What was the Funniest Argument You've had with a Bethesda Apologist?

Iprovidelittlepianos said:
That’s another thing, many people from the New Vegas era (specifically Avellone) have left, so a fallout made by obsidian now isn’t necessarily going to be the same quality. Also, even if the creators of the originals are involved, people change. You mentioned Outer Worlds, well, Tim Cain was a big name on that project, but after playing Outer Worlds, the Tim Cain that helped create fallout over 20 years ago is not the same man he is today, creatively speaking.
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It's starting to seem like they really caught lightning in a bottle. I still think they can make another good Fallout.
 
Sicknessoverload said:
I meant that a lot of fans can't let go and appreciate the new games for what they are. It's incessant abject cynicism towards the franchise.
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This is and isn't true.
Many fans of the classic games would prefer Fallout to go back to Trimetric perspective, with turn combat, worlds that are consistent, respect and keep lore mainly intact between games, plenty of times to use characters skills, good quest design, factions that are good, etc. But many fans of the classic games also like or even love Fallout New Vegas. Some even like New Vegas more than the classic games.
New Vegas is definitely a "new style" Fallout game, so it's not like fans of the classic games can't let go and appreciate the new games for what they are.

It's also not hatred for Bethesda. For example, I personaly love Bethesda games. I only got into first person cRPGs with Daggerfall (which I love). But I also love Morrowind, and enjoy Oblivion too. I also enjoyed FO3, that's why I became part of the Tale of Two Wastelands project team. There's no way I would have joined the TTW team if I didn't like FO3.
But the problem with newer Bethesda games are not because they are made by Bethesda, it's because they turned their first person, action cRPG into first person shooters with some RPG elements thrown in them.

See, the problem for me is that I love RPGs but I hate shooters. So FO3 was still fun for me because it had just enough RPG systems in it, despite also being a shooter. I could compensate the shooter part that I don't like because of all the rest of the RPG stuff. But in FO4 for example, it's just too much more shooter, it becomes boring for me quite fast. Even Skyrim gets boring for me after 5 hours or so. Because even Skyrim already shaved too much of the RPG systems to be fun for me.

It's not that I hate the new games, it's just that they became too much like game genres I don't have fun playing while reducing things I enjoy. If Bethesda all of a sudden made a Fallout or The Elder Scrolls games that brought back more RPG systems, I bet I would enjoy playing them once again.

And it's not just Fallout and The Elder Scrolls. This happened with the Front Mission game series too, the games were jRPGs and then they released Front Mission Evolved. I bought it thinking it was like the classic games and when I tried it I just didn't have fun, not because it was something new, but because they changed the games genre to one I don't enjoy.
 
Sicknessoverload said:
It seems like a lot of people are stuck in the past and can't let go.
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You eventually had to use that, didn't you? Fuck, it always devolve into this crap when people are rightfully criticizing the Bethesda Fallouts.

It has nothing to do with being stuck in the past, it has to do with a franchise with a lot of potential being reduced to a dumb down, made for casuals "RPG" with the only sole intent of trying to sell as many as copies as possible, and not actually trying to improve what the first two games did wrong. They basically transplanted their design philosophies from the Elder Scrolls series that began in Oblivion: you can do everything in one playthrough, level scaling, bullet spong enemies, copy and pasted enemies, also copy and pasted dungeons barebones RPG elements, and many others. All of these things don't belong in Fallout.

I'm not gonna appreciate the Bethesda Fallouts for what they are because what they are is terrible. The combat sucks, the writing sucks, the world building sucks, the rpg elements are paper thin, the story is so badly told and written. New Vegas gets a lot more appreciation, even in the Codex, for actually trying.

The mere fact you haven't played the first two games means you are missing a ton of context. And my first Fallout was Fallout 3, so i don't even have a bias towards the first two games. I could see all the huge flaws in Fallout 3 and that was without playing the first two games. And playing the first two games just made it so much worse.
 
