It's again that time of the year ... or Muslim bashing!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Jul 16, 2016.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Well, I always thought you don't argue with someone who's crazy and holds a gun. But that's just me.
  2. The notorious OVB

    The notorious OVB Minster of Truth

    Dec 28, 2016
    He wasn't thinking about himself though, he was trying to stop the shooter so others could GTFO, he just found arguing to be the best way to do that, even if it was quite stupid to do so.
  3. GonZo_626

    GonZo_626 Well Shit!

    Jul 29, 2016
    "A Hero is someone who steps up when everyone else backs down", this man did what he could, yes it may be dumb for himself but that does not mean he may have saved people lives with his actions. Personally I think running to and trying to disarm said crazy person would be a dumb thing to do for yourself, and the right thing to do for everyone.
  4. The notorious OVB

    The notorious OVB Minster of Truth

    Dec 28, 2016
    Yep, let me try and disarm this guy from my apartment window, genius idea, let me just grab my ten fishing rods or something.
  5. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Reminds me of this dude in Mexico, who was shooting random travellers in a metro station (man, Mexicans and Muslims, eh!?) and this chubby uncle-dad-type who relentlessly launches himself at the gunman, recieves bullets, one after the other, tumbles around, gets the fuck back up, all swiss-cheese'd, goes for the gun again, goes down, gets back up, goes for the gun again

    He dies - SO hard...

    In the end the gunman is emptying everything in this poor chub's face

    but what a gallant sacrifice. Or stupid sacrifice.

    It's the same as above: Stupid, for him. Gallant, for everyone else.
  6. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I am not so sure about that.

    There was this deranged teenager that threw a mask over his face, went to a school and started going from classroom to classroom shooting randomly at everyone with his handgun, up to the point when a teacher in the hallway stoped him by saying his name and that he has now to shoot him too, to which the teenager responded "Naw, it's enough for today", in that moment the teacher grabed the young guy, throwing him in a classroom and locking him up. The teenager ended up killing him self when the police arrived.

    This was crazy no doubts about it, but the teacher didn't put anyone else but himself in danger.

    Arguing with a crazy person, that might or might not randomly shoot at others, isn't the most intelligent way to stop someone, that's all I am saying. But that's my opinion. What if the guy started shooting at the balcony or some buildings around him and eventually hitting someone? Would people still call this old fart heroic? I am not so sure about that ... when people start to get on a killing spree they do it beacuse they they are already frustrated and angry, making them even MORE frustrated and angry. Again, I just don't see how that could do any good. And remember, I saw the video and I understand German. Who knows really what the trigger is for those people? Hence why often enough the only way to stop them, is to gun them down.

    If this kind of tactic would work so well, we would never see negotations happen, but only insults thrown around. Look, I am not blaming that old cranky guy. I am just saying, everyone was damn lucky that the guy wasn't simply starting to shoot at everyone again due to the frustration.
  7. BigGuyCIA

    BigGuyCIA Mildly Dipped

    Oct 26, 2016
    The shooter is still accountable for his own actions, regardless of whether or not he was taunted and ridiculed before or after the shooting.

    Tensions run high in these situations, and the guy yelling at the shooter was pissed. Can't blame him for that. It's easy to play the role of Captain hindsight after everything is said and done without putting yourself into the same situation that these guys were in.
  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    That's why I said that I was taught not to argue with batshit crazy people that have a gun and just finished shooting a couple of random bystanders. But hey! That's me.

    By the way, don't insult my or your intelligence here by thinking I would do some victim blaming here. When I was a teenager, a police officer once explained to our class how bad viollence is by using a known criminal as example who stabed someone who called him a son of a whore and that the crazy idiot is now in jail, none of us said the criminal shouldn't get a punishment, but seriously, how often do you think you can step on a snake and not expect to be bitten? Kinda funy how the police officer became more and more irritated by our answers, that the guy should have maybe thought twice about insulting one of the most dangerous people in town - everyone in class knew who he was talking about.

