How do communists want to enforce their ideology?

*shrugs* yeah, with millions of people ending up in gulags, that sure pushed Russia forward a lot. Com on dude. That's almost like claiming that Hitler made Germany better, because it is doing well today or something. The communists under Stalin and before him Lenin, made almost no progress for Russia and the Sovietunion. A lot of the issues we see today, in the eastern parts of Europe, simply exist because of their 70-80 years of politics, colectivism, opression and ideology. It has a reason why they tried very hard to get rid of Stalin and his politics declaring him almost a criminal. And even THAT was not enough to convince everyone in the east block.
Only a cynical would claim, that they brought some progress. With their politics and regime, they made sure that progress was slowed down.
Actually it did... they were worked to death as free labor. Who made the factories in the Urals? Who helped farmers as laborers? Political, criminal and war prisoners. It's sad but it's true. Everything Stalin did (apart from the purges) were brutal and cruel but they did help Russia become an industrial power and improved their economy. So they did make progress, just not political progress. Everyone forgets that before Stalin and Lenin Russia was torn apart by civil war, the country being backwards and unable to stay up with the westerns powers. I have to say it, only a fool would claim that they didn't bring progress.
 
Actually it did... they were worked to death as free labor. Who made the factories in the Urals? Who helped farmers as laborers? Political, criminal and war prisoners. It's sad but it's true. Everything Stalin did (apart from the purges) were brutal and cruel but they did help Russia become an industrial power and improved their economy. So they did make progress, just not political progress. Everyone forgets that before Stalin and Lenin Russia was torn apart by civil war, the country being backwards and unable to stay up with the westerns powers. I have to say it, only a fool would claim that they didn't bring progress.

Well sure, but that's not exactly an admirable achievment. It's not very hard to reach your goals if you have an unlimited ammount (by all intends and purposes) of disposable people at your hands that you can work to death steal food from and sell it to get your industry going. And even then, the soviet union was still always trailing behind the western world. Constant shortages of basic things like paint, or toilet paper etc.

China after Mao was in a similar situation:

"Urban Chinese citizens experienced virtually no increase in living standards from 1957 onwards, and rural Chinese had no better living standards in the 1970s than the 1930s"


As much as i am not a fan of current Chinas regime, they did manage to pull the country out of a complete disaster with econmic reforms that did not include millions of casualties.

main-qimg-c80f35cb3728746e9f87adef24de4b63



хостинг фото
 
Well sure, but that's not exactly an admirable achievment. It's not very hard to reach your goals if you have an unlimited ammount (by all intends and purposes) of disposable people at your hands that you can work to death steal food from and sell it to get your industry going. And even then, the soviet union was still always trailing behind the western world. Constant shortages of basic things like paint, or toilet paper etc.
It's not admirable or good, but keep in mind that Russia became an industrial power in a decade, where others took longer.
 
Collapse of anything will always lead to worse conditions initially. All the soviet block countries and puppet entities that escaped Russia's influence after the collapse are now enjoying a pretty high standard of living and they also have a higher HDI rating than Russia (excluding Bulgaria and Romania which are slightly lower than Russia's).

2014_UN_Human_Development_Report_Quartiles.svg

I think you can add Ukraine to the list of countries that didn't do so well after the collpse of SU. Also, things haven't been that rosy in the other former communist nations either, with things like welfare and pensions being cut. And things like organised crime became stronger. Even in former East-Germany some are still complaining about how the unification didn't really bring that much good to the eastern part and a lot of what was good about the socialist system was eradicated, like for example activity clubs for kids etc.
 
I think you can add Ukraine to the list of countries that didn't do so well after the collpse of SU. Also, things haven't been that rosy in the other former communist nations either, with things like welfare and pensions being cut. And things like organised crime became stronger. Even in former East-Germany some are still complaining about how the unification didn't really bring that much good to the eastern part and a lot of what was good about the socialist system was eradicated, like for example activity clubs for kids etc.
My grandparents have had downturns in their living conditions, with my paralyzed grandma being unable to take advantage of free healthcare and welfare. The fall of the SU also ensured the rise of the Russian mafia and the rise of the super rich. Best part being is that living conditions only went up because of Putin, but now threaten to go down because of Putin... well because of embargoes and rising tariffs.
 
