Fallout: The Series now the most successful Amazon show ever

[Bradylama]

Fargo isn't criminally underrated, the problem is that it couldn't maintain the level of quality the first two seasons had so people stopped talking about it.

No, the Gulpers were birthed from humans. We saw the pregnancy video where a woman gets eaten by her own Gulper spawn.

It's the most horrifying moment in the show.

But yes, if said woman had a sister or brother who had a one-eyed child, then those Gulpers could be the Overseer's Great uncle(s).

It's a one off joke but Gulpers don't need to have human spawn.

The women used for raising gulpers were wastelanders or civilians who fell in through the trapdoor at the fake hospital. When gulpers are birthed they devour their mothers like piranhas. When the mutant uprising happened, all we see of it is the gulper who drags off the Hawthornes, who Benjamin names as "my great uncle Peter on my mom's side." There is no sign of there being any mutants at Vault 4 other than the gulpers, so we have to conclude that all the humanoid mutants are descendants of the gulpers.

Now how is that possible, CT? The gulpers kill their mothers on instinct, yet there is also a named gulper presumably with human intelligence who was the BROTHER of a female something or other who was Benjamin's direct ancestor. If gulpers reproduce their own humanoid offspring, why aren't the wild gulpers making humanoid mutants? There should have been a race of wild one-eyed forehead-eared mutants running all over southern California the whole time. Are we supposed to conclude that gulpers had sex with human women? The same creatures with fingers for teeth, and whose instinct is to devour every living thing whole?

 

[R.Graves]

Fargo isn't criminally underrated, the problem is that it couldn't maintain the level of quality the first two seasons had so people stopped talking about it.

absurd. especially because the entire second half of game of thrones was dogshit and people somehow didnt notice until the last season. same thing happened to lost back in the day. people always talk about how bad lost's ending was when it had been going off the deep end since at least season 4. people didnt notice the walking dead had fell off until like season 5. the masses take way longer to notice when something is becoming dogwater than us wierdos. besides fargo season 3 is good and ive heard nothing but good things about season 5. then again you saying this is underrating it so nvm thanks for proving my point.

 

[CT Phipps]

The women used for raising gulpers were wastelanders or civilians who fell in through the trapdoor at the fake hospital. When gulpers are birthed they devour their mothers like piranhas. When the mutant uprising happened, all we see of it is the gulper who drags off the Hawthornes, who Benjamin names as "my great uncle Peter on my mom's side." There is no sign of there being any mutants at Vault 4 other than the gulpers, so we have to conclude that all the humanoid mutants are descendants of the gulpers.

Now how is that possible, CT? The gulpers kill their mothers on instinct, yet there is also a named gulper presumably with human intelligence who was the BROTHER of a female something or other who was Benjamin's direct ancestor. If gulpers reproduce their own humanoid offspring, why aren't the wild gulpers making humanoid mutants? There should have been a race of wild one-eyed forehead-eared mutants running all over southern California the whole time. Are we supposed to conclude that gulpers had sex with human women? The same creatures with fingers for teeth, and whose instinct is to devour every living thing whole?

Okay, that makes no sense. They made Gulpers but not all of the mutants made at the place are Gulpers as we see other mutants throughout the place in the background other than the Overseer. Doesn't it make more sense that they did other experiments? Especially since there's no sign Gulpers are intelligent or have humanoid offspring?

 

[Bradylama]

Okay, that makes no sense. They made Gulpers but not all of the mutants made at the place are Gulpers as we see other mutants throughout the place in the background other than the Overseer. Doesn't it make more sense that they did other experiments? Especially since there's no sign Gulpers are intelligent or have humanoid offspring?

Without acknowledging or showing that there were other experiments we don't really have anything to go on. Hawthorne says they were crossbreeding humans with radioactive resistant species, but all we see are the gulpers who are a human-axolotl hybrid. All the facilities we see were designed for gulper breeding, including the specimen tank that the dead gulper is floating in, the cryo tubes full of pregnant women, and the birthing chamber that could only exist for birthing aquatic hybrids. None of the other levels for the vault are off limits, only the level where they were breeding gulpers. The existence of Vault 4's mutants means that the Vault 4 experiments were actually a resounding success, so why didn't Hawthorne note it or conclude that the experiments were done? Even Benjamin's throwaway line places the vault 4 natives in the direct line of descent from the gulpers. There's no reasoning your way out of this. None of it adds up.