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Risewild said:
This is and isn't true.
Many fans of the classic games would prefer Fallout to go back to Trimetric perspective, with turn combat, worlds that are consistent, respect and keep lore mainly intact between games, plenty of times to use characters skills, good quest design, factions that are good, etc. But many fans of the classic games also like or even love Fallout New Vegas. Some even like New Vegas more than the classic games.
New Vegas is definitely a "new style" Fallout game, so it's not like fans of the classic games can't let go and appreciate the new games for what they are.

It's also not hatred for Bethesda. For example, I personaly love Bethesda games. I only got into first person cRPGs with Daggerfall (which I love). But I also love Morrowind, and enjoy Oblivion too. I also enjoyed FO3, that's why I became part of the Tale of Two Wastelands project team. There's no way I would have joined the TTW team if I didn't like FO3.
But the problem with newer Bethesda games are not because they are made by Bethesda, it's because they turned their first person, action cRPG into first person shooters with some RPG elements thrown in them.

See, the problem for me is that I love RPGs but I hate shooters. So FO3 was still fun for me because it had just enough RPG systems in it, despite also being a shooter. I could compensate the shooter part that I don't like because of all the rest of the RPG stuff. But in FO4 for example, it's just too much more shooter, it becomes boring for me quite fast. Even Skyrim gets boring for me after 5 hours or so. Because even Skyrim already shaved too much of the RPG systems to be fun for me.

It's not that I hate the new games, it's just that they became too much like game genres I don't have fun playing while reducing things I enjoy. If Bethesda all of a sudden made a Fallout or The Elder Scrolls games that brought back more RPG systems, I bet I would enjoy playing them once again.

And it's not just Fallout and The Elder Scrolls. This happened with the Front Mission game series too, the games were jRPGs and then they released Front Mission Evolved. I bought it thinking it was like the classic games and when I tried it I just didn't have fun, not because it was something new, but because they changed the games genre to one I don't enjoy.
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Well by let go I meant that fans need to understand that there's not going to be a new turn based Fallout. And take of two wastelands sounds so cool, I wish I had a pc but thank you for not ripping my head off. I still love Fallout 4 and Skyrim but I can understand where you're coming from, 4 is just too much of a shooter and that terrible dialogue system makes me uncomfortable and I like the game.
 
Norzan said:
You eventually had to use that, didn't you? Fuck, it always devolve into this crap when people are rightfully criticizing the Bethesda Fallouts.

It has nothing to do with being stuck in the past, it has to do with a franchise with a lot of potential being reduced to a dumb down, made for casuals "RPG" with the only sole intent of trying to sell as many as copies as possible, and not actually trying to improve what the first two games did wrong. They basically transplanted their design philosophies from the Elder Scrolls series that began in Oblivion: you can do everything in one playthrough, level scaling, bullet spong enemies, copy and pasted enemies, also copy and pasted dungeons barebones RPG elements, and many others. All of these things don't belong in Fallout.

I'm not gonna appreciate the Bethesda Fallouts for what they are because what they are is terrible. The combat sucks, the writing sucks, the world building sucks, the rpg elements are paper thin, the story is so badly told and written. New Vegas gets a lot more appreciation, even in the Codex, for actually trying.

The mere fact you haven't played the first two games means you are missing a ton of context. And my first Fallout was Fallout 3, so i don't even have a bias towards the first two games. I could see all the huge flaws in Fallout 3 and that was without playing the first two games. And playing the first two games just made it so much worse.
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Well, there's criticism then abject hate and contempt. That's a very cynical viewpoint, a lot of people love FPS games and I wouldn't call it dumbed down just because it isn't what you want. And how do you expect people to play the old games if you're extremely abrasive and harsh with everyone? You were all brutal with me but let off when you realized I could listen to both sides.
 
