New developer diary at Bethesda
- Thread starter Per
- Start date
It's funny, though, because the Knights Templar were bankers dressed as knights, rich guys whose only real goal