Sicknessoverload
Still Mildly Glowing
A true hero, he's an inspiration to us all I wish I could be like him.
Why do people think New Vegas was actually good?
- Thread starter chunglord420
- Start date
Still Mildly Glowing
ResetRPG
Algebraic Geometry and Dandelion Soup
I have not seen anything about that in my own searches of deliberate censorship to pander to the Chinese Market.
Even if we do assume that there is censorship, it doesn't make much sense to censor great war lore and not Liberty Prime roaring with glaring orientalist and anti communist sentiment along with the entire existence of Operation Anchorage (not saying it's bad, but it helps play into the whole Fallout critique of Jingoism, which is a good one in my opinion).
Fallout has had a consistent fan base in China since the release of the original game and the games have not experienced any glaring censorship. Fallout 4 wasn't even censored, and you have the glaring anti Chinese sentiment of Liberty Prime in the Chinese Markets (Granted, the game is translated to Traditional Chinese as opposed to Simplified Chinese because the target audience is usually in Hong Kong and Taiwan). https://www.quora.com/Is-Fallout-4-banned-in-China-If-not-how-was-Liberty-Prime-censored
Until there is mass investment into Bethesda or Zenimax from Chinese firms, I doubt that Bethesda will heavily kowtow to the CCP. That's at least one good thing I can sat about it.
Just seems like alarmism given current context of the market.
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Sicknessoverload
Still Mildly Glowing
I think people forget that China is a quarter of the world's population.
D
Deleted member 116891
Guest
The trouble with all of this is that you haven't explained what is more 'fun' about the main quest in Fallout 3. Apart from vault 87, which is a largely linear dungeon with corridors of enemies. You also need to explain, to flesh this out, why the quests 'aren't that great' in New Vegas.
I'm struggling to think why you would deplore a faction that wants to enslave people in New Vegas and then praise the enslavement in Fallout 3. Also, 999 out of 1000 characters would not nuke megaton. It has a reputation for being one of the worst (as in, why did the developers put that in) quests in RPGs. It is because Bethesda's 'worlds' are theme parks. There is no difference between Megaton and nuking Appalachia. People nuked Megaton cause it looked cool. That's the long and the short of it.
I don't think that will be too much of a handicap, but when you discuss the games, their roleplaying potential is one of the keys to the success of the originals, which are masterpieces for that reason.
It is also one of the reasons why New Vegas cannot always measure up, because aiming your mouse or thumbsticks is not the character skill, it is the player skill that matters. New Vegas is a masterpiece, but the engine and fps perspective is why it will never exceed Fallout 1.
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Morgan_
Duckerz
And here I am thinking that the NV engine was one of the things that made it better than the og Fallout games. The turn based fighting in those games really doesn't do it for me after the new Xcom games. It's definitely aged.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
That genuinely made me laugh out loud.
Gamebryo, man, jesus christ. What a shit engine.
Morgan_
Duckerz
I mean, it's better than the Fallout 1 and 2 engine in terms of technical ability. Besides gta5 was built on a tennis game engine. it's not the engine, but the programmers that matter, or the lack of hiring programmers and insisting the ones you have work as a skeleton crew.
Good lord I get off to a late start and this thread blows up while I’m eating my 2pm breakfast.
Well, @Sicknessoverload what you need to realize is that the main reason NV is seen as better than 3 by this community (aside from the game mechanics and everything else) is that the story and writing are honestly MILES ahead of 3. That’s not even debatable, it’s a fact.
3 is an amusement park ride; OH NO ABSENT FATHER WHERE HE GO, and from then on you go around looking for him and saving a wasteland populated by 50s sitcom characters in both writing and voice acting.
NV is another beast. You start out on a basic revenge quest, then end up exploring the nature of man and government, the very things that make us human, as you explore a world that’s rebuilding and yet still foreign to us as players. The world of 3 revels in Old World Blues; people want a return to that magical time before the bombs. But NV tells us definitively that time has passed; the old and the weak are doomed, and the new dog eat dog world the pre-war left behind is proof enough why we should let go rather than simply repeat it.
