Anyone else think this whole 'Synth' thing has gone too far?

[Hardboiled Android]

Fair enough, but I think the main problem with the Railroad is that they expect you to buy into the fact that Synths are humans. Sure they act like humans, function like humans, but if you cut them open you aren't going to see organs, you're going to see machinery mixed with organs.

This is incorrect. During the assembly of the Synth, the only component we see of a Synth that is potentially inhuman are their bones, but they could be alive, and they're visually identical regardless. If you cut open a Synth, you're just going to see organs. Otherwise people could just be run through an x-ray to make sure they're fully human. As to recall codes and apparent quirks of their psycholgoies- it's conditioning. A fully adult mind with no memories or convictions is extremely malleable. Just put it through hypnosis and brainwashing laden education, and you can make human beings that resemble machines.

 

[Vergil]

Thinking on Kellog's Frosted Flakes here for a second. Why the hell aren't the Institute focusing more on technology that let's humans live for hundreds of years and still function? Even Mr. House and the Think Tank had to do some body fuckery to achieve similar results. I get that sex slave droids Synths are all the rage but it seems like life extending augmentations that are proven to function on a hard boiled wasteland wanderer would be a bit more important.

 

[Izak]

That's an awfully broad statement to make. Scientists aren't some sort of super-men above ego and personal interest. After all, plenty of scientists study fields that are utterly useless too mankind.

Do you think the philosophy, political science, literature, etc. teachers and students would allow the Institute to devolve into the faction it is in Fallout 4? These areas of study would provide a deeply ethical side to the Institute (and they might have acted as the working class before synth production, now that I think about it).

 

[Ragemage]

snip

You realize you're talking about creating life from machinery right? Synths are robots, they are not people. Anything resembling emotion and caring in these synths is still AI, man-made. I don't care if people can be brainwashed into acting like a robot, they're still human. A robot is a robot, it is not alive. You can go into the Institute and see these things being made. You're also forgetting the giant synth component that goes into every synth. It's clearly not some small little detail because it's the main way to tell if someone is a synth or not, as proven by Covenant's experiments.

The game could have done a much better job of showing Synths becoming too human for their own good, but it didn't. In the end they still feel like nothing more than machines that have been programmed with humanity. The key word there being programmed. Fallout 4 tried to be edgy and ask philosophical questions like "When does AI stop being AI" but at the end of the day they couldn't even come up with a plausible reason as to why Shaun's cancer can't be cured despite the fact the Institute has literally 6 different ways they could cure it. There's no point in defending this shit.

 

[Ragemage]

Thinking on Kellog's Frosted Flakes here for a second. Why the hell aren't the Institute focusing more on technology that let's humans live for hundreds of years and still function? Even Mr. House and the Think Tank had to do some body fuckery to achieve similar results. I get that sex slave droids Synths are all the rage but it seems like life extending augmentations that are proven to function on a hard boiled wasteland wanderer would be a bit more important.

Because according to Inner Fish there's a terminal in Father's personal quarters that basically says he cancelled the Android project because reasons. So basically it's the exact same as the Super Mutants. Why are the Institute making infinite Super Mutants even though there's no benefit whatsoever? Because Father wills it.

 

[Vergil]

Because Father wills it.

I like to imagine that after going for the Institute ending my character immediately slapped the shit out of each and every Institute scientist for being such irredeemable retards.

 

[Ragemage]

I like to imagine that after going for the Institute ending my character immediately slapped the shit out of each and every Institute scientist for being such irredeemable retards.

Why would you even join those morons? I'll admit when I first heard about them I was tempted to join them too, following the logic of "Oh they can't really be THAT bad". Until I found out every single piece of propaganda about them was absolutely true. From the nonsensical kidnappings, to making all the Super Mutants without cause, to destroying entire towns just because a little girl had a component thing they could have easily just taken from her, and so forth and so on.

Instead I sided with the Railroad, which, in retrospect, is probably just as bad. I basically released an army of brainwashed robots who think they're people onto the world.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

You realize you're talking about creating life from machinery right? Synths are robots, they are not people.

Don't spot too many machines in there.

Synths are biological copies of Shaun. Possibly with fake bones, though that's up in the air. Constructed by men, but then again, so are babies.

Anything resembling emotion and caring in these synths is still AI, man-made.