    That was the environment I have kinda grown up with, I had the luck that some people taught me, to watch my steps and actually think about the consquences of what I say, that I should maybe not insult every random stranger just beacuse I feel like it or beacuse I think it is my 'right' to be pissed right now, that you should sometimes swallow your anger and all that. Sure, yes, hit those criminals with everything the jurisdiction has to offer, but how is that gona help you when the asshole stabed you to death because you couldn't shut your mouth? The same shit with my room mate who refuses to buy a light for his fucking byiycle. Why should I care if the cars can see me! I am bicycle user! And even if they hit me, I will be right in court! Yeah, you troglodyte, but how's that helping you when you sit on your ass with a broken spine ...

    What I am talking about here is simply common sense, rational thinking, considering the consquences to your actions.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
  9. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    Of course he is a dude. He built things.
  10. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    And he has a long white beard
  11. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    And he impregnated a woman.
  12. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
  13. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008

    For starters, I don't see how that thing is giving you any kind of protection. Like as if someone's deciding to rape a women, it's just about "sex" and sticking his Penis into a Vagina. Curious if those pants also protect her from a rock to the head or if the guy decides to strangle her once he realizes he can't get in to her 'pants'. But yes, it's a great way to make money I guess and selling those kind of products to people that feel constantly 'anxious' about men raping them.

    Second, that kind of shit fear mongering happens all the time. Do we really have to get in to that rape-statistic again? Statistically in Germany almost EVERY rape is done by Germans - what surprise, so technically we should be actually more worried about the ... Germans!.
    The article mentions that she got that idea because she encountered 3 drunk men which had nothing better to do but to throw insults at her while she was jogging. Wow! That equals rape!

    But yes, we git it. Rape happens only when you're a muslim.
  14. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Native Germans, or imported ones? This doesn't look as a bunch of Prussians to me:
    Fake news or what?
  15. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Most of the numbers, if I remember correctly are released at the end of a year. So actually, I have no clue how the statistic for 2017 is, but usually the BKA is a pretty good source. So I am reading for the first time, that they are not 'thrust-worthy' or distorting the statistics.
    For example, they mention also things that actually make sense in my opinion. Like to include only cases into a statistic, which have been actually solved. Just recently, the owner of a bar in Germany was charged with serious allegations, because he created a false case of 'mass rape' which never happend, after the police investigated the case.
    Besides it often is (sadly) impossible to say if something did or didn't happen, if the case isn't 'soloved'. Like let us say if someone dissapears for example, you can't say the was murdered, if you don't find the body. Even if there is a strong case for it, so what do you do now? Do you throw the case to the 'murder' statistic or just to the 'missing person report'? What if the body turns up after you listed the case to the 'missing person report'? You would have to constantly change everything.

    However, sexual assault or even rape isn't THAT uncommon on large festivals as it might seem (and I am pretty confident that is not only true for Germany), even without the 'immigrants'. No one's giving a flying fuck what happens each year at the Oktoberfest, some of the largest festival of the year, and the fact that it sees a relatively huge amount of sexual assault among many other crimes, of which some are more serious than others. And why? Beacause it generates a ton of money for Bavaria and Munich. And I can tell you, the image of drunk italians, russians or americans runing around puking at every corner isn't something I am looking forward to - I am living in Munich by the way. But, so be it. It's just a few days of the year.

    I am not questioning the fact that there are criminal immigrants, but I do question the frequencey at which rate it happens. For starters, to my knowledge, there are only very few actual 'hard' statistics on the case, in other words there is relatively little reliable data. Our government doesn't make much of a difference between someone who's 'born' in Germany and owns German papers but is the child of immigrants, and someone who's a 'biological' German, for the lack of better words. Under the law, they are all the same. Call it the fear of being seen as 'nazis', but we do not have 'lists' where someone is registered as child of polish, russian or turkish immigrants or what ever if he has german papers.

    And why should we? People that are born here and attended german schools for all their life, have pretty much grown up in this society. It doesn't make sense to 'divide' people in categories, like a racial profiling.

    Second, the statistics of the BKA, as far as I can say, are at the very least very reliable when it comes to crimes in general, as far as ALL Germans are concerned. They also did surveys regarding refugees, and they actually comitt less crimes compared to Germans, this is possible beacuse refugees are not treated by the law like German citizens, for example they have less rights in general.
    What you can do however, is to look at those parts of Germany, with the fewest immigrants, like Saxony which has maybe a 4% muslim population and compare crime statistics from here with areas with relatively high numbers of immigrants. If I remember correctly the numbers in crimes, doesn't differ THAT heavily. It is no secret that for example that drug related crimes are controlled by neo-nazi groups in some parts of Germany. Yet, you often hear something about 'turkish' family clans with their crime business. How comes no one gives a shit about all the 'disappearing' witnesses in the NSU process?

