Why do people think New Vegas was actually good?

You said it yourself, an abstraction for real time travel, which in a sense you agreed with Gizmo that it's also re-traversing the old grounds, so there's really no reason at all to prevent players from using the mechanics in case of overloaded with items or having crippled legs. They just need to make it so that time passes by accordingly as a consequence of using the features under such state, which may or may not lead to less than optimal outcome when tasked with timed quests (if there's any in this game, I've forgotten much about it and I doubt they put any considering target audience).

But yeah, I also dislike the game's implementation of fast travel as if it's some kind of teleportation. Would prefer if there exist Fallout 1&2's overworld map travel and/or caravan running to accommodate instant travel from one settlement to another, complete with random encounters to protect the caravan from raiders and wildlife.
But it's real time travel on the context of running away, how would you do that with crippled legs or overencumbered? That would be like complaining that you need to eat in hardcore mode. Kind of the point of it is to make the mechanics less permissive and punishing.

If you would move at the speed of overencumbered or broken legs when you also have meters for hunger, sleep and dehydration you would probably die from those after calculating time accordingly to new movement speed and then you would have a feature that allows you to kill yourself in a menu when traveling.
Also OVerencumbered players can't fast travel even in Regular mode.
 
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But it's real time travel on the context of running away, how would you do that with crippled legs or overencumbered?
How do you come to the conclusion that the real time travel is on the context of running away? What if it's in a situation where you're just done dealing with some raiders/wildlife, but happened to get crippled as the cost? What if it's not running away, what if you just happened to step on a landmine which crippled your leg, in a middle of somewhere not really that far away from the nearest settlement, and also there's really no one/nothing else around?

Or what if you happened to stumble upon an abandoned place full of loot in an area relatively clear of hostiles, and trying to take all the loot makes you overloaded? Really, there's no reason to restrict fast-travel option when they could've adjusted the time spent as a consequence.

If you would move at the speed of overencumbered or broken legs when you also have meters for hunger, sleep and dehydration you would probably die from those after calculating time accordingly to new movement speed and then you would have a feature that allows you to kill yourself in a menu when traveling.
Then maybe do it like how any other games do it sensibly, like Mount&Blade, where food and supply automatically consumed in overworld map travel? Iirc Fallout 1 already have a mechanic where, upon getting a random encounter where you might get dehydration during overworld map travel, the game would check if you got water flasks in your inventory, and if you have any it would prevent it.

Also OVerencumbered players can't fast travel even in Regular mode.
Again, there's really no reason to do it like that when they could've just adjusted the time spent during fast travel as a consequence for using it while being overencumbered.
 
How do you come to the conclusion that the real time travel is on the context of running away?

Because it-s called "Fast travel" and not "Normal travel" nor "Instant transmission".
If you have a shoot out and your leg gets fucked up, would you be able to book it out of there on foot?

What if it's in a situation where you're just done dealing with some raiders/wildlife, but happened to get crippled as the cost? What if it's not running away, what if you just happened to step on a landmine which crippled your leg, in a middle of somewhere not really that far away from the nearest settlement, and also there's really no one/nothing else around?
You get fucked like it would happen to you in real life, you are on Hardcore mode after all.

Or what if you happened to stumble upon an abandoned place full of loot in an area relatively clear of hostiles, and trying to take all the loot makes you overloaded? Really, there's no reason to restrict fast-travel option when they could've adjusted the time spent as a consequence.

You suck it up and drop loot or manually walk there, you are on hardcore mode. The consequence is that you can't use the convenience feature, otherwise there would be no point in having a carry weight because then players would just hoard shit and have no penalty for it. Basic game balance.

Then maybe do it like how any other games do it sensibly, like Mount&Blade, where food and supply automatically consumed in overworld map travel? Iirc Fallout 1 already have a mechanic where, upon getting a random encounter where you might get dehydration during overworld map travel, the game would check if you got water flasks in your inventory, and if you have any it would prevent it.
So, they do it like Fallout 1, and prevent it.

I would prefer they just disable fast travel in hardcore mode.

Again, there's really no reason to do it like that when they could've just adjusted the time spent during fast travel as a consequence for using it while being overencumbered.
And what would be the point of that? There is no timed events in the game, the only thing time affects is the Hardcore needs which also prevent you from fast traveling if you have them too low, and allowing the player to teleport while having 1000 lbs of loot would basically make regular movement pointless.

