the Master: was he evil?

valcik said:
I don't think it's anti-nuclear only. There's whole human history mentioned - ancient wars waged by Romans, industrial wars waged during twenty century, and future nuclear wars purely fictional.

As for factions, The Master is clearly power grabbing, trying to unify and rule whole continent/world. Khans are power grabbing too, on much smaller scale limited by their manpower only. Hub merchants are power grabbing and slick as feck too.
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Again, it mentions wars with resource grabbing behind them. That's another, perfectly valid meaning for the famous slogan.

1) Master.
2) Wrong, the Khans themselves mention that they raid Shady Sands regularly, but allow them breaks so that there's something to actually raid.
3) Not really... the only example I can think of are the Water Merchants, but even then they're not actually that influential outside of the Hub.
 
1) Master!
2) That's only one fragment of Khans. Other groups are mentioned, without further explanation or in-game appearance. (tight deadlines suck ass)
3) Aside from ambitious Water Merchants, there are various criminal factions in Hub fighting for influence, plus a couple of caravan companies. Okay, we can call it local politics, fair enough, even if the influence of Water Merchants or caravan groups affects areas outside of Hub too.
 
Seeing politics in fiction is up to you, it really is. You can see a "political message" even in a nature documentary if you want to. Didn't people see feminist propaganda in some docu about penguins?

Everything can be tied to politics. EVERYTHING.
Does the vaultdweller buy his goods? Capitalism.
Does he find his goods? Libertarianism.
Does someone give him goods? Socialism.

OR, maybe he just buys some shit, finds some shit, and is gifted some shit, without a need to read lots of shit into it.

It's all up to you!
And once you DO read politics into it, well, it becomes obvious - to you!
 
I always felt that the different factions were inspired by historical figures, not necessarily actual politics.

If there is a political message going on in Fallout (which I'm not sure there really is) then it's probably anti-fascist, considering (imo anyway) The Master, the Enclave and Caesar's Legion are all the villains. Hell, you can't get more fascist than the Romans, considering they invented the word. Not only do all of them use violence to get their own way, they are also each and everyone eugenicists, all demanding perfection from their members (each in their own way of course). How anyone can say these do not mimic the actions of fascists is strange to me.

Anti-nuclear message? Yeah I would say so. I don't think the writers hit you over the head with it or anything but considering the nightmarish creatures encountered in Fallout and the state of humanity since the war, I think it's safe to say the writers don't particularly want a nuclear war anytime soon.

One of the best things about the Fallout series is that enemies become friends (and sometimes friends become enemies). The Khans, the Mutants, even the Enclave are all examples of this. I like that the writers give every group a fair hearing. Characters like Moreno are treated sympathetically.

One last point: I always noticed Marcus was very libertarian in his views in Fallout 2. He complains that the masses drag the individual down. I always wonder, especially since Fallout New Vegas came out where Marcus's views seem to have mellowed since then, whether the writers originally agreed with Marcus's opinion (at least, back in 1998) or if this was just Marcus's own opinion, as a mutant who had believed himself to be superior, now brought down by humanity, the perfection of the Unity lost.
 
I agree with Valcik, Fallout is charged with political messages. How can you bring yourself to finish New Vegas and not notice that you're choosing the next political regime in the mojave? That's what makes the experience so personal for each of us, and dismissing it without further ado is simply wrong. When you debate wether the NCR or Yes-man should be in charge, you're expressing your political standpoint.
The master was very obviously an allegory for Fascism, with his delusion of creating a superior race, obedient to a single man who himself is not blond with blue eyes...I mean a mutant :). The mutants inability to reproduce a metaphor for the death of the individual. There is obviously a LOT more thru all games, and wether the devs are right or wrong should at least be up for debate.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for a political debate here and now, but you can't have a serious in-depth discussion about Fallout's messages without digging sometimes into political stuff.
 
UsuallyLurkHereOnly said:
I agree with Valcik, Fallout is charged with political messages. How can you bring yourself to finish New Vegas and not notice that you're choosing the next political regime in the mojave? That's what makes the experience so personal for each of us, and dismissing it without further ado is simply wrong. When you debate wether the NCR or Yes-man should be in charge, you're expressing your political standpoint.
The master was very obviously an allegory for Fascism, with his delusion of creating a superior race, obedient to a single man who himself is not blond with blue eyes...I mean a mutant :). The mutants inability to reproduce a metaphor for the death of the individual. There is obviously a LOT more thru all games, and wether the devs are right or wrong should at least be up for debate.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for a political debate here and now, but you can't have a serious in-depth discussion about Fallout's messages without digging sometimes into political stuff.
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The question isn't whether it has a political subtext or not. The question is whether it's at all an allegory for modern political goings-on, like that leftist-liberal Master thing Valcik posted earlier.
 
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@Earth: I don't think The Master tried to create perfect specimen. 100% equal individuals or 100% unified entity? Yes. Perfect? He was well aware of drawbacks such as lowered intellect. (With exception of sterility, of course.)