    Imagine if a muslim group would have killed white christian Germans over the last 10 years and no one bothered to do some investigation during that time and suddenly very important files would dissapear and witnesses beeing killed during the trial. An outrage of epic proporations would go trough the German media and population. But, since we're talking about 'germans' here ...
  16. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Yes, Sweden for instance. They've invented dat enchanted Bracelet +1 against rape, so they are safe now:
    (I kid, the bracelet turned out to be too weak against potent black magic actually.)
    Interesting cultural difference, you Teutonic barbarians! :P
    Fun fact - our biggest annual music festival Pohoda passed without a single sexual incident reported last year and I actually don't remember a single rape incident from here reported ever. Oktoberfest is much bigger though, there's only a few tens of thousands people from all across the Europe visiting Pohoda every year. And there's much more soft drugs distributed than alcohol here, that might be another reason. (Just for the record, the number of moslem visitors is close to zero.)

    Don't play that racial profiling card on me again, mate. This is moslem bashing thread, religion is not a race.
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    *Shrugs* Yeah some festivals seem to be worse than others. I don't know, maybe it has something to do with the music? Wacken, one of the largest Rock/Metal festivals in Europa, has acutally very few reported crimes. Same with Rock am Ring, like from 90 000 people only 337 reported crimes for I think 2014 or 15. But that's just what I have read in some article. At least after googling it. Which well surprised me.
    Of course, just the stuff that is 'reported' I am pretty sure that people do all sorts of illegal stuff, like taking drugs, which is illegal, but doesn't necessarily hurt someone.

    Which makes it even worse, as you can easily 'lie' about your religion as you can't simply do a blood test, so any profiling about it would be kinda moot in my opinion, even IF we would get the idea to say, no muslim allowed. Or we start to seriously check everyones facebook pages, their google history, the people they talk with and so on in other words seriously changing our current privacy laws ... and in 20 years we end up like China or worse ... who knows. Google is already getting all kinds of request from companies, beacuse they want to know something about an applicant, and we don't have to get in to Snowden and the NSA I guess. I am not sure if I want to live in such a society.

    I am all for fighting terrorism and crime. But I also think we should always keep a sense of proportionalty when we talk about the subject:

    But, talking about religion and racism, I think the nazis have easily proven, how it can be tied together and if enough people parrot it, it becomes a 'fact'. They classified Jews as a race, and even in the 1930s some people thought that was bogus, but that didn't keep the authorities from reating it like a race. I remember this documentary about the Wannenseeconference, and a secretary asked one of the nazi officials about the 'Rassengesetze' which classify Germans by 'blood' and that it doesn't make sense since judaism is a 'religion'. The answer the official gave was basicaly, don't worry my dear, I don't understand it either, and I have spend years to make those laws. And everyone in the room laughed.

    I would assume that even today, many people judge others by their looks first and compare that with the 'image' they have in mind, I mean stereotypes come from somewhere. Take a black guy with the name of Mohamad, what would most Germans think here? Which makes it even more awesome, if such a person suddenly starts to talk with a perfect Bavarian dialect ;). I mean not ALL stereotypes are wrong though, it doesn't take a degree in rocket science to assume that 'most' turkish people in Germany are muslims and that a large majority of Germans are christian. Of course that's not a race, but since when has that bothered people to treat it as such?
    I think it was pretty clear what the travel bann in the US was supposed to be and I think it is pretty clear that religion played some role in the racial profiling in Cologne as well. I am not saying it isn't a complex topic after all.

    It doesn't matter anyway because what ever if we talk about religion or races, profiling has proven to be a rather bad way to prevent or fight crimes.
  18. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    Okay then. I'd suggest you getting that nifty anti-rape pants for your next Oktoberfest visit though, better safe than sorry! :whatever:
  19. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    And you continue preaching easy solutions for complex problems ;).
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  20. valcik

    valcik Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 20, 2008
    What solutions do you mean? What did I preach exactly? Elaborate.