Again, you are on hardcore mode. If you want to fast travel while overencumbered: Get to Level 12, put 70 towards Barter and have 6 endurance and pick the Long Haul Perk.
 
Because it-s called "Fast travel" and not "Normal travel" nor "Instant transmission".
If you have a shoot out and your leg gets fucked up, would you be able to book it out of there on foot?
Okay, okay, I get it. I didn't mean it exactly "fast travel". More like overworld map travel a la Fallout 1&2. Otherwise, I wouldn't have mentioned there being time spent adjustment based on your character's condition, no?

You get fucked like it would happen to you in real life, you are on Hardcore mode after all.
I still don't see how that's an excuse when you could've just implement the solution I provided.

You suck it up and drop loot or manually walk there, you are on hardcore mode. The consequence is that you can't use the convenience feature, otherwise there would be no point in having a carry weight because then players would just hoard shit and have no penalty for it. Basic game balance.
Again, time adjustment as a consequence and automatic supply consumption during "fast" travel would've been the better solution to this.

So, they do it like Fallout 1, and prevent it.

I would prefer they just disable fast travel in hardcore mode.
In Fallout 1 they only check for whether you have water flasks during dehydration random encounter. And again, what I meant for New Vegas was to have automatic supply consumption during overworld map travel, making you stop when you're hungry/thirsty when not having food/water in your inventory would've been better.


And what would be the point of that? There is no timed events in the game,
And that's a shame, but I digress.
 
Aha... I have a fourth peeve. The game wastes a trait for Wild Wasteland, instead of just making it the regular state of the world, as it should be.
This was most likely done to avoid people complaining about weird shit like they did with Fallout 2. So they locked out the weird encounters and references behind a trait.
 
I still don't see how that's an excuse when you could've just implement the solution I provided.

Because that solution is lame and doesn't actually do anything for balance?

Being crippled = No fast Travel vs Being Cripple Means pointless in game hours happen at different rates, one forces you to either find something to heal yourself or encourages more careful gameplay, the other..... does nothing, at all, and it's lame.

Again, time adjustment as a consequence and automatic supply consumption during "fast" travel would've been the better solution to this.
No, because, again, in game time is mostly pointless and it creates a complete lack of consequence for something as serious as getting a leg crippled.

In Fallout 1 they only check for whether you have water flasks during dehydration random encounter. And again, what I meant for New Vegas was to have automatic supply consumption during overworld map travel, making you stop when you're hungry/thirsty when not having food/water in your inventory would've been better.
Not really, if everything is consumed automatically what are you even having the hardcore needs for? The idea is that players manage their survival, and they are actually fairly permissive in vanilla hardcore, yet you seem to want it to be even more permissive to the point of pointlessness.
 
lol look at what this thread has devolved into. Now people are arguing about Fast Travel of all thing in an optional mode. This thread keeps on giving. :postviper:
 
Fast travel (in hardcore) is denied when the PC is overloaded
It's like this in all "modern" Bethesda engine games even without Hardcore/Survival mode. In Fallout 4 it's like that too but in Survival mode it also decreases your Endurance and Agility by 2 and makes the character take damage over time, in Morrowind and Oblivion it prevents you from moving at all. In Skyrim you can't even use the wagons you pay to transport you to towns (besides not being able to fast travel). In Fallout 76 you can't fast travel either and can only run by using AP.

At least in FNV there's a perk to allow to fast travel when over encumbered (named Long Haul). This makes me think that it might be one of Bethesda's limitations imposed on FNV, and Obsidian just made a Perk to allow players to get rid of it.

Fast travel (in hardcore) is denied (...) has a crippled leg.
This doesn't happen in FNV. :confused:
 
I wonder if it wasn't just overburdened then? It's been years. I remember the long limping walk from the NCR outpost to the Doc's house in Greensprings.

Being crippled = No fast Travel
This is ridiculous just on the conceptual level alone.
"Fast Travel" is just a name; a misnomer at that. They don't travel faster.
Because it-s called "Fast travel" and not "Normal travel" nor "Instant transmission".
It simply means that the game skips the realtime trip, and resumes at the destination.

