Stanislao Moulinsky
Vault Fossil
I don't know, from the descriptions given of the ening it looks like something made at the last minute. Unless you mean "what's done is done".
Mass Effect 3 discussion
- Thread starter brfritos
- Start date
Vault Fossil
I don't know, from the descriptions given of the ening it looks like something made at the last minute. Unless you mean "what's done is done".
Yes. Now only game developers have to actually realize that.brfritos said:
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
aenemic said:
Actually, yes, you do ask the makers of the movie to change it. As a matter of fact, that's how Betas work, that's how playtesting works. The question is whether or not they will listen.
I didn't play the Beta for ME3, but presumably a few changes are a result of the high profile leak of ME3's script where the writers may have changed some of the story because part of it had been leaked.
In Hollywood, this pre-release feedback is part of the "Preview" process. Several films have had their ending changed prior to a full release in order to garner a different reception. This is a reason why some movies have alternate endings. "I am Legend" had a more esoteric ending originally, but was considered too cerebral by that films preview audience (I saw the original ending, and it made great sense), and a heroic sacrifice ending was switched in instead (and I thought that it was quite a bit of a letdown).
Even after the original films have been released to the public, it doesn't stop some filmmakers from fine-tuning their work. Sometimes it works, as in the case of Blade Runner and the myriad of changes made between the original print and the Very Final cut. Sometimes it doesn't work (see: George lucas Special Editions).
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
Sorry, but that's a bad idea as far as I am concerned. As I outline before, it leaves very little to the imagination; the galaxy will enter a dark age, many worlds will perish, some of the fleets/races are doomed no matter what you did (Quarians, Turians, Krogans eventually) and the Normandy's crew is stranded on a world, and they don't even seem to give a shit for some reason. And yes, considering this is the end of a beloved trilogy based on the fact that your choices matter and that Bioware did very well in providing closure in Origins, not to mention all the talk about a fulfilling ending, I don't see how knowing how the galaxy deals with the aftermath of the ending is such an unreasonable expectation.
Charles Dickens changed the ending of Great Expectations. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle ressurected Sherlock Holmes. Blade Runner (among other films) changed endings about 3 times if I recall correctly. Closer to the video game discussion, Bethesda changed Fallout 3's ending with Broken Steel. This kind of thing has happened before, it's nothing new, and I think it's perfectly justified given how the present endings crap all over the series, it's themes and it's goal. Furthermore, Bioware is not an artist per se, they are a company releasing a product. If this whole thing ends up being damaging to them, PR and $ wise, I think there's a chance they do something about it. When that kind of news makes the front page of Forbes and appears on CNN, you know this is kinda bigger than the average Bioware-related crisis.
I get what you are saying, to a point, but this is a fallacy. Nobody's holding Casey Hudson and Mac Walters (lead designer and writers, respectively, and those responsible for the ending) at gunpoint or swinging and axe at them. There's an organised, generally very civil movement to request a better ending, for reasons I exposed in this thread previously, along with a charity (the FTC complaint IS going overboard, however, I quite agree).
Also, I would like to know what you think of my retort to your ''think you can do better?'' question.
So there is a bug on the Xbox version that hangs at the press start screen. The only way to fix it is to sign in with a new gamertag but then you are locked out of your saves and multiplayer. Thanks for that Bioware, I was really enjoying the multiplayer.
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
I knew Penny Arcade was close-knit with BiowEAre (amongst other devs) but now they're just sucking their dicks http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-masses-are-effected .
And really, many gaming sites side with the devs calling the fans entitled or somesuch without bringing forth any kind of argument. I know, I know, gaming journalism, but you'd think they would at least pretend not to be the big publisher's little bitches.
And really, many gaming sites side with the devs calling the fans entitled or somesuch without bringing forth any kind of argument. I know, I know, gaming journalism, but you'd think they would at least pretend not to be the big publisher's little bitches.
To be honest the massive amount of support the media is showing Mass Effect 3 in spite of its backlash is kind of amazing. Is it because they praised it early and feel they need to stick to their guns? There seems to be some kind of mass denial going on, even by videogame journalism standards it's a little weird. They do know this is the new EA BioWare, right, who don't make games that are that good and don't respect customers at all?
Pretty much.
I was never invested much in the whole story, because hey, it's pretty crappy.
I can see why people would be mad though if they were.
Also, it's funny how 'entitlement' and 'protection of art' are pretty much the only defense they have.