I think you can add Ukraine to the list of countries that didn't do so well after the collpse of SU.

I said "Soviet block countries and puppet entities that escaped Russia's influence". Clearly Ukraine up until 2014 was not one of those countries.

Also, things haven't been that rosy in the other former communist nations either, with things like welfare and pensions being cut. And things like organised crime became stronger. Even in former East-Germany some are still complaining about how the unification didn't really bring that much good to the eastern part and a lot of what was good about the socialist system was eradicated, like for example activity clubs for kids etc.

Notwithstanding the consequences of 2008 economic crisis, the social spending (pensions being one social spending branches) seems to be rising or on the same level:

Expenditure on social protection, 2002–12 (% of GDP)
Expenditure_on_social_protection%2C_2002%E2%80%9312_%28%25_of_GDP%29_YB15.png


I don't have data on organized crime in Eastern Europe, but i'm pretty sure that the highest point was from early to mid 90'. That was the case in my country, and as of now it's pretty much eradicated. If you have statistics that say otherwise it would be interesting to see them, i may be completely off track, who knows.

As for complains, well, people are always complaining, they remember the good, but always forget the bad. There is no story from the soviet years that does not include something like standing in line for hours, going to another country to buy furniture, stealing from factories, salivating at the prospect of acquiring sneakers or jeans etc. The good part about planned economy was that mostly everyone had a job, but since planned economy does not work and always eventually crashes to pieces, this is not a sustainable model as much as some people would like it to be.

I personally find the prospect of being able to go anywhere, do anything, buy anything and speak without fear of prosecution a much better alternative than the opposite. Even though i don't make much money, i'm leading a pretty comfortable life.
 
Last edited:
Also, since we were talking about gdp and soviet union, if found an interesting graph. I'm not posting it to serve my arguments or anything like that, i just thought that it would be interesting to see how the soviet union compared to usa and europe in gdp per capita.

"gross domestic product (at purchasing power parity) per capita, i.e. the purchasing power parity (PPP) value of all final goods and services produced within a country in a given year, divided by the average (or mid-year) population for the same year."

PerCapGDP_USSR_US.jpg


Every line on the chart is a number, so the first one from the bottom is 2000, the second is 3000 up until 10000.
 
I said "Soviet block countries and puppet entities that escaped Russia's influence". Clearly Ukraine up until 2014 was not one of those countries.

Yes it could be that it was Russia's influence that has kept Ukraine mostly poor. There have been some who here in Finland have, maybe in a racist way, said that there is something fundamentally wrong with eastern European countries. That they have had enough time to develop and become more like the richer west but haven't been able to do so, and that it wasn't the communism and it's residual after effects that kept them poor but fundamental qualities about these countries.

I wouldn't put much weight on such statements, I don't think they look deeply into the issues plaguing the economies of the eastern European countries.

Notwithstanding the consequences of 2008 economic crisis, the social spending (pensions being one social spending branches) seems to be rising:

I don't have data on organized crime in Eastern Europe, but i'm pretty sure that the highest point was from early to mid 90'. That was the case in my country, and as of now it's pretty much eradicated. If you have statistics that say otherwise it would be interesting to see them, i may be completely off track, who knows.

As for complains, well, people are always complaining, they remember the good, but always forget the bad. There is no story from the soviet years that does not include something like standing in line for hours, going to another country to buy furniture, stealing from factories, salivating at the prospect of acquiring sneakers or jeans etc. The good part about planned economy was that mostly everyone had a job, but since planned economy does not work and always eventually crashes to pieces, this is not a sustainable model as much as some people would like it to be.

I personally find the prospect of being able to go anywhere, do anything, buy anything and speak without fear of prosecution a much better alternative than the opposite. Even though i don't make much money, i'm leading a pretty comfortable life.

I don't have any good stats to show off immediately. There was some talk in the media over here in Finland warning travellers to Latvia not to pay with those debit cards when buying stuff from the store, there has been some overcharging. Also not to stray from the tourist areas much and to avoid certain areas after dark. Then again there are warnings about most places and only good common sense to be careful.
 