 

[Bradylama]

I didn't mention this in my notes, but the mere existence of Vault 4 breaks the setting. Vault 4, like Vault 33 has its entrance door sticking right out of the ground as the most identifiable landmark in the area. Everybody would have known about it, including The Master. The Master would have cracked it open thinking he's gonna be able to dip some prime normals, when lo and behold there's an entire vault of viable reproducing mutants. No first generation FEV and no dipping required. They're even radiation resistant. The Master could have used the research from Vault 4 to make the Unity actually viable, but instead of everyone being a dumbed down or smarty pants super mutant they'd be relatively normal people with a weird feature or two. Big deal. Would have actually saved the world.

 

[CT Phipps]

I didn't mention this in my notes, but the mere existence of Vault 4 breaks the setting. Vault 4, like Vault 33 has its entrance door sticking right out of the ground as the most identifiable landmark in the area. Everybody would have known about it, including The Master. The Master would have cracked it open thinking he's gonna be able to dip some prime normals, when lo and behold there's an entire vault of viable reproducing mutants. No first generation FEV and no dipping required. They're even radiation resistant. The Master could have used the research from Vault 4 to make the Unity actually viable, but instead of everyone being a dumbed down or smarty pants super mutant they'd be relatively normal people with a weird feature or two. Big deal. Would have actually saved the world.

Vault 4 doesn't break the setting unlike Vault 33, IMHO. The Master is looking for non-irradiated, non-FEV infected people to turn into hyper intelligent mutants. Super Mutants are Super after all, not just mutants.

Given the reaction to discovering his plans are nonviable is to commit suicide versus modifying them or working on fixing the problem (like Lieutenant plans), I don't think a bunch of mutated animal-human DNA splicees are going to be of any use for his experiments.

The bigger question is why the Santa Monica Vaults weren't among the first popped open.

 

[Bradylama]

You don't think that the mere existence of the Vault 4 natives fulfills the Master's purpose? The FEV dipping process was the Master's way of saving the wasteland from itself, and the V4 natives make it irrelevant. If the Master had V4 dwellers to experiment with they could have come up with a way to make super mutants viable based on the FEV strain being experimented on in Vault 4. The Liu's plan to correct for sterilization is a pipe dream based on the hope that they can fuck around and the solution will present itself. If they knew about V4 then they have a working solution on hand already.

 

[CT Phipps]

You don't think that the mere existence of the Vault 4 natives fulfills the Master's purpose? The FEV dipping process was the Master's way of saving the wasteland from itself, and the V4 natives make it irrelevant. If the Master had V4 dwellers to experiment with they could have come up with a way to make super mutants viable based on the FEV strain being experimented on in Vault 4. The Liu's plan to correct for sterilization is a pipe dream based on the hope that they can fuck around and the solution will present itself. If they knew about V4 then they have a working solution on hand already.

Eh, the Masters plan is like three or four things.

1. He's very specifically trying to create a race that is united under his psychic powers in the Unity. Hence why he's doing so many experiments on Psykers in the basement of the Cathedral.

2. He's creating a specific new race with the Super Mutants meant to be super-strong, super-smart, eternally young ("immortal"), and immune to radiation.

3. The Super mutants are also fairly androgynous and lacking differences between themselves.

The vault-4 dwellers seem to be normal humans except for some weird qualities (though the Overseer could be immortal given that 219 years is a long time for a "Great Uncle" with the first generation revolting post-war) and we don't know how many Super Mutant traits they may possess. They may be fertile but they're certainly lacking in a lot of the Master's other qualities for his master race (and he calls it that).

So he knows they are unsuitable for turning into Super Mutants (which is the goal of getting unmutated Vault Dwellers) and he doesn't have any reason to want fertile human/mutants until he finds out about the sterility literally minutes before he commits suicide. Like I said, the Master turning on his plan so quickly was something I felt was a flaw but in-universe I suspect he's having an emotional breakdown because he's already committed a shit ton of atrocities in the view he was absolutely justified.

Trying to salvage the plan was never on the table once he realized FEV wasn't some miracle and his existence was justifiable.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Yeah, Vault 4 doesn't break the Master at all. The Master would no doubt be interested in the research and mutants at the Vault: The Master was interested in mutagenic research to refine his own processes after all. But as Vault 4 was not using the FEV (to our knowledge), it would not solve the Master's fundamental problem. The Master is interested in the FEV in particular because of the specific race that can be created out of it, the Super Mutants.