Yes, and a plant grown by human hands as opposed to one outdoors also hold a similar dichotomy. But they are functionally indistinguishable.

I don't care if people can be brainwashed into acting like a robot, they're still human.

Because their genetic signature tells you? Well, I got some news about Synths...

A robot is a robot, it is not alive.

Well, by that logic, a Gen 3 Synth is not a robot. They operate on the basis of biological functions, they are made up of biological material, they need to eat, sleep and drink.

You can go into the Institute and see these things being made.

Yes, and they're clearly biological.

Y

ou're also forgetting the giant synth component that goes into every synth.

It does not go into every Synth. Many Gen 3s have no component.

It's clearly not some small little detail because it's the main way to tell if someone is a synth or not, as proven by Covenant's experiments.

Covenant is unable to distinguish between Synth and non-Synth.

IThe game could have done a much better job of showing Synths becoming too human for their own good, but it didn't. In the end they still feel like nothing more than machines that have been programmed with humanity. The key word there being programmed.

I would certainly agree with the first part. The idea someone else proposed, that they had killed/ enslaved the humans of the Institute, would be far more interesting and logical.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Do you think the philosophy, political science, literature, etc. teachers and students would allow the Institute to devolve into the faction it is in Fallout 4? These areas of study would provide a deeply ethical side to the Institute (and they might have acted as the working class before synth production, now that I think about it).

By the same logic, Big MT is ridiculous. It's science for the sake of science, knowledge for the sake of knowledge, at any cost. And I can assure you, people in STEM fields aren't any sort of magical ethicists compared to the rest of humanity. It certainly didn't stop the Camp Doctors, or von Braun from using slave labor.

 

[Vergil]

Why would you even join those morons? I'll admit when I first heard about them I was tempted to join them too, following the logic of "Oh they can't really be THAT bad". Until I found out every single piece of propaganda about them was absolutely true. From the nonsensical kidnappings, to making all the Super Mutants without cause, to destroying entire towns just because a little girl had a component thing they could have easily just taken from her, and so forth and so on.

Instead I sided with the Railroad, which, in retrospect, is probably just as bad. I basically released an army of brainwashed robots who think they're people onto the world.

I joined them cause I was already at the institute and couldn't be fucked to go all the way over to the Sisterhood of Sissys, the (OUR SECRET PASSOWRD IS OUR OWN NAME) Railroad or grind Peston Gravy's (hey go clear out this building again while I jack off in your house dickweed) quests.

 

[Ragemage]

snip

First of all, that video you just posted pretty much shows they're made with machinery, they are factory made. Humans are made completely different and the fact that you're comparing the 2 is fairly laughable.

Synths may need to eat, drink, and breath, sure, but they don't age. Synths are stuck at the same age permanentely, rendering the fact that they're just like us completely irrelevant. If a person stays the same age their entire life and never shows any sign of aging/growing up, that makes them vampires or one of the Lost Boys, not a normal functioning person. This, also, makes the so-called child synth even more disturbing when you realize Shaun wants you to look after a 10 year old boy forever, like in that cruddy movie AI by Stephen Spielberg.

Only some parts of them are biological. They still run off machinery to function. That skeleton and outer coating on them isn't human, it's what makes them tick. Before they get the skin and organs/muscles slapped on them they basically look like a stripped down Gen 1 Synth.

I would chalk up there not being a synth component on every Gen 3 Synth being more about game balancing than part of the lore. It's stated in-game that Synths run off this Component. In fact, if you sneak behind a Gen 3 Synth and steal their component, it kills them instantly. Thus if every single Gen 3 Synth + Courser had these they'd be way too easy to kill, thus it's a balance issue, not proven lore.

And for that matter, you're wrong about Covenant. They're slowly learning how to distinguish the two. Dr. Roslyn Chambers (this lady: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Roslyn_Chambers ) states that the SAFE test now has a 1 in 4 chance of finding a Synth, and for that matter, she was completely right about that girl she has trapped down there. If you let Chambers fry that girl whom she claims is a synth, you can go up to that girl's body and see that she is, in fact, a Synth. So clearly there are some differences in the way a Synth's "brain" is hardwired compared to a human's.

 

[Izak]

By the same logic, Big MT is ridiculous. It's science for the sake of science, knowledge for the sake of knowledge, at any cost. And I can assure you, people in STEM fields aren't any sort of magical ethicists compared to the rest of humanity. It certainly didn't stop the Camp Doctors, or von Braun from using slave labor.