Well, @Sicknessoverload what you need to realize is that the main reason NV is seen as better than 3 by this community (aside from the game mechanics and everything else) is that the story and writing are honestly MILES ahead of 3. That’s not even debatable, it’s a fact.
3 is an amusement park ride; OH NO ABSENT FATHER WHERE HE GO, and from then on you go around looking for him and saving a wasteland populated by 50s sitcom characters in both writing and voice acting.
NV is another beast. You start out on a basic revenge quest, then end up exploring the nature of man and government, the very things that make us human, as you explore a world that’s rebuilding and yet still foreign to us as players. The world of 3 revels in Old World Blues; people want a return to that magical time before the bombs. But NV tells us definitively that time has passed; the old and the weak are doomed, and the new dog eat dog world the pre-war left behind is proof enough why we should let go rather than simply repeat it.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
No? You can do a lot more with Fallout 1 and 2 engine in mods than with Bethesda shitty engine. Gamebryo engine at this point is held by duct tape and you can hardly do much with it. Fallout 4's version is even worse because it has a bunch of hardcoded crap.
There's so much a progammer can do when the tools they have are primitive and need a massive upgrade. Gamebryo itself isn't bad, Bethesda's version is.
Morgan_
Duckerz
It may be a more simple engine to mod with, but I think the existence of the modding community around beth games, their size and the quality/scale of them in comparison to any other game shows this to be wrong. There are just more possibilities with it than a 90's turn based engine, I mean, come on dude.
Okay, so you actually agree with me then?
D
Deleted member 116891
Guest
Me too. I would have said that its a divide between those who played the originals first and those who played the fps ones first, but you started with F3 and I started with F4 then 3, so suppose not.
I suppose the rebuttal is to ask what it achieved. Fallouts 3 and New Vegas are worse (less fluid, certainly,) in their shooting mechanics than Half Life 1, or Deus Ex, or Quake. It is hard to say what part of New Vegas or Fallout 3 that engine really enhanced.
I mean, of course I'll disagree, but even if F1 or 2's combat is not the last word, it is hard to say the newer games are in their particular area either. Not to mention, as I have said, in the originals, the character matters, not the player nearly as much, and that is better for roleplaying than having all your characters having the same shooting skill, outside of VATS.
Well said. Also the F1 and F2 engine has made Fallout 1.5 which is better than F3 and 4. Suppose there is life in the old dog yet.....
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
No, it just means Bethesda games are more popular. It doesn't mean it's actually better.
And again, that is a condemning statement because the most popular mods for Bethesda games are complete overhauls. Not like JESawyer for New Vegas, but like Requiem for Skyrim. When your most popular mods are ones that complete change your entire game, from combat, RPG elements and entire systems, that's such hard evidence that people don't like your actual game and would rather the mod the fuck out of it to avoid playing your shitty version.
Nope, didn't you read what i said? Bethesda's Gamebryo is shit and that's NV engine. Which you were saying is better than Fallout 1 and 2's engine, and the former is not better.
The mere fact the Fallout 1 and 2 engine has made some awesome games like Fallout Nevada proves this.
This. Fallout 3 and NV's combat was dated at release. FPS from the 90s had better FPS mechanics. When you are outperformed by a game 10 years older than your game, you fucked up.
ResetRPG
Algebraic Geometry and Dandelion Soup
Surprisingly, Gamebryo isn't the actual problem, it's Bethesda's own source code.
Discussion from Developers on the quality of the Gamebryo engine shows that the engine is pretty flexible and used for a ton of good games that run fairly well.
Lets set the record straight about the Creation/Gamebryo engine : Fallout (reddit.com)
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I already clarified myself. When i meant "what a shit engine", i meant specifically Bethesda's.
ResetRPG
Algebraic Geometry and Dandelion Soup
Okay then.
Morgan_
Duckerz
"Better" is subjective though and the objective reality is that Beth games make more money and can gain peoples interest enough that they want to spend years making stuff for them, or even have the dream of being hired. I would say that closes the book on which is "better" outside of what you personally think.
How can Bethesda manage to make such horrendous games, but people are still willing to spend years of their life to make these things for a game and to spend thousands of hours playing it before and after? Stockholm syndrome I guess.
I did, and all you did was repeat what I said back to me about the engine as if I did not say it.
