General Discussion Thread of DOOM

[Byzantine]

I'm sorry that you've had to put up with that kind of treatment, @SnapSlav, but I've been in similar discussions with atheists, and I can't say that I've had the same experiences. And like your friend, my perspective is generally agnostic (and I made that clear to them, too). Some of them were even quite respectful towards people of faith, despite their positions. I suppose it comes down to what kind of people they are, too, because there's nothing in the concept of atheism that encourages you call people idiots for disagreeing with you (as far as I know, at least).

 

[TorontoReign]

Douchebags are everywhere whether they believe in the flying spaghetti monster, Xenu, Yahweh, Buddha, or monkey-fish-frogs. Some of the most annoying fucks I have ever had the displeasure of meeting were devout Christians or Atheists. I find that the middle ground is the best way to go. Strict dogmatic beliefs about any one thing can often be harmful. It is best to keep an open mind if possible. People who think they know for sure about life's greatest mysteries are...misguided.

 

[Hassknecht]

Indeed.

 

[SnapSlav]

I'm sorry that you've had to put up with that kind of treatment, @SnapSlav, but I've been in similar discussions with atheists

Alright, first of all..... how do you "mention" someone like that? XD

Second of all......

I suppose it comes down to what kind of people they are, too, because there's nothing in the concept of atheism that encourages you call people idiots for disagreeing with you (as far as I know, at least).

Actually, there kinda is. It's a statement of faith, but unlike other faiths (which get tangled with one another enough as it is, what with their "My God has a bigger dick than Your God" mutual exclusivity beliefs) it's the antithesis of faith. Rather than a belief in a particular deity, it's the belief in non-deity, and that clashes with any other statement of faith just as much as whether your God's name is Jahova or Allah. It's a weird contradiction in their processes that they fundamentally operate on a belief, yet while simultaneously badmouthing faith.

I like how Louis C.K. put it in his SNL opening monologue:
"I'm not religious. I don't know if there's a God. That's all I can say honestly is, "I don't know." Some people think that they know that there isn't. That's a weird thing to think you can know. "Yeah, there's no God." Are you sure? "Yeah, no, there's no God." How do you know? "Cause I didn't see him!" How do you... there's a vast universe! You can see for about a hundred yards, when there's not a building in the way! How could you possibly..? Did you look everywhere? Did you look in the downstairs bathroom? Where have you been looking? "I didn't see him yet." Yeah I haven't seen 12 Years a Slave yet, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist! I'm just waiting till it come out on cable." -Louis C.K.
XD

Some of the most annoying fucks I have ever had the displeasure of meeting were devout Christians or Atheists. I find that the middle ground is the best way to go. Strict dogmatic beliefs about any one thing can often be harmful.

There's not much more douchebaggy, annoying, nor extreme than getting your head cut off. But to be fair to "those guys", you ONLY experience that once in your life. 9_9 6_6

Spoiler

Yes, irony intended.

 

[Akratus]

You mention someone by putting a @ infront of their name, @SnapSlav.

It's a weird contradiction in their processes that they fundamentally operate on a belief, yet while simultaneously badmouthing faith.

I don't think it is. Faith and belief are not the same.

I'm not saying there is no all powerful force behind the universe. I'm saying the christian god is imaginary. As is the egyptian ones, the germanic ones, aztec ones, african ones, and so on and so on.

[TD="colspan: 2"]"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen F Roberts[/TD]

 

[SnapSlav]

Well one leads to the other. Faith is belief in something in lack of evidence proving otherwise. You have faith in your spouse not cheating on you, because you believe it based on their character, or your own denial, or other reasons, but not actual evidence, because you don't concretely know for sure. Belief is an intrinsic aspect of faith. They're not the same thing, but they're part of the same thing.

So next query: Can I mention myself? o.O

 

[Akratus]

Testing. .
@Akratus

 

[Hassknecht]

Second of all......

I suppose it comes down to what kind of people they are, too, because there's nothing in the concept of atheism that encourages you call people idiots for disagreeing with you (as far as I know, at least).

Actually, there kinda is. It's a statement of faith, but unlike other faiths (which get tangled with one another enough as it is, what with their "My God has a bigger dick than Your God" mutual exclusivity beliefs) it's the antithesis of faith. Rather than a belief in a particular deity, it's the belief in non-deity, and that clashes with any other statement of faith just as much as whether your God's name is Jahova or Allah. It's a weird contradiction in their processes that they fundamentally operate on a belief, yet while simultaneously badmouthing faith.