Actually it did... they were worked to death as free labor. Who made the factories in the Urals? Who helped farmers as laborers? Political, criminal and war prisoners. It's sad but it's true. Everything Stalin did (apart from the purges) were brutal and cruel but they did help Russia become an industrial power and improved their economy. So they did make progress, just not political progress. Everyone forgets that before Stalin and Lenin Russia was torn apart by civil war, the country being backwards and unable to stay up with the westerns powers. I have to say it, only a fool would claim that they didn't bring progress.
And how much intelligentsia was lost by those actions? How many ideas, concepts and scientific research has been corrupted, surpresed and outright outlawed by the Communist, particularly Stalins party. How many scientists, engineers and other academics ended up in those gulags and labor camps, ending up digging and shoveling, sometimes on totally useless projects, till they died? How many people had to starve or otherwise dealing with economical issues, because somewhere a dam or secret military town for nuclear research had to be build in the shortest time possible? How many accidents, including Tschernobyle, could be traced back to sheer slack when it came to safety? Or because standards had to be ignored, due to unrealistic shedules? All because of the preasure from proving that the socialist ideals would outgrow western capitalism in the shortest time possible. If the US did it in 10 years, the mighty Soviets/Chinese had to do it in 3! And of course, if necessary, trough labour without the necesary machines, tools and engineers that made it happen. Not to mention that a lot of what the Soviets claimed, has been also pure proganda - Alexei Stakhanov: The USSR's superstar miner, and he was by far not the only one.
I won't denny that the Sovietunion saw SOME progress when compared to Zarist Russia. But Zarrist Russia was pretty much the bottom! There was literaly no other way, but up! And the Soviets had some extremly crafty scientists and engineers, but they have been most of the time far behind the west. Military matters locked a bit different, for obvious reasons though, because this is where a lot of their resources ended up.

Again. It would be ludicrous to think that Stalin and the following communists improved the Sovietunion. I am not saying that America, Britain or Germany are the standard here, they made enough mistakes on their own, particularly as a pure profit oriented society has a lot of issues on their own. But regimes, are usually not the best environment when it comes to economics and science. Particularly agricultural research was a totall mess in the Sovietunion, driven by egos, false ideology and a strange adoption of marxist ideals. If you ignore science, you get such situations like missmanagaments leading to mass famines and shortages. Again, a lot, if not all of the issues Russisa had to deal with after the 1990s, can be directly traced back to the 70 years of Communism and their politics.

It's not admirable or good, but keep in mind that Russia became an industrial power in a decade, where others took longer.
Nonsense. Again. They. Had. No. Other. Way. But. Up! The economical power houses of the early and late 20s have been the US, Britain and Germany. Those saw the largest sums of investment and engineering. This changed a lot for the Germans during the Nazi regime, when a lot of scientists left the nation, nuclear reseach has shifted completely to Britain and the US, while engineering was more and more dominated by the Nazi ideology.
Russia as the Sovietunion under Stalin suffered from tremendious issues. Political clansings, bad educations, an old and outdated agrarian economy, regress in military tactics. This almost costed them the victory when fighting the Germans. Stalin was at least intelligent enough to realize that, when he left military planing and strategy to his most skilled officers, while only giving his yes or no to the big decisions. And even here, his ego still costed thousands if not 100 000 of Russian lives! Up till the very end in 1945! Even in the late 30s, they still had not solved most of their issues. And Stalins timed plans for all kinds of branches, made it even worse. Because you can not achieve anything, if you simply lack the necessary workforce. You can not increase production without the required tools and machines and just using uneducated labor alone. And if they don't achieve their goals? Gulag for you! Compare the situation of the Sovietunion in the late 30s with those of Japan, which was in a similar if not even worse situation, but managed in a shorter time to achieve industrialisation. But even they, with all the power and preasure, could not compete with the US. And Japan never achieved a complete modernisation. Which costed them the victory in WW2. Among many other reasons of course.