Vault 4's bigger problem is simply why the Master didn't discover it - or, for that matter, the NCR, or the Vault Dweller, given that the vault entrance is within visual distance of Shady Sands now.

 

[CT Phipps]

Yeah, Vault 4 doesn't break the Master at all. The Master would no doubt be interested in the research and mutants at the Vault: The Master was interested in mutagenic research to refine his own processes after all. But as Vault 4 was not using the FEV (to our knowledge), it would not solve the Master's fundamental problem. The Master is interested in the FEV in particular because of the specific race that can be created out of it, the Super Mutants.

Vault 4's bigger problem is simply why the Master didn't discover it - or, for that matter, the NCR, or the Vault Dweller, given that the vault entrance is within visual distance of Shady Sands now.

To be fair, they don't necessarily have to have not known about it. This Vault doesn't have any elements that require it to have been secret to the Master or NCR.

 

[Bradylama]

Nothing else can produce the kind of mutations seen in gulpers besides FEV. They never say FEV in this season but that's obviously what's behind a lot of things. They even made it so developing FEV was originally an idea Leon got from Vault-Tec.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

To be fair, they don't necessarily have to have not known about it. This Vault doesn't have any elements that require it to have been secret to the Master or NCR.

I suppose it's POSSIBLE that the Master could have discovered it and it could be in it's present state, but it doesn't seem particularly likely. Generally Super Mutants make a big mess, and they love to kidnap people to experiment on in more secure conditions, like the Cathedral which would just be a few days walk away (or quicker at a super mutant's gait). And, though Fallout 1 doesn't put the finest of points on it, the Master is tech-hungry and would more than likely want to strip or repurpose a lot of valuable technologically advanced assets from the Vault. But I guess it's possible that Super Mutants could have showed up, deported a few mutants for testing, and posted some guards that drifted away once the Master was killed without destroying Vault 4's society.

But NCR knowing about Vault 4 doesn't track at all. Why would Shady Sands have even been established if there was a friendly vault right there? And once we get into the NCR era, how could it have happened that the Mutants would have maintained their Vault-dweller culture? The NCR would desperately want to incorporate a Vault society with all of its advanced tech, and in spitting distance from the capital. Great economies there. Moreover - It's a huge security threat to have a functional Vault right on your doorstep, even if the inhabitants are friendly for the time being. But the show presents a very clear distinction between the Vault 4 dwellers and the NCR refugees, a distinction which wouldn't really exist if the Vault had been a part of NCR for a hundred years. By all rights it should have been turned into an industrial park/worker housing by one of the merchant clans.

Nothing else can produce the kind of mutations seen in gulpers besides FEV.

What mutation? Radiation resistance? Otherwise the gulpers seems ot be almost nothing like any FEV mutants. They're very clearly a "hybridization", a newly-born creature fully formed with genes from two seperate species. They're not at all like Super Mutants, Centaurs, or Floaters.

Radiation resistance is the only one that really matches FEV, but to this I'd say that there's a lot of ways to make an omlette. We are not told at all how that radiation resistance would be achieved. Perhaps it's a quad-helix situation, but I'd note that while quad-helix DNA is not a realistic means to achieving radiation resistance IRL, there are genes and phenotypes that offer better resistance to radiation than others IRL. The experiments in Vault 4 could have been pursuing one of these avenues, or some third exotic avenue. I'd also note that we don't even know if they succeeded in achieving radiation resistance, only that that was the aim.

It seems to me that if they had intended FEV specifically, they would have said it because of how much this show soys out over game reference. Not to say the whole thing is especially well thought through, I don't think the exact mechanics of what's going on will EVER be explained for the Vault 4 mutants, but my guess is the show runners intended "vague mutagen/gene splicing".

And thinking about it, how would you even create a human-axolotl hybrid in utero with FEV? I guess you'd have to implant axolotl and human embryos in a woman, stick an injection of the FEV in her belly, and let 'em fuse together? It seems like such a process would result in a lot of uncontrolled mutations, but who knows there'd probably be subtle ways to control the process.

They never say FEV in this season but that's obviously what's behind a lot of things. They even made it so developing FEV was originally an idea Leon got from Vault-Tec.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, you've watched the show more than I have and with a good deal more attention, but as I recall Vault-Tec doesn't give Leon the idea to develop the FEV, rather just the idea to experiment with it in vaults. Indeed I think he even says "Super Mutants" when he suggests the idea at the meeting, implying that FEV and its applications were already floating around West-Tek by the time of the meeting.