None of that encourages you to call people idiots for disagreeing with you, per se. People take it that way, of course, but it's not a part of the fundamental concept. An atheist doesn't believe in any god. That's it. Being smug about his or her supposedly superior enlightened view of the spiritual is nowhere to be found in that description. Well, you can be strict and say that every kind of absolute faith (including atheism) automatically includes the absolute rejection of every other faith and thus puts itself above others; but even that doesn't mean that this faith is an excuse for being a dick about it.
That being said, some elements of modern atheism (specifically, the parts that formed organisations and movements like "Atheism+") certainly do encourage being dicks. But that's not exactly part of atheism, it's part of being a smug arsehole who needs group-validation to feel pretty again.

 

[Gonzalez]

I'm a bit confused how you can both scorn idiots who think they're better than anyone else because they're atheists, and also quote subjectivist jargon in your sig. To me, they're peas in a pod. They're all haughty ass-hats who think they're better and smarter than everyone else, while spewing pretentiousness like some kind of rocket-propelled projectile vomit, and just as enjoyable to be on the receiving end of either.

Unless the subsequent inclusion of the 3rd quote was to somehow turn them into a series of jokes with the fascist external reality for the punchline?

I'm sorry to butt in, but I don't think it's a wise thing to say that all atheists are "haughty ass hats"

You are confused because you don't understand it. Asuming that I said that all atheists are idiots is just that, an assumption, since nowhere in the sentence I implied that, I just siad there are a lot of idiots who think they are smart because they embrace cynism and atheism, like it's a trend, not because of true conviction, but because someone else told them to, might as well believe in religion for the same reasons. I was pointing out the general state of cynism and incredulity in our society that lead to believe there is no point in anything and we all might as well cut ourselves beause of it. So you totally missed the point by a long shot. You are generalizing and reducing and oversimplifying what I said.

Also, saying that the quotes in my sigs are pretentious "jargon" is to depreciate their meaning and reduce them to something cleaver that you might find in a fortune coockie. Two of those quotes are not even from "famed" philosophers, but from people still alive today that I've herd first hand from by the way, and all of them well allow me to believe in God if I wanted to, so if I were saying bad things about atheists, wich I'm not, it wouldn't be contradictory at all. Those quotes free me to think whatever I want and change my mind about it whenever I want it. Doubting and iquiring is not the same as denying.

 

[Walpknut]

Well people will always try and form a club of elites around any fucking thing, even a hippie commune will have a group that looks down upon the other hippies because they consider themselves Super Hippies. That's why I also stopped being a metal head, just a bunch of insecure morons trying to feel dangerous and they barely even pay attention to the music other than seeing it as a tool to look dangerous and cool (and sometimes they even willfully ignore that the "dress in full leather" was introduced by a gay man, and they are homophobic as fuck).


On the other hand I think the act of needing to believe in a higher power is a pretty childish thing, I won't say "there is no such thing!" because I have literaly 0 proof for it, but I highly doubt such a power even if it existed would influence our lives in anyway. The earth is a speckle of dust in the grand scheme of the universe, to believe that life here would be any special to warrant an omnicsient omnipotent being to give a shit about or every move sounds extremely self absorbed. This doesn't mean life "has no meaning", of course it does, is all we actually have, so by extension is literally the only thing that matters. If you believe life has no meaning without a magical man in the sky then I guess religion can work as depression medicine for some people, so it's better to let them to it.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Funny enough Jehova and Allah are actually the same entitiy. Just saying >_>

And this topic took such a nice course. And someone just had to drag religion in to this. *le sigh*

 

[Gonzalez]

Being the only thing we have it doesn't gives it meaning, and is in any case not enough for me. Neither it would be honest to fool myself by believing in dieties, and even if I did I would be wondering "who created/what was before the diety". What I cannot find an answet to and havent got an answer from anyone is the famous question "why is there something rather than nothing", and saying "well, it doesn't matter, what mtters is that there is something and it's all we got", ignoring the question and doing other things so I don't have to think about it is not good enough for me.

You also mentioned "the grand scheme of the universe", does that means you believe there is a "scheme" behind the universe, that someone or something created?

