid certain things. Like unnecessary pain.

With saying that, it doesn't bother me if they butcher animals I have spend some parts of my childhood on a farm, and there it was normal to slaughter pigs or lambs or what ever and the animals would usually bleed to death.

But if you can do it fast, then you should do it at least as painless as possible. If they slaughtered some pig for example for xmas or what ever the butcher would use an axe or some blunt object like a heavy club and hit the animal on its head with quite some force, either outright killing it or making sure it doesn't notice anything. Not to mention its also safer for the butcher as well if the animal dies very fast.
 
I'm not a fan of caged/canned hunts. Just something about raising an animal, teaching it to trust humans, just rubs me the wrong way to hunt it after that.

It's like shooting a pet. Especially pigs, which are smarter than dogs and most liberals.

A wild animal has the advantage of fearing humans and using all it's senses and instincts to avoid the hunter. An animal raised in captivity loses all it's natural ability and therefore it's value as prey to be hunted.

There is as much challenge and thrill in a canned hunt as there is in walking into a pasture and shooting a cow that stands there looking at you. There is no 'hunting' involved. No tracking or stalking skills required. In my opinion it does not even qualify as hunting.
 
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