 

[Bradylama]

And thinking about it, how would you even create a human-axolotl hybrid in utero with FEV? I guess you'd have to implant axolotl and human embryos in a woman, stick an injection of the FEV in her belly, and let 'em fuse together? It seems like such a process would result in a lot of uncontrolled mutations, but who knows there'd probably be subtle ways to control the process.

You can pretty much make it work however you want. It's pulp sci fi. But that's also why you do need more material like failed mutations and vault 4 natives with more radical mutations. Guys with extra noses and ears are a total snoozefest. Where are the mutants with tardigrade or amoeba ancestry? Get creative with it. As it is now it's just Star Trek aliens with fewer prosthetics.

Even forgetting about the Master and his intentions or what he'd do with the Vault 4 natives, the mere existence of reproductively viable mutants has massive implications for the entire setting and it's literally silo'd off into a vault we're probably never going to see again.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, you've watched the show more than I have and with a good deal more attention, but as I recall Vault-Tec doesn't give Leon the idea to develop the FEV, rather just the idea to experiment with it in vaults. Indeed I think he even says "Super Mutants" when he suggests the idea at the meeting, implying that FEV and its applications were already floating around West-Tek by the time of the meeting.

The show plays fast and loose with dates and times so it's not exactly clear when the Vault-Tec conspiracy assembled. FEV wasn't discovered until the couple years before the Great War started, so there's no way to tell. Janey looks the same age in the flashbacks that she does during the Great War, so it can't possibly be happening that long before October 2077.

The other fact is that West-Tek doesn't need vaults to do human experimentation with FEV, they were already doing that at their own facilities and Mariposa. It's the founding incident of the Brotherhood even, lmao. But they needed to shoehorn in Leon's line about turning illegal immigrants into super mutants for the fanservice. The "illegal immigrants" line is stupid too for reasons I'm not getting into right now.

A lot of what the show is doing is just overwriting established lore so the showrunners can set up bad punchlines for jokes with no payoff.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

You can pretty much make it work however you want. It's pulp sci fi. But that's also why you do need more material like failed mutations and vault 4 natives with more radical mutations. Guys with extra noses and ears are a total snoozefest. Where are the mutants with tardigrade or amoeba ancestry? Get creative with it. As it is now it's just Star Trek aliens with fewer prosthetics.

I agree that the mutations were not creative enough. Really they're so mild that I would expect that more from a Wasteland community that was close to a source of persistent radiation, maybe with a bit of inbreeding thrown in for good measure. Gulpers are the only interesting mutants to come out of it, and those of course are not a part of the community.

I would say, though - tardigrade or amoeba hybrids would probably uhhh not work unless you have like a Kardashev 2 level of biotech.

Even forgetting about the Master and his intentions or what he'd do with the Vault 4 natives, the mere existence of reproductively viable mutants has massive implications for the entire setting and it's literally silo'd off into a vault we're probably never going to see again.

Not really. There are plenty of mutants in the Wasteland that are reproductively viable - indeed, technically every single creature out in the Wasteland is a mutant in some sense, some more obviously than others, and only some of them have viably speciated, but it's quite a few.

If we're discounting random mutation and only looking at 'anthropogenic' mutants, than there are still plenty of reproductively viable mutants - Molerats, Bloatflies (established in Fallout 3 as having been created as a part of a bioweapons project), Cazadores, Nightstalkers (both Big MT escapees), Deathclaws, Wannamingoes. I'm sure there are further I'm not thinking of. And this is without even trying to consider Fallout 4 or 76, where I'm sure there are further examples.

The Vault 4 Mutants are only SUPER notable a potentially setting-breaking if they were created with the FEV. But other than radiation resistance, there's really nothing to suggest this, and I even doubt it was authorial intent. Indeed, I think it's rather probable that was brought up in a writing session and shot down.

Though I would note, Bethesda has already broken the setting in this regard - the Grayditch Fireants in Fallout 3 were explicitly created with FEV, and they're reproductively viable. But we can ignore that, and the myriad other controversies regarding FEV and fertility that have arisen over the years.

The show plays fast and loose with dates and times so it's not exactly clear when the Vault-Tec conspiracy assembled. FEV wasn't discovered until the couple years before the Great War started, so there's no way to tell. Janey looks the same age in the flashbacks that she does during the Great War, so it can't possibly be happening that long before October 2077.

My vague impression was that it was happening very close to the time of the War, no earlier than 2076. But that was just a vague impression, I don't have anything rigorous to back it up.