Just to make this clear though!
I am not the kind of guy that sees everything Soviet/Communist as the absolute evil and I don't see everything from the west, including Germany, as the best standard in the world. All systems are very complex structures, and to think in black and white is totally stupid. For example, the fact that many Socialist ideas, particularly economic theories are largely ignored in western academics, even after the Soviet Union collapsed, is in my opinion, rather problematic. This is more motivated by ideology, than scientific research. Why not taking a look at what the scientists on the other side have done, researched and theorized for the last 60 years? They had a lot of intelligent people after all. Wasted potential in my opinion. However, when you simply look at the last 70 years, it is obvious, which concept managed to win the cold war. The real tragedy is, that we in the west, havn't learnd from our mistakes.
 
Last edited:
For all the things that were bad in Tsarist Russia, the USSR even went as far as to claim some of its successes as their own. Most notably, the rise in literacy - often used as an argument for the success of socialism in Russia, was in fact something already achieved in Tsarist times. Three quarters of recruits which reached military age during WWI were literate.
 
Woah Crni Vuk I tip my hat to you.

Your argument would be better if it was unique. Sadly lots of the problems you mentioned happened in Great Britain during the Industrial revolution, it happened in France, it happened in pretty much every country that went through the industrial revolution. Not all the problems happen everywhere, but the major ones of starvation, poverty, low literacy and lack of goods are not unique to the USSR.
 
Woah Crni Vuk I tip my hat to you.

Your argument would be better if it was unique. Sadly lots of the problems you mentioned happened in Great Britain during the Industrial revolution, it happened in France, it happened in pretty much every country that went through the industrial revolution.

Could you provide some examples from the industrial revolution in Great Britain and France that were similar to Stalins regime politics? I'm curious about the subject.
 
Could you provide some examples from the industrial revolution in Great Britain and France that were similar to Stalin's regime politics? I'm curious about the subject.
You know, when I refer to PROBLEMS that doesn't immediately mean that I was actually discussing the policies of a dictator.

But if you asked the question (CONNECTED to what I said) then there's...
1. Farmers to factory workers and all the problems that offered (cramped living conditions, low wages, pollution and starvation).
2. Policies that starved farmers to force them out of land into the factories, OR to ensure that independent farmers will have to be taken over by big businessmen/state rulers.
3. Little attempts by the government to better living conditions, with an aim at producing more instead.
 
You know, when I refer to PROBLEMS that doesn't immediately mean that I was actually discussing the policies of a dictator.

Well, then i misunderstood you. I thought you were trying to compare the policies and casualties of the industrial revolution to the ones that came with Stalin's 5 year plan.

But if you asked the question (CONNECTED to what I said) then there's...
1. Farmers to factory workers and all the problems that offered (cramped living conditions, low wages, pollution and starvation).
2. Policies that starved farmers to force them out of land into the factories, OR to ensure that independent farmers will have to be taken over by big businessmen/state rulers.
3. Little attempts by the government to better living conditions, with an aim at producing more instead.

Baring in mind that i misunderstood you, i was curious about particular cases and statistics.
 
Woah Crni Vuk I tip my hat to you.

Your argument would be better if it was unique.
Sadly lots of the problems you mentioned happened in Great Britain during the Industrial revolution, it happened in France, it happened in pretty much every country that went through the industrial revolution. Not all the problems happen everywhere, but the major ones of starvation, poverty, low literacy and lack of goods are not unique to the USSR.
My intention wasn't to be unique, but we are talking about a timeperiod between 1914 and 1990. What counts, is if the argument has some merrit, not if it is unique. A lot of people have thought about this before. So most probably no one of us here will have some super unique thoughts anyway. And I always had this feeling, that the general concensus is, if the Sovietunion was a democracy, comparable to Britain or France, it would have seen a lot more prosperity as with the communists. And I will say this again, in my opinion only a cynical would say that Communism, at least the one we saw with Lenin, Stalin and the people which followed them, was an improvement for Russia and the Sovietunion. In the long run.