In Fallout, when you travel to the Lost hills bunker from Vault 13, the game clock advances about two weeks. In FO3, if you use the map to travel to Rivet City from Vault 101, the game clock advances about three hours... It could easily have been made to advance the game clock to nine hours with a crippled leg.

*They could have included a chance for random encounters per hour of travel.
 
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I'm in agreement with Walpknut that I think removing Fast Travel in Hardcore mode is better than having it. Also, if you didn't bring enough supplies to end up that situation anway, it's kind of your fault.

Something simple like being able to pay to hitch on with a Caravan would have worked fine as an in-lore method of fast-travel.
 
I also agree with Walpknut here.

The thing about fast travel is that it removes the danger of having to walk back and encounter enemies on the way of the character's destination. There is more to it than just "makes us lose time just by crawling to our destination", it actually forces the player to do their best to avoid enemies on the way.

Also nothing in the game is preventing the player from just drop or place on any container enough junk to stop being over encumbered and then fast travel, stash or sell all the loot/junk, fast travel back and do pick up the stuff that was left behind and fast travel again. And as I mentioned, Obsidian did make a Perk to allow the fast travel even over encumbered, so it's not like there is no choice.

In addition, FNV has plenty of other Perks that help increasing the max weight load or decrease the weight of items. Stuff like Strong Back (FNV), Burden to Bear (Honest Hearst DLC), Pack Rat (FNV), Heavyweight (Dead Money DLC). And even the Hoarder trait (OWB DLC). It's obvious that Obsidian didn't like the over-encumbrance either and kept adding stuff to make it easier to deal with it even on several DLCs.
 
This was most likely done to avoid people complaining about weird shit like they did with Fallout 2. So they locked out the weird encounters and references behind a trait.
I thought they made a statement that it was pretty much done so that the wacky bits of Fallout 2 would still appear in game but only if you took a trait for it. Which, I don't feel is damning even with the live aliens. You are seeing weird shit in the wasteland when you take this. It's meant to be wacky and not adhere to common sense.
 
You guys know well me and Gizmo didn't specifically said fast travel a la Bethesda games. We wanted it to be overworld map travel a la Fallout 1&2, where time and supplies are automatically consumed as your character in form of a little dot on the map moves from one point to another, and they're consumed accordingly based on your character's conditions. Can even include caravan running as a form of 'fast' travel, so it's strange it didn't exists in the first place.

And as we mentioned multiple times, the dangers are still there with random encounters, and having the game checks for you Survival skill (which is just New Vegas's version of Outdoorsman) to avoid encounters would've instantly made it a whole lot better RPG. Could even do double skill checks on also Sneak if you decided to face the random encounter but want to gain an upper-hand by approaching them while they're unaware. Iirc this kind of thing is actually done by ATOM RPG, but I've yet to actually play it.

Alas, it has been ~10 years since the game's release. And I doubt there's any modders out there who cared about the same stuff as I do for RPGs, other than the ones I've already know.
 
I thought they made a statement that it was pretty much done so that the wacky bits of Fallout 2 would still appear in game but only if you took a trait for it. Which, I don't feel is damning even with the live aliens. You are seeing weird shit in the wasteland when you take this. It's meant to be wacky and not adhere to common sense.
That was pretty much my point. Fallout 2's weird stuff is kind of hard to tell if it's meant to be actual part of the world or some fever dream by the player character. Locking out that stuff behind the trait tells the player that it's just meant to be funny stuff that is not meant to be taken seriously.

This was their compromise between the people that hated the wacky stuff of Fallout 2 and the people that liked it.
 
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I probably should have clarified that bit was for Gizmo more than it was for you. I figured that you felt the same.
 
You guys know well me and Gizmo didn't specifically said fast travel a la Bethesda games. We wanted it to be overworld map travel a la Fallout 1&2, where time and supplies are automatically consumed as your character in form of a little dot on the map moves from one point to another, and they're consumed accordingly based on your character's conditions. Can even include caravan running as a form of 'fast' travel, so it's strange it didn't exists in the first place.