It reminds me of something, but I don't know what.
I was never invested much in the whole story, because hey, it's pretty crappy.
I can see why people would be mad though if they were.
Also, it's funny how 'entitlement' and 'protection of art' are pretty much the only defense they have.
It reminds me of something, but I don't know what.
I wish I could throw this kind of protection around in my business ... you know graphic design. If the consumer is not happy then I am fucked. Regardless how much I personally think the product I deliver is awesome.
aenemic
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Ilosar said:
doesn't matter if it's a bad idea or not, it's what it is. so I don't get all the critisism towards your actions not having consequences.
sure, they could add a little more information about what happened after the ending, but to what point except stating the obvious or just blurting out random cheesy stories you don't care about either way? the major things, like the future or the Krogans, the Geth etc are already implied depending on your actions and don't need further explanation in my opinion.
want the game to tell you that Shepard DID get that beer with Vegas back on earth when it all was over? is that really worth all this headache?
Ilosar said:
I never said it doesn't happen, I know it does. but a lot of the time it's not a good thing. just look at Star Wars and the hole George Lucas keeps digging for that franchise.
but fanservice is fanservice and obviously they are going to do something about this if it doesn't die down soon. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be expected and I think it's a shame on a perfectly good ending.
Ilosar said:
shooting down arguments, completely ignoring them and generally not respecting other people's opinions isn't really civil, even if it's wrapped in nice words. I completely respect that people don't like this ending. but from the little I've looked at the official boards and on other sites, people who are happy with the current ending(s) aren't exactly well respected.
doesn't matter though, BioWare will do what they have to do. I probably won't re-play the game if they change the ending (or I will play without that DLC if the changes come in that format).
Ilosar said:
that's not what I was aiming for, I never said "think you can do better?" I asked what other options you would have wanted to see. so don't get all defensive. I liked some of your ideas, they kind of made sense.
the thing is, for me Mass Effect hasn't been about hope and doing the impossible against all odds. those elements have been there, yes - but more importantly, since the first game there's been a heavy cloud of hopelessness over everything you do, and the story and much of the gameplay has been about confronting and trying to understand the unknown. these things have been extremely important to create a certain atmosphere I thoroughly enjoyed in these games. and I LOVED that they kept this all throughout the ending as well. the ending is bitter-sweet, just like everything else you have done in the games has been. taking that away, finishing it off on a happy note, revealing all the mysteries and giving you a gold star for effort would be completely against what I loved about these games.
it's all about taste, man. that's why I can't be bothered arguing this much more. I just wanted to say that I think it's a shame, and a tad bit sad, that people get so upset about this. and it's a shame that BioWare probably will give in to all the crying, like a mom in the toy store who wants to avoid the ruckus her child is creating.
but in the end, I think it's mostly a result of people being so spoiled with information and having everthing put in front of them these days. if 2001: A Space Odyssey came out today, there would probably be a similar outcry on the internet, people DEMANDING Kubrick to explain the ending.
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
I completely disagree, aenemic.
I find it presumptuous to make a comparison to 2001: A Space Odyssey in that audiences would demand to know what happened and call for either Arthur C. Clarke or Kubrick to change the ending. Not only does the story offer explanations and pieces of development within the scope of the first film, but it also factors in the events of the next.
This certainly was also not the case in a more recent film called "Memento" which challenged viewers to question what was going on the whole way through. And each decision made along the way colors the main character as well as the overall story a little differently up through the reveal at the end of the film.
The difference again, is that the decisions made along the way in Mass Effect do not factor into the ending. In a span of the last ten minutes, the difference is that the dramatic actions of a grand space opera are reduced to an ineffectual status.
I do know what kind of stories you're talking about. Coen Brothers made a bunch of movies which negate much of the actions of its characters ("No Country For Old Men" "Big Lebowski" etc.). Das Boot, etc. That no matter how monumental the success in overcoming the obstacles, the heroes' actions get negated.
The problem is that Mass Effect was not that kind of story until the ending, where it throws out pretty much everything leading up to that point.
What we got at the end was the conclusion of the Reapers' story. What we got was Shepard's end, but not the conclusion to Shepard's story. Galactic civilization is gone. The crew is (for no apparent reason) stranded (forever?) on a planet. And nothing you ever did over the last five years could change anything about it.