I never made the claim other nations didn't had to deal with issues on their own. I am just saying, if Zarist Russia would have followed Britain or Swedens example, with changing their nation to a Republic with a Parliament, they would have seen a lot more progress in the comming 70 years compared to what the Communists achieved. It might have even prevented WW2! A possible Russian Republic might have even surpased the US in the late 1930s and early 1940s, if they achieved the same living standard as the US had in the late 1930s. Imagine a Russia in 1940, with the same technological resources like the US and with the same level of mass production! The Germans would lost the war in mere months. And not after 4 years.
 
Last edited:

Disclaimer, I haven't watched the entire video since I'm really skeptic with anything with a RT logo, so I'm talking with my ass.

"Name me a system that have withstood the longest period of time, that have given people prosperity, given people peace. Give me a name of an other system that is better."

The Chinese Imperial system, it existed for a few thousands of years witnessing very little change, thing that a very few political system can boast about. It was prosperous and peaceful for most of the time, although people tend to exaggerate about legendary golden age, Chinese scholars in particular, but if you look at the demographic studies, they must have doing pretty well, with the exception of time of chaos, but as the Mao Lun and Mao Zonggang say in the introduction of the Romance of the Three Kingdom "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been", until the white devil, and the Japanese demon went and fuck everything up beyond repair. I don't know if it's better, one sure is certain, it existed for longer than modern post-WW2 democracy, and gave people prosperity, I might had that our prosperity is more due to technology than anything else.

As for the woman comparing democracy and our technology, how we lose our agency, she wasn't half wrong. He speaks about how debates, journalism, free speech and all the jazz makes our politics great, but really what you think don't matter, because nobody will hear you, what you want don't matter, because you can't vote with a list of what you want and don't want in the ballot box, when was the last time a representative did what you wanted, what was the last time you spoke with him for an entire day in private to make sure that he is the right person to represent you? There is no agency, I'd even say that we don't live in a democracy. The only people who ever knew what was a democracy is in Europe, are the Old Swiss Confederacy, when they were kick the ass of both the Holy Roman Empire, and the French Kingdom at the same time.

And about how in war a democracy, it's all about the will of the people, first of, the will of the people can easily be misguided, and this as far as Athene in Antiquity, two the will of the people with enough suggestion don't need democracy to want war.
 
Yes, there have been many societies that saw some prosperity, which is not contradicting anything here. Remember that Michio Kaku said more than just prosperity. It was also about freedom, free spech, free science/research in combination with prosperity. And as a matter of fact, so far only democratic states, have given you all of that so far, while withstanding the test of time. You can guess how much freedom you had if you started to say something against the emperor. Not to mention how often people had to deal with draconic restrictions, that make no sense in a democracy for example. How many scholars have ended up in prisons or worse, simply beacuse of their opinions. That doesn't mean that a democractic society is perfect! It can have also a lot of qustionable rules - see homosexuality in the past. But, the principles that a democracy is build upon, are so far the best ones. The idea of constitutions, seperation of power, votes with representatives, limitations of terms for the head of state and so on.
I am not the kind of guy, who generaly is agreeing with everything we have today. But we definetly made a lot of progress when it comes to the principles of what makes a modern democratic state, if you compare it to all of the different systems we saw over the last no clue 10 000 years, from empires, to kings, different regimes etc. Even if some of those offered posperity, or safety, or a certain freedom, none of those could provide you with all of it. One principle of a democracy is the exchange of ideas, with political debates where you have discussions, with critical voices and oppositions. And this is usually not something that you see very often in other systems, like nations that have rulers like kings or emperors.
 
I never made the claim other nations didn't had to deal with issues on their own. I am just saying, if Zarist Russia would have followed Britain or Swedens example, with changing their nation to a Republic with a Parliament, they would have seen a lot more progress in the comming 70 years compared to what the Communists achieved. It might have even prevented WW2! A possible Russian Republic might have even surpased the US in the late 1930s and early 1940s, if they achieved the same living standard as the US had in the late 1930s. Imagine a Russia in 1940, with the same technological resources like the US and with the same level of mass production! The Germans would lost the war in mere months. And not after 4 years.
...

You're really optimistic aren't you? Also the civil war began because the Republic was weak and the Duma corrupt, and don't get me started on the White Guard.
 
Back
Top