It's a 3d engine with active lighting effects. It is technically superior to F1 & 2 engine. There really is no discussion to be had here.
The Beth engines have done this as well, what's your point?
Which would be a failure of game design and not the engine. My point was that when comparing the engine from the og's with Beth's engine it is a more sophisticated engine capable of more things.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
No, it doesn't. Popularity doesn't mean quality in the slightest, or else some of the most celebrated pieces of media would be shit because either bombed at the box office, or sold pooly.
Because popularity means more people are fixing their games, means way more mods to fix their crappy design. And Bethesda games become popular because Todd Howard is sleazly bastard that overhypes his games, and because they have a giant marketing budget. Don't confuse FOMO (fear of missing out) mixed with an huge marketing campaign with people being excited for their games.
Llike being 3D and having active lighting effects means it's better.
They have done less and even if what they made is great, it's still tied down by Bethesda's engine being shit. If it was made in a much better engine it would be a noticeable improvement. This is not the case for mods made in Fallout 1 and 2 engine being made in other engines.
I'm not gonna repeat myself, so i'm just gonna say no. it's not more sophisticated in the slightest, and the reason you gave are pathetically weak.
Morgan_
Duckerz
”Big Mad” unironically needs to be NMA’s tagline.Big mad.
Well, to be fair... Bethesda Fallout games usually have the worst rating given by players when compared to other games. In some places Fallout Tactics even has better ratings than any of Bethesda's Fallout games.
The exception is FOBOS. But even FOBOS has better ratings than Fallout 76 these days.
I have a nice list of what ratings players give to all Fallout games in the biggest gaming platforms (Steam, GOG and Metacritic) and I just updated it the other day:
https://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/what-others-think-about-the-fallout-games.219163/
Speaking as being a modder for these games for almost a decade and being part of the TTW team for that long too. We want to fix and improve the games.How can Bethesda manage to make such horrendous games, but people are still willing to spend years of their life to make these things for a game and to spend thousands of hours playing it before and after? Stockholm syndrome I guess.
Both Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas are terribly broken. For example, in Fallout 3 a lot of NPC interactions that the game was supposed to show never happen because of an error... Basically the Fallout 3 people play is not the "full" experience that the developers wanted, because of a bug they never fixed.
FNV has quite a lot of stuff Obsidian broke in the engine and never got fixed... They broke the audio for example, that is why they couldn't have environmental music like in FO3, and instead had to hand place audio markers that play the environmental music in the area of the marker.
The engine of both games is full of bugs too, the TTW team have been fixing then for a while and usually sharing those with modders that maintain the unofficial bug fixing mods, but even with the tools we have now, some engine bugs can't be fixed without the source code.
Also one of the reasons a lot of people make mods for Bethesda games, is because they are easy to make. 99% of all mods for all Bethesda games are junk and/or badly made and will usually break something in the games. It might not even be the modder's fault, many times it's because the mods were made long ago, before better modding tools and knowledge existed. But there are still plenty of mods out there that are just horribly made.
I also better mention that most Bethesda games mods don't take that much to make either. Very few of them take years to make, most might take less than a week to a month to be made.
Classic Fallout total conversions (like Fallout 1.5 Resurrection, Fallout of Nevada, etc) usually take way longer to make than 99.9% of all mods for Bethesda games.
Hmm, FO3 and FNV engines can't even have real shadows. There's also no PC model for first person, so your character has no reflection, that's why all mirrors in Bethesda games are always foggy and never reflect anything... FO3 engine is so bad that won't run out of the box for the vast majority of Windows 10 users, it might work for a small percentage of users after using workarounds and installing junk in your computer/game and it will still crash constantly (as in every 15 to 30 minutes, when a player enters certain areas, when a player uses certain weapons, etc). The reason why most of the TTW users install it is just to be able to play on modern systems.
We have a saying over at the TTW team "it's amazing that these games run at all".
On the other hand, I just installed my old disk version of Fallout 2 the other day (because of some idiot on the Codex complaining about the start or something) and it worked out of the box.
I wouldn't call these engines sophisticated to be honest. They are kept together by "spit and chewing gum" most of the time.
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