Bring peace to the Quarians and Geth? Cure the genophage? None of it matters in the long-run and has no bearing. Shepard's actions are ultimately as pointless as the common NPC mook shooting at husks. The Reapers don't care if you're a paragon of virtue. The cycle doesn't care if you're a total bastard. The galaxy will keep spinning long after you're dead and dust, regardless if you were straight, gay, or celibate. Who Shepard was doesn't matter. What sort of Shepard you played doesn't matter.
It's not like Das Boot, where the crew fights very hard and very valiantly to get home to port, only to be bombed in the harbor. It's not like "No Country For Old Men" where Llewlynn Moss bravely goes to try and face down Anton Chigurh, only to be caught offscreen by his assailants.
There's no culmination in all the of the actions in Mass Effect to find even that brief moment where you think everything is going to be all right and all that hard work pays off. There's no closure in how this ending is presented, no payoff, even an emotional one for all the time put in, since everyone can more or less get the same ending no matter what.
It's not like any myriad of apocalyptic stories about the end of the world (in this case, universe) as they know it. We've done the best we could or the worst we could, and that would color how you look at the ending.
In Mass Effect you do not get that.
As it's been pointed out, many feel that the characters escaping and crash landing on a jungle planet is out of character and forced in for that "Adam and Eve" theme.
I personally don't have a problem with Shepard's death or Synthetic life stuff, but I would have liked to have seen even so much as a cheesy 80s slideshow with a "Where are they now?" Montage that reflects more on how Shepard might have been viewed in the new history.
I find it presumptuous to make a comparison to 2001: A Space Odyssey in that audiences would demand to know what happened and call for either Arthur C. Clarke or Kubrick to change the ending. Not only does the story offer explanations and pieces of development within the scope of the first film, but it also factors in the events of the next.
This certainly was also not the case in a more recent film called "Memento" which challenged viewers to question what was going on the whole way through. And each decision made along the way colors the main character as well as the overall story a little differently up through the reveal at the end of the film.
The difference again, is that the decisions made along the way in Mass Effect do not factor into the ending. In a span of the last ten minutes, the difference is that the dramatic actions of a grand space opera are reduced to an ineffectual status.
I do know what kind of stories you're talking about. Coen Brothers made a bunch of movies which negate much of the actions of its characters ("No Country For Old Men" "Big Lebowski" etc.). Das Boot, etc. That no matter how monumental the success in overcoming the obstacles, the heroes' actions get negated.
The problem is that Mass Effect was not that kind of story until the ending, where it throws out pretty much everything leading up to that point.
What we got at the end was the conclusion of the Reapers' story. What we got was Shepard's end, but not the conclusion to Shepard's story. Galactic civilization is gone. The crew is (for no apparent reason) stranded (forever?) on a planet. And nothing you ever did over the last five years could change anything about it.
Bring peace to the Quarians and Geth? Cure the genophage? None of it matters in the long-run and has no bearing. Shepard's actions are ultimately as pointless as the common NPC mook shooting at husks. The Reapers don't care if you're a paragon of virtue. The cycle doesn't care if you're a total bastard. The galaxy will keep spinning long after you're dead and dust, regardless if you were straight, gay, or celibate. Who Shepard was doesn't matter. What sort of Shepard you played doesn't matter.
It's not like Das Boot, where the crew fights very hard and very valiantly to get home to port, only to be bombed in the harbor. It's not like "No Country For Old Men" where Llewlynn Moss bravely goes to try and face down Anton Chigurh, only to be caught offscreen by his assailants.
There's no culmination in all the of the actions in Mass Effect to find even that brief moment where you think everything is going to be all right and all that hard work pays off. There's no closure in how this ending is presented, no payoff, even an emotional one for all the time put in, since everyone can more or less get the same ending no matter what.
It's not like any myriad of apocalyptic stories about the end of the world (in this case, universe) as they know it. We've done the best we could or the worst we could, and that would color how you look at the ending.
In Mass Effect you do not get that.
As it's been pointed out, many feel that the characters escaping and crash landing on a jungle planet is out of character and forced in for that "Adam and Eve" theme.
I personally don't have a problem with Shepard's death or Synthetic life stuff, but I would have liked to have seen even so much as a cheesy 80s slideshow with a "Where are they now?" Montage that reflects more on how Shepard might have been viewed in the new history.
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Geech said:
Watch it anyway.
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
Uh? So Bioware's customers should not criticize the endings, because they are what they are?