 

[Walpknut]

I'll say if being the only thing you have doesn't give meaning to it, then nothing will have meaning. "Why is there something, instead of nothing?" because if there was nothing you wouldn't be asking that question, most of what we see is not a deliberate design but rather a series of events that eventually form something else, rocks floating in the vacuum of space, moving through a frictionless vacuum, hitting each other, spinning out of control, collapsing on themselves, life is an accident or rather a coincidence of events, to the outside it has no meaning, because nothing has any "objective" meaning. Life has meaning for the one experiencing it. If you want a more cosmic answer then think about how one life can influence another, you are part (ever so small) of the big chain of actions and reactions known as humanity, everything you do will have an effect, be it through just existing and interacting with another person, doing something thousands of people experience and influences their conceptions and ideas, down to dying and your body becoming part of the soil.
And when I say the grand scheme of the universe I mean as the whole mass of reactions and movements out there.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Being the only thing we have it doesn't gives it meaning, and is in any case not enough for me. Neither it would be honest to fool myself by believing in dieties, and even if I did I would be wondering "who created/what was before the diety". What I cannot find an answet to and havent got an answer from anyone is the famous question "why is there something rather than nothing", and saying "well, it doesn't matter, what mtters is that there is something and it's all we got", ignoring the question and doing other things so I don't have to think about it is not good enough for me.

You also mentioned "the grand scheme of the universe", does that means you believe there is a "scheme" behind the universe, that someone or something created?

If you follow that concept though than you could play this game with literaly everything.

I am not a religious or spiritual person but I do think that religion if you want so can give you clear answers, probably why so many people follow it. If they are right or not is a whole different debate, hence why I find the whole idea of fighting or killing someone based on religion so silly and preposterous.

In religion there is not really the question what was before god? - if we stay with the abrahamitic religions at least. I mean the obvious answer will always be, God of course. He was always there. No more questions needed. For some that is already enough and I can understand why they feel comfortable with that concept, it is the easy way out after all, there is no idea of if A was the first what came before A?

But as far as science goes, there will (most probably) always be the question what happend before this or that. Hence why science is never the right tool to look for answers or finding some truth, you might easily end up with more questions than answers. To many people treat science like some religion today. But modern science was never mant to work like that way or even replace religion.

 

[Walpknut]

Religion gives easy answers. Easy answers are not the same as truth.

Also Science is an exercise in discovery and pondering, anyone who treats it as religion (which is a lot of people unfortunately) then are just completely missing the point of it. You are always meant to leave space for doubt and nothing is ever proven 100%.

I find religion silly, but if someone uses it to not be an asshole or to be a good person then it's fine. But as we know, if a human considers something an ideology there is always gonna be an extremist group of it.

 

[Gonzalez]

"Why is there something, instead of nothing?" because if there was nothing you wouldn't be asking that question.

You are dodging the question altogether, of course that if there was nothing I wouldn't be asking myself that, but there is something, even if there is no reason for it to be: Why?. "Life has meaning for the one experiencing it" is another way of avoiding the issue altogether, "live your life and don't worry about why you exist or that you are going to die and stop existing, enjoy the experience for what it is" it's not an answer, its a way of being oblivious to the issue. Sure, I'm going to die, but not today, I'll die many years from now, so why worry, I'll worry about it tomorrow. That doesn't change the fact that you are going to die and can die any minute of any moment for any reason, it just makes you forget about it so you don't have to face it. That doesn't mean that I recomend for everybody to live their lives in constant fear of death, but I'm not going to avoid the issue just because of how terrifying it can be, I still want my answers.

I don't expect a random forumite to give answers to such fundamental questions when the gratests scientific and philosophical minds can't, but the questions are still there.

EDIT:

According to science a black hole could appear from out of nowhere and make our planet disappear, then what if that happened, then everything humans have accomplished, every life you and your ancestors have touched, everything, will disappear into oblivion, as if it never existed, and it will mean nothing, there will be nobody around to remember it. If there was earth of a lifeless planet in the black hole's path the rest of the universe would still be unaffected. So don't take too much confort on how you affect ohther people's lives either.

Now, let me be just a bit selfish here. If I die, and the next day the black hole comes and destroys everything humans have done or been, will I care? No. So why even worry about the black hole, when I die the entire universe stops existing, at least for the only person that matters, the one that stopped experiencing it. And then everything the deceased has done, anything that anyone has done before him, and everyone his life has affected will mean nothing. When I stop existing the entire universe might as well stop existing.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Religion gives easy answers. Easy answers are not the same as truth.