The other fact is that West-Tek doesn't need vaults to do human experimentation with FEV, they were already doing that at their own facilities and Mariposa. It's the founding incident of the Brotherhood even, lmao. But they needed to shoehorn in Leon's line about turning illegal immigrants into super mutants for the fanservice. The "illegal immigrants" line is stupid too for reasons I'm not getting into right now.

A lot of what the show is doing is just overwriting established lore so the showrunners can set up bad punchlines for jokes with no payoff.

Hey, you're not going to catch me defending the writing of that board room scene, it's pretty egregious. As is the show as a whole. My point here is that, at least narrowly, Leon's suggestion doesn't overwrite the lore of the development of FEV, which is what's pertinent reault 4.

 

[Bradylama]

Not really. There are plenty of mutants in the Wasteland that are reproductively viable - indeed, technically every single creature out in the Wasteland is a mutant in some sense, some more obviously than others, and only some of them have viably speciated, but it's quite a few.

That's pretty much irrelevant. It's true that everyone who lives on the surface has had mild radiation and atmospheric FEV exposure in their genetic lineage, but some line has to be drawn to distinguish normal physiotypical humans and people who are so thoroughly mutated they're no longer "human" per se, like ghouls and super mutants. Until the show aired there were no known viable populations of human mutants.

The Vault 4 Mutants are only SUPER notable a potentially setting-breaking if they were created with the FEV. But other than radiation resistance, there's really nothing to suggest this, and I even doubt it was authorial intent. Indeed, I think it's rather probable that was brought up in a writing session and shot down.

Hawthorne says in his final holotape recording that they were trying to make radioresistant hybrids, so the show not acknowledging that the Vault 4 natives are radiation resistant is more something they didn't think about than it being intentionally cut. The whole script has "rough draft" written all over it. If you mean the FEV idea was shot down, I'm not sure why. FEV is all they know so they're going to use it in everything and wait to reveal it for super mutants or something. Is my guess.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

That's pretty much irrelevant. It's true that everyone who lives on the surface has had mild radiation and atmospheric FEV exposure in their genetic lineage, but some line has to be drawn to distinguish normal physiotypical humans and people who are so thoroughly mutated they're no longer "human" per se, like ghouls and super mutants. Until the show aired there were no known viable populations of human mutants.

Well Tunnelers are probably human in origin, but they've obviously speciated and are obviously reproductively viable.

I don't know if the Trogs are reproductively viable, they might only 'reproduce' by normal humans succumbing to the disease, and thereafter be infertile. Don't think the game says one way or the other.

In any case, in principle there's nothing that should rule out the possibility of speciated human mutants arising by some means other than FEV, it's just not depicted in any of the games heretofore outside of (probably) Tunnelers. Really I think it's more an oversight in the series heretofore that there haven't been more humanoid mutants depicted, I've been saying that for years.

The original games did have a fair few mentions of people with mild mutation in text description (extra fingers etc), and of course the number of dwarves was supposed to be from radiation. None of these ever formed an independent community or speciated, but there's also nothing to suggest that they were not reproductively viable.

Hawthorne says in his final holotape recording that they were trying to make radioresistant hybrids, so the show not acknowledging that the Vault 4 natives are radiation resistance is more something they didn't think about than it being intentionally cut. The whole script has "rough draft" written all over it.

I wasn't referring to that bit in a "behind-the-scenes" sense, just an in-universe lore sense. We don't know if the radioresistance scheme succeeded.

...or that's what I thought initially, but given the Gulpers live in explicitly radioactive pools of water, I suppose they must be at least as radioactively resistant as the average wasteland creature. Maybe the more humanoid mutants aren't.

In any case it's not really relevant because whether or not they're radioactively resistant is not decisive as to whether or not they were created with FEV. That's the only way this becomes a true oddity.

If you mean the FEV idea was shot down, I'm not sure why. FEV is all they know so they're going to use it in everything and wait to reveal it for super mutants or something. Is my guess.

As mentioned before, if they wanted it to literally and "lore-wise" be FEV, they would have said so because they would have gotten more goodboy points from slobbering fanboys for referncing something. It's not as though FEV would have been unknown to the writers given how prominent it is. It just seems likely to me that they would have thrown it around when talking about Vault 4, but someone (perhaps Loremaster Emil) remembered that all of that FEV stuff is pretty complicated and sometimes people get mad about it, so was probably for the best to just leave it vague how the mutants were created in Vault 4.