Yes Big MT is ridiculous, I don't think I understand your argument in the slightest; you seem to be defending the fact that the Institute doesn't follow any morals by stating that other scientific divisions didn't follow any moral teachings but, hey here's a fact for you, most scientists aren't giant dickheads, most have humanitarian goals and, it makes no sense that the Institute doesn't. Do you think that, if in real life, a nuclear catastrophe occurred, the staff and students of MIT would huddle underground and refuse to help people? I'm going to assume that they would help as best they could so why the fuck doesn't the institute?

 

[Vergil]

There are legitimate moral and ethical philosophic issues about synthetic humans like Synths but like before, I couldn't give enough of a shit because Fallout 4's writing was too terrible for me to feel anything but mild annoyance.

 

[Ragemage]

By the same logic, Big MT is ridiculous. It's science for the sake of science, knowledge for the sake of knowledge, at any cost. And I can assure you, people in STEM fields aren't any sort of magical ethicists compared to the rest of humanity. It certainly didn't stop the Camp Doctors, or von Braun from using slave labor.

Well yes, Big MT is like that for a reason. It's because the entire Think Tank ARE INSANE. They've been insane for decades, trapped in a logic loop that makes them think the Big MT is literally the only thing left in the entire world because of Doctor Mobius. They've gone completely insane. The reason they make all the insane shit they do is because they think it has no consequences anymore, they think they're the last people left.

As a matter of fact, one of the Big MT scientists made Nightstalkers and Cazadors. You can confront him about this and ask him why the fuck he would release such a horrible creature onto the Mojave. No matter how much you try to convince him though, you can't convince him that his creatures have actually escaped the Big MT and are breeding. He thinks his creations are not only sterile but can't escape, because the Think Tank can't escape. It's a logic loop.

That's why the Think Tank are the way they are. The Institute meanwhile is acting like they want to help the Commonwealth. Unlike Big MT, they know there's an entire surface world above them, and they act like they're really concerned about it, but instead they act like the Big MT, as in, completely insane. That's the problem with the Institute. They act like the Big MT when there's no reason they should be acting like the Big MT, because it makes them look evil as Hell. They don't even have the excuse of not knowing there's a big bustling world above them. If the Institute genuinely thought they were the last humans left on Earth, so releasing all their crazy experiments onto the surface wouldn't mean anything, then that would clear up SO many problems right there! But they don't. And therefore they make no sense as a faction unless we're supposed to believe they're all completely crazy.

 

[Izak]

If only the Institute had a motivation and Fallout 4 had a karma system, then we wouldn't be grabbing at straws about the Institutes moral and ethical standpoints.

 

[Vergil]

I don't really care that the Institute is unethical. I care that they are unintelligent and utterly incompetent. The Think Tank were a bunch of disembodied brains floating around in Jello and they hatched a couple of plots less insane the than In(sane)stitute.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

First of all, that video you just posted pretty much shows they're made with machinery, they are factory made. Humans are made completely different and the fact that you're comparing the 2 is fairly laughable.

They're made of biological parts. How something is made has no bearing on its ultimate identity. Silicic crystals generated in a lab function exactly the same as quartz crystals that come about naturally, even though they are created under vastly different circumstances. To say that something not made in the way nature intended is somehow therefore totally foreign is bizarre- would you say that test tube babies come out any differently from normal ones?

Synths may need to eat, drink, and breath, sure, but they don't age. Synths are stuck at the same age permanentely, rendering the fact that they're just like us completely irrelevant. If a person stays the same age their entire life and never shows any sign of aging/growing up, that makes them vampires or one of the Lost Boys, not a normal functioning person. This, also, makes the so-called child synth even more disturbing when you realize Shaun wants you to look after a 10 year old boy forever, like in that cruddy movie AI by Stephen Spielberg.

... or they age really, really slowly. But even if they don't age a lick, I don't see why we then must turn to genocide and outcastry

Only some parts of them are biological. They still run off machinery to function.

[Citation needed]

That skeleton and outer coating on them isn't human,

Possibly. Or possibly they're dead till they're infused with that vital fluid. But considering it's impossible to determine, even for the Brotherhood of Steel under a microscope, whether or not someone is a Synth, I'd say that it's a safe bet that they are biological down to the molecular level. Whether or not they were prior to being dipped with vital fluid, who cares? They're alive now.