@Izak: Nah, none allegory at all. It would be chronologically impossible to create any analogy to 2016 politics in 1997! I'm just trying to explain his motivation/vision through common terms, since we don't have any in-game lexical innovations for 21st century.
 
@valcik But the Master wanted you alive so you would give him the location of the vault. The Master had to put up with the lowered intelligent mutants because they were useful for grunt work, but really he wanted an all-powerful, all-intelligent race. He would mutate those like the Children of the Cathedral who willingly wanted to be mutated, but the rest he would sterilise because he knew they wouldn't live up to his desired perfection.

There are political points in Fallout sure, but it does seem a bit fallacious and far-fetched to say the Master (you know, the mutated mad scientist/monster creator of a race of superbeings) is an allegory for modern liberal/left wing politics. Even moreso to say that it was specifically the writer's intent.

Like all works of art, Fallout's message(s) are open to interpretation.

For my part, I think Fallout explores utopian ideals. All of the villains try to fix the wasteland to be the way they want it. That's not a left-wing thing though. Like I said, fascists were exactly the same. "If only we could remove the impurities then everything would be perfect". The Master, the Enclave, Caesar, Mr House, Father Elijah, Ulysses. All of them are utopians in their own way.

On another point, it annoys me that Fallout 2 retconned the Master's name to be Richard Moreau. He's Richard Grey damn it. Don't spell out your influences to the audience.
 
valcik said:
1) Master!
2) That's only one fragment of Khans. Other groups are mentioned, without further explanation or in-game appearance. (tight deadlines suck ass)
3) Aside from ambitious Water Merchants, there are various criminal factions in Hub fighting for influence, plus a couple of caravan companies. Okay, we can call it local politics, fair enough, even if the influence of Water Merchants or caravan groups affects areas outside of Hub too.
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1) MASTER!!! (can't disagree on this one)
2) Umm what? It's the only group of Khans, they're the original Khans and they're the only Khans.
3. They're not that ambitious... they want to be rich but there's no sign that they want to expand their control anywhere else. So yes, it is merely local politics and has no central message to show. What is it supposed to show how corrupt and EVILZ capitalism is?
 
Dr Fallout said:
3. They're not that ambitious... they want to be rich but there's no sign that they want to expand their control anywhere else. So yes, it is merely local politics and has no central message to show. What is it supposed to show how corrupt and EVILZ capitalism is?
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Weren't the Water Merchants somehow involved in Boneyard politics?
 
One of the things I love about Fallout is that it does invite us to critically analyze our conceptions of good and evil. The setting itself shows us examples of how people might behave in the worst possible circumstances, and asks us make our own choices within that context. I love the way so many of the mutants have names; they're not just generic villains. They were people like the character, once. They didn't choose their fate. In the military base, we meet a woman who loved the mutant we very likely just killed. She still saw the person he had been before. Did I make the wrong choice? Was it evil to kill the mutant? After the first play-through, I always wonder. Certainly killing him was expedient, and the context made it seem the correct choice. Ah! The context. I don't think it's a stretch by any means to think of the forced mutations as analogous to chronic illness, disability, poverty, or any circumstances which might limit a person's options and keep them from being who they would like to be. And where, then, are good and evil?

I don't mean to open a discussion of these issues, but to offer tribute to the developers who gave me a thought-provoking game. Those who don't think critically are legion, and they may enjoy their games as they will.
 
Kenneth E Lawson said:
Those who don't think critically are legion
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triggered.jpg
 
Not to derail the conversation, but is The Master a "he" anyways ? Isn't The Master more of a "They" really ? They are more then just Grey, they speak with many voices when you talk to them under the cathedral. What is the proper pronoun to use ? Is The Master more of an "It" ?
 
I see a lot of comparisons between Caesar and the Master. If you had to oversimplify, the Master just forced people into the vats because he believed that in order for humanity to survive, it has to evolve to adapt to the reality of the wasteland. Caesar on the other hand literally modeled himself as a Roman emperor that wanted to rule, abeit he also thought the same thing that the Master did in that people needed a new system that could be best suited for the wasteland (this time taking from ancient history).

It's still better intended and explained over the vague bullshit that Shaun tells you, where he provides hardly any real evidence that he wants to help the Commonwealth and just use the Institute as his own advance utopia de-facto.
 
Of course, I meant "legion" in the sense of "a great number." I don't even know about Caesar's Legion beyond rumors. I'm a Fallout fundamentalist. There is no Fallout but Fallout!
 
Kenneth E Lawson said:
Of course, I meant "legion" in the sense of "a great number." I don't even know about Caesar's Legion beyond rumors. I'm a Fallout fundamentalist. There is no Fallout but Fallout!
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Nah it's fine, I'm just joking.

But remember, the Legion is what I like to call a 'Fallout' faction. It was going to appear in the original Van Buren.
 
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