And as we mentioned multiple times, the dangers are still there with random encounters, and having the game checks for you Survival skill (which is just New Vegas's version of Outdoorsman) to avoid encounters would've instantly made it a whole lot better RPG. Could even do double skill checks on also Sneak if you decided to face the random encounter but want to gain an upper-hand by approaching them while they're unaware. Iirc this kind of thing is actually done by ATOM RPG, but I've yet to actually play it.

Alas, it has been ~10 years since the game's release. And I doubt there's any modders out there who cared about the same stuff as I do for RPGs, other than the ones I've already know.

You are aware that this literally exists as a mod for New Vegas, right.
 
You guys know well me and Gizmo didn't specifically said fast travel a la Bethesda games. We wanted it to be overworld map travel a la Fallout 1&2, where time and supplies are automatically consumed as your character in form of a little dot on the map moves from one point to another, and they're consumed accordingly based on your character's conditions. Can even include caravan running as a form of 'fast' travel, so it's strange it didn't exists in the first place.

And as we mentioned multiple times, the dangers are still there with random encounters, and having the game checks for you Survival skill (which is just New Vegas's version of Outdoorsman) to avoid encounters would've instantly made it a whole lot better RPG. Could even do double skill checks on also Sneak if you decided to face the random encounter but want to gain an upper-hand by approaching them while they're unaware. Iirc this kind of thing is actually done by ATOM RPG, but I've yet to actually play it.

Alas, it has been ~10 years since the game's release. And I doubt there's any modders out there who cared about the same stuff as I do for RPGs, other than the ones I've already know.
IIRC, Gizmo's original complaint was that in FNV you can't fast travel while encumbered. That was the problem that originated this discussion.

So the problem was about having two systems intertwined the fast travel and the encumbrance system that would deny the fast travel. In this initial problem there was no mention of changing it to overworld travel.

Now, changing it to overworld travel like classic Fallout games or ATOM RPG makes the problem even worse, because in those games the encumbrance system is even more restrict, you can't carry more than your max weight limit, so having the classic games system already prevent the player from overworld travel while encumbered, because the games are so restrict, you can't become over encumbered... In Mount & Blade, you have no max weight, but you're very limited by the slots in your inventory, which would not work very well in a Bethesda's engine game, because those games are made for players to pick up almost everything, and having a limit on how many items you can carry at once is much worse than making you walk slow and not be able to fast travel.
I have to mention again, FNV has a perk that allows to do just this. So the game actually has and offers to the player the solution for this "problem".

So basically, this discussion evolved from a "can't fast travel while over encumbered" to a "change the entire systems to something different like other games did, but still change those systems to be even less restrictive and allow to travel carrying more than the max weight"... That is a giant leap from the original "problem" to something that has nothing to do with it...
 
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You are aware that this literally exists as a mod for New Vegas, right.
Which one? The overworld map travel? The caravan running? Time and supplies automatically consumed and accordingly to character's condition (crippled, hungry/thirsty, overencumbered, etc etc) when using the 'fast' travel?

And even if the mods exists, I'd rather the devs put it into the game in the first place, because it's one of the features which was there in Fallout 1&2.

So basically, this discussion evolved from a "can't fast travel while over encumbered" to a "change the entire systems to something different like other games did, but still change those systems to be even less restrictive and allow to travel carrying more than the max weight"... That is a giant leap from the original "problem" to something that has nothing to do with it...
It's a natural progression of this discussion in particular. Gizmo said one of New Vegas's problems was not letting players using the 'fast' travel mechanic while overencumbered or crippled, which are the two conditions the players would've needed the feature the most. Walp then said it 'makes sense', to which Gizmo and I replied it doesn't when there are better ways to implement the features and its relation to weight system, health condition, and the survival mechanics, instead of outright restricting the feature. Especially since the solutions suggested are already things the predecessors have.

So, no, it's not really a 'giant' leap nor it's something that has nothing to do with.
 
Which one? The overworld map travel? The caravan running? Time and supplies automatically consumed and accordingly to character's condition (crippled, hungry/thirsty, overencumbered, etc etc) when using the 'fast' travel?

And even if the mods exists, I'd rather the devs put it into the game in the first place, because it's one of the features which was there in Fallout 1&2.
.

https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/52129
 
Fallout 1's map travel doesn't really play well with Fallout New Vegas in the long and short term, these games are built upon the idea of player exploration, that's like 60% of the mechanics.
 
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