Tit's what makes them tick.

[Citation needed]

Before they get the skin and organs/muscles slapped on them they basically look like a stripped down Gen 1 Synth.

Not really. They look like a skinless human with grey musculature.

I would chalk up there not being a synth component on every Gen 3 Synth being more about game balancing than part of the lore. It's stated in-game that Synths run off this Component.

By whom?

In fact, if you sneak behind a Gen 3 Synth and steal their component, it kills them instantly.

Yes, and if I rip out an arrow stuck into a mans vital artery, he will also likely die. That doesn't make the arrow vital to his biological inner workings.

Thus if every single Gen 3 Synth + Courser had these they'd be way too easy to kill, thus it's a balance issue, not proven lore.

Considering how OP sneak attacks are, I wouldn't think it would make much of a difference.

And for that matter, you're wrong about Covenant. They're slowly learning how to distinguish the two. Dr. Roslyn Chambers (this lady: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Roslyn_Chambers ) states that the SAFE test now has a 1 in 4 chance of finding a Synth, and for that matter, she was completely right about that girl she has trapped down there. If you let Chambers fry that girl whom she claims is a synth, you can go up to that girl's body and see that she is, in fact, a Synth. So clearly there are some differences in the way a Synth's "brain" is hardwired compared to a human's.

Differences? But most of the people who respond in a way Chambers claim is characteristic of a Synth are humans. So it would seem Synths are hardwired to think like some people...

But, additionally, what percentage of the population (more specifically, of wandering vagrants and traders that are often isolated) that is likely to be picked up by Chambers or Covenant is Synth? We just don't know, and we can't say whether her findings represent a difference in the Synth psyche (which also corresponds to fully human Wastelanders) or as a census of the Synth population in the wasteland

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Yes Big MT is ridiculous, I don't think I understand your argument in the slightest; you seem to be defending the fact that the Institute doesn't follow any morals by stating that other scientific divisions didn't follow any moral teachings but, hey here's a fact for you, most scientists aren't giant dickheads, most have humanitarian goals and, it makes no sense that the Institute doesn't. Do you think that, if in real life, a nuclear catastrophe occurred, the staff and students of MIT would huddle underground and refuse to help people? I'm going to assume that they would help as best they could so why the fuck doesn't the institute?

Yes. Human cultures do horrible fucking things, even in good times... say, isn't that the whole point of the series?

 

[Hardboiled Android]

That's why the Think Tank are the way they are. The Institute meanwhile is acting like they want to help the Commonwealth. Unlike Big MT, they know there's an entire surface world above them, and they act like they're really concerned about it, but instead they act like the Big MT, as in, completely insane. That's the problem with the Institute. They act like the Big MT when there's no reason they should be acting like the Big MT, because it makes them look evil as Hell. They don't even have the excuse of not knowing there's a big bustling world above them. If the Institute genuinely thought they were the last humans left on Earth, so releasing all their crazy experiments onto the surface wouldn't mean anything, then that would clear up SO many problems right there! But they don't. And therefore they make no sense as a faction unless we're supposed to believe they're all completely crazy.

I would agree, the Institute are very badly written, and their stated goals vs action show no correlation. I started this argument because Isak made the claim that it was insulting and unrealistic that scientists would do such awful things because scientists have ethics. Well, ethics are mostly an artifact of culture, and highly flexible, especially coming off of a Nazi-esque america that sought to advance at literally any cost. This is seen in the Robobrain facility- which, IMO,was one of the best things Bethesda has written in this whole game.

 

[Izak]

Yes. Human cultures do horrible fucking things, even in good times... say, isn't that the whole point of the series?

Dude, I'm really struggling to understand your argument. No that's not the point of the series; Factions like the FotA, BoS, NCR, the Legion, Etc. all understand that because they have power and resources transcending ordinary groups it's their responsibility to spread ideologies and laws that will benefit the wasteland. Yet the Institute, a group that should have the firmest grasp of the responsibilities that power grants have decided to hole up in a fucking hole and, let everybody whither away, why? Why the fuck has the most learned faction in Fallout lore ignored the most basic fucking tenants of politics? It boggles my fucking mind that these guys were written in the way they were.
Anyway, could you please state your argument? I'm not entirely sure we're talking about the same things.