That's a very subjective assessment of course, I could be completely wrong. But the fact remains there's nothing in principle setting-breaking about Vault 4 until it can be demonstrated that they would have had to have used FEV.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Also as an aside - You say that ghouls and Super Mutants are so different as to not even be considered humans. While it's true they might pass outside of the human species, neither can represent a species in and of themselves: Neither can reproduce themselves by organic means or pass on their genes. They're mutants in the truest sense of the word, evolutionary dead-ends.

Another viable, speciated human mutant I thought of: Trogs from Van Buren, as opposed to the ones from Fallout 3. I don't know if we're every explicitly told how they reproduce, but it seems pretty clear from context it would have to have been organic.

 

[TheGM]

Something something FEV in the Atmosphere something inoculation something something.

 

[CT Phipps]

Nothing else can produce the kind of mutations seen in gulpers besides FEV. They never say FEV in this season but that's obviously what's behind a lot of things. They even made it so developing FEV was originally an idea Leon got from Vault-Tec.

Really? They did a great job dialing back FEV's use in the setting with the Ghouls decoupled from it.

Do we really want FEV added to non-Super Mutant plots?

I suppose it's POSSIBLE that the Master could have discovered it and it could be in it's present state, but it doesn't seem particularly likely. Generally Super Mutants make a big mess, and they love to kidnap people to experiment on in more secure conditions, like the Cathedral which would just be a few days walk away (or quicker at a super mutant's gait). And, though Fallout 1 doesn't put the finest of points on it, the Master is tech-hungry and would more than likely want to strip or repurpose a lot of valuable technologically advanced assets from the Vault. But I guess it's possible that Super Mutants could have showed up, deported a few mutants for testing, and posted some guards that drifted away once the Master was killed without destroying Vault 4's society.

Eh, the Master is also keeping his business almost completely hidden. No one knows about the Super Mutant Army until the Vault Dweller exposes it. They only start wholesale sacking places (versus attacking lone caravans) in the weeks following that before he ends up blowing up. The Master also allies with mutants who aren't Super Mutants as we see with Necropolis. Set hates the Master but agrees with him.

But NCR knowing about Vault 4 doesn't track at all. Why would Shady Sands have even been established if there was a friendly vault right there? And once we get into the NCR era, how could it have happened that the Mutants would have maintained their Vault-dweller culture? The NCR would desperately want to incorporate a Vault society with all of its advanced tech, and in spitting distance from the capital. Great economies there. Moreover - It's a huge security threat to have a functional Vault right on your doorstep, even if the inhabitants are friendly for the time being. But the show presents a very clear distinction between the Vault 4 dwellers and the NCR refugees, a distinction which wouldn't really exist if the Vault had been a part of NCR for a hundred years. By all rights it should have been turned into an industrial park/worker housing by one of the merchant clans.

I mean Shady Sands is already a friendly Vault.

We also have the Masters Super Mutants maintaining their culture as late into the Ski Resort with New Vegas.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Eh, the Master is also keeping his business almost completely hidden. No one knows about the Super Mutant Army until the Vault Dweller exposes it. They only start wholesale sacking places (versus attacking lone caravans) in the weeks following that before he ends up blowing up. The Master also allies with mutants who aren't Super Mutants as we see with Necropolis. Set hates the Master but agrees with him.

The Master was occupying and sacking more distant and hidden places already. They forcibly occupied Necropolis and were capturing Ghouls. They probably destroyed the Union of Atomic Workers, though that's vague. There were probably other vaults that they cracked open for Prime Normals, since there were intelligent Super Mutants in the Army, and Lilly came from a Vault.

In order to occupy Vault 4 they wouldn't have to do anything out in the open and betray their presence - It's a Vault, they can do they're stuff underground and walk in the night. Certainly at an absolute minimum the Children of the Cathedral would have made overtures.

I thought you'd already conceded on this "Why Didn't The Master Do Anything About the Vaults in LA" point.

I mean Shady Sands is already a friendly Vault.

No it's not, it's a shitty village descended from Vault Dwellers. That's not a Vault lol.

We also have the Masters Super Mutants maintaining their culture as late into the Ski Resort with New Vegas.

C'mon man. They live far outside the mainstream of human culture due to mutual incompatibility and hostility. Jacobstown is up in the mountains for a reason. They're isolated physically and by intention. And in what was until a decade go a very primitive and lightly populated area. Of course they have their own culture. It's not right smack dab next to Shady Sands.