The major things are implied, yes. Before the ending. The thing is, the ending changes everything. Space travel is impossible. The fleets are stranded on Earth. Depending on how the battle goes on, many leaders could potentially have been killed (Wrex is vital to the Krogan's developpement, yet is part of the ill-fated Taskforce Hammer, for example). Hell, everyone could magically have become half-robots by now. And this new situation is completely unnacounted for. We are supposed to believe that such radical changes do not deserve even a text epilogue? That everything is gonna be just fine after a dark age and that everyone will tell stories about The Shepard to their kids? ''Random cheesy stories'', were the Fallout epilogues random cheesy stories? Because that's the kind of closure I'm looking for after three game's worth of saving the damn galaxy.
Now you're making fallacious arguments. I don't want an hour-by-hour account of Shepard perfect sunshine and bunnies personnal life post-invasion. But knowing if the Quarians will survive as a species after being stranded on a world that cannot support them is pretty damn important to validating my choice of saving them.
Uh, that's the precise opposite of what's happening here. Lucas kept changing the trilogy to fit himself despite the fan's outcry. ME's fans want to change the allegedly crappy endings, while Bioware doesn't.
Delivering a complete, fulfilling, series-respectful, and most importantly sensical ending is fanservice to you? Because I simply cannot fathom how that ending is perfectly good. Even if you agree with the Star-Child, exploding Relays et all, the bit with the Normandy makes absolutely 0 sense and is impossibly anticlimatic.
I think I visit the BSN more than you. And most of the people praising the ending don't seem to have any argument, beyond ''it's deep'' or somesuch. Meanwhile, the numerous reasons why one could not like it are discarded as ''entitlement''. Doesn't help that some seem woefully mis-informed, and that this information is rather easily accessible. Obviously, such an emotionnal issue is going to make sparks fly, especially considering the state of Bioware's fanbase, but there's more to this than blind anger.
Doesn't make a difference to me but meh. And I don't get defensive, I've posted these ideas several times already elsewhere.
Again, this is not about having a happy ending or having every single mysteries resolved, but having an ending that makes sense, is thematically linked to the series (hopelessness? I never saw that. Sacrifice, yes, plenty. Doing what needs to be done. Bad stuff happens, yeah. But replay the endings of ME1 and ME2; there's always a beacon of hope there, always the hint that victory is possible.), and provides closure. None of which the current ending do.
You are perfectly entitled to your taste, I'm just pointing out that people don't simply hate the endings because they're unhappy; the problems with it are much deeper. Also, to use your analogy, the kid was promised for all the trip that he would get an Xbox, while his mother actually buys him a barbie doll. There's nothing inherently wrong with the barbie doll, but it's not at all what he wanted, was promised and has a use for. He's understandably going to be upset. Plus, in that case the doll is mysteriously missing an arm.
Discounting the fact that the book version of 2001 had an ending with much more closure and explanations yet was made before the film, this is another fallacy. There's explaining everything, and there's leaving us completely in the dark about the galaxy's future beyond a lame Buzz Aldrin cameo. Yet again, and it seems I have to repeat this often, I just want to know what the hell happens to the various races. Do they settle in on Earth? Do the Quarians and Turians survive, somehow? What about the important outlying worlds, you know, those we helped save? Tuchanka? Palaven? Rannoch? Thessia? Is good old Wrex still kicking? What the hell happened to make the Normandy chicken out of the final fight? So many obvious, important questions get unanswered, and after we were promised mere months ago closure, fulfillement and something more than a A, B, C ending.
Also, +1 to DevilTakeMe's entire post.
brfritos
Humma Kavulaaaaaaa
generalissimofurioso said:
ME3 endings are broken, that's the right word, but people aren't using it don't know why.
Really, the end contradicts a BIG portion of information passed in ME1, ME2 and also in ME3.
What happens when a mass relay is destroyed, for example?
So why Shepard are even having the final conversation about the destiny of other races?
And let's not mention the cut scenes, they are retarded.
Is the same thing saying in Fallout that super mutants are only cannibal ogres.
Oh wait...
Surf Solar
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
brfritos said:
How are they broken? I clearly saw an ending video, then the credits rolled and another short cliffhanger appeared, I had completed the game, I was satisfied. How is that "broken"?
Don`t project your own opinion onto everyone else, not everyone thinks the ending has "issues". Instead of actually discussing the game we are turning around in circles and talk about some superfluous ending stuff. :/