Sicknessoverload said:
Well, there's criticism then abject hate and contempt. That's a very cynical viewpoint, a lot of people love FPS games and I wouldn't call it dumbed down just because it isn't what you want. And how do you expect people to play the old games if you're extremely abrasive and harsh with everyone? You were all brutal with me but let off when you realized I could listen to both sides.
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People on NMA can be very-frothy at the mouth. We have a bad reputation in other Fallout communities and though it's typically hyperbolic, there is a problem of being dickheads to people who like Bethesda Fallout. Norzan in particular can be a little bit hot-headed on the issue. I share a lot of the same rant-y feelings but you don't get someone to consider your viewpoint on something by being rude.

It's been so long that I don't really feel anger or even bitterness over the Bethesda treatment of the franchise but moreso find it interesting to dissect in an autopsy kind of way. Lot of good lessons to be learnt about RPGs, worldbuilding, writing and what constitutes "Fallout" in the first place. I actively run Fallout tabletop stuff so the franchise is still alive to me in a way.
 
Atomic Postman said:
People on NMA can be very-frothy at the mouth. We have a bad reputation in other Fallout communities and though it's typically hyperbolic, there is a problem of being dickheads to people who like Bethesda Fallout. Norzan in particular can be a little bit hot-headed on the issue. I share a lot of the same rant-y feelings but you don't get someone to consider your viewpoint on something by being rude.

It's been so long that I don't really feel anger or even bitterness over the Bethesda treatment of the franchise but moreso find it interesting to dissect in an autopsy kind of way. Lot of good lessons to be learnt about RPGs, worldbuilding, writing and what constitutes "Fallout" in the first place. I actively run Fallout tabletop stuff so the franchise is still alive to me in a way.
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Well said.
 
Sicknessoverload said:
Well, there's criticism then abject hate and contempt. That's a very cynical viewpoint, a lot of people love FPS games and I wouldn't call it dumbed down just because it isn't what you want. And how do you expect people to play the old games if you're extremely abrasive and harsh with everyone? You were all brutal with me but let off when you realized I could listen to both sides.
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It is dumbed down, it got simplified. Skill points got removed, writing got dumber, trait got removed and so on. It's not a cynical viewpoint in the slightest, simplification is what happened.

You can be fine with it, but you are not gonna tell me dumbing down didn't happened.
Atomic Postman said:
Norzan in particular can be a little bit hot-headed on the issue. I share a lot of the same rant-y feelings but you don't get someone to consider your viewpoint on something by being rude.
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I don't care if people like the Bethesda Fallouts. Love them, do whatever you want with them, i don't care. People start crossing the line when they start saying "we're stuck in the past", or "we hate Bethesda", or some other crap when we are criticizing Bethesda Fallout.

I want people to not try dismiss my legit criticism by handwaving it as being cynical or some other crap. That's condesceding, and that's the second that i no longer care about whatever point of view you have.
 
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All the lemons on here are just upset that Bethesda built Fallout into a global cultural force as opposed to the originals. Stay mad.
 
Morgan_ said:
All the lemons on here are just mad that Bethesda built Fallout into a global cultural force as opposed to the originals. Stay mad.
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Fallout 76 sure is a global cultural force. :smug:

At this point i just want Bethesda to release more fuckups like Fallout 76. I know the old Fallout will never return, but seeing Bethesda fuck up so hard that it causes even the hardcore Bethesda fans to criticize them is way too funny.
 
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Sicknessoverload said:
Well by let go I meant that fans need to understand that there's not going to be a new turn based Fallout.
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It's not like anyone here really expects that. But I think a lot of people would be already more than happy to have at least a game that could be considered a role playing game. And when you look at the criticism Bethesda took for Fallout 4, we're not alone in that part.

Sicknessoverload said:
What's wrong with that?
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It's like saying you consider a bucket full of chum as the best meal.

 
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I was a bit joking. Yes you can see Fallout 76 as the best Fallout game ever.

That still doesn't change the fact that it is the furthest from what Fallout ever was supposed to be as a game. Even if you take Fallout 3 and ... ugh ... Fallout 4 as example.
 
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