We are getting somewhat philosophical though - particularly as I personaly don't believe in the concept of "truth" and I say this without think about semantics, I mean it seriously, there is no truth in my opinion only ideas. Albeit I would never go so far to call someone who's believing in religion as silly. Actually I even find that respectable, in some sense. If you know what I mean. The serenity of a monk or priest can be very impressive if they take their faith seriously. Of course not in the sense of false ideas or fanatism. Religious people can sometimes achieve a lot of positive things in their life, Mother Theresa, Gandhi or the Dalai Lama just to name a few, even though I definitely don't see them as perfect they are humans after all. But, you still can't say that about everyone.

From what I see on forums - albeit this is of course just my experience, there is quite a lot of fanatism from those that feel like they have to fight religion or someone faith, it has become modern to bash on religion in general. And I don't really like that idea either. It doesn't matter to me if some ones is believing in the invisible man in the sky, some blue creature with 8 arms or a big snake that dreamed about earth or what ever, I don't judge them even if I don't believe in it. As long as people are open to discuss their faith, but they should also not meet unwarranted hostility just because of their faith in my opinion.

 

[TorontoReign]

My plan to stir debate has worked. Hahaha.

 

[SnapSlav]

Trying out this mention business for the first time... I'd just like to address some of @Gonzalez misunderstandings.

[Assuming] that I said that all atheists are idiots is just that, an assumption, since nowhere in the sentence [had I] implied that

Nowhere did I state that you had. I fully recognized that you were highlighting a select group who used their own ideologies as a platform for their own personal assholery, not that you claimed said ideology and assholery were intrinsically linked. Suffice it to say, everything of yours which followed in the vein of assuming (ironic) I made that assessment is just redundant.

I just [said] there are a lot of idiots who think they are smart because they embrace [cynicism] and atheism, like it's a trend, not because of true conviction, but because someone else told them to, might as well believe in religion for the same reasons. I was pointing out the general state of [cynicism] and incredulity in our society that lead to believe there is no point in anything and we all might as well cut ourselves [because] of it. So you totally missed the point by a long shot. You are generalizing and reducing and oversimplifying what I said.

Asking why is not missing the point. It's begging the question. It's ENDEAVORING to grasp the point. I stated a perception with the explanation that it left me ponderous followed by asking why that is, and concluded with the only assuming I made that it was a joke. The reason for that assumption being I have been taking note of the evolution of your sig over the months and your gradual inclusion of more quotes one at a time has not gone unobserved, so because of the whimsical and satirical nature of the 3rd quote, in stark contrast with the dry nature of the preceding two, I wondered if that was supposed to be a one-two-three punch joke. Simple as that.

Also, saying that the quotes in my sigs are pretentious "jargon" is to depreciate their meaning and reduce them to something cleaver that you might find in a fortune [cookie].

To begin with, I think you're unfamiliar with me, so let's get one thing out of the door: I'm always deliberate. So me saying those things as if it were to depreciate their meaning and so on and so on is because that's exactly what I intended. I'm an objectivist, so it stands to reason I have a violent allergic reaction to any and all subjectivist philosophy. I find it grievously offensive to postulate that truth is anything besides absolute. I despise the notion that facts may be reduced to interpretations. Does this mean my opinion controls theirs, and they cannot be right because I say so? No, of course not.

The second thing to know about me is that I am also not a hypocrite. If I scorn the manner that some people push themselves onto others, you better damn well expect that if I let myself do the same thing, if called out on it, I'll be ashamed. But all other times, I would endeavor to be consistent with my philosophies. Bottom line, I genuinely loath subjectivism philosophy, and (to repeat) the ONLY atheists I've ever conversed with were stubbornly absolutist and pushed their creeds onto others, while belittling them.

So, now armed with this knowledge of how I operate, this is what happened: I saw a reverence for a series of phrases which I offhandedly described in such a way to no more than allude to my own feelings towards them (but not actually lead the point of my statements at all, as said description was simply tangential, nothing more) which seemed to imply liking one's own interpretations of the world around them, while simultaneously observing what appeared to me a comment about those who, in my experience, have been absolutely against personal thought, and that left me puzzled. Hence my query.

Third thing you'll learn about me, I'm always serious and honest. I don't take the piss. I asked a question because I was genuinely curious, not because I wanted to shit on you. Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to offend you.

- - - - - - - - - -

EDIT: @TorontRayne

My plan to stir debate has worked. Hahaha.

You sassy biatch!

So, did these mentions work? =D

 

[TorontoReign]

Hahahaha. Oh boy.

http://blog.cosmosmagazine.com/blog/2015/2/18/saudi-cleric-declares-the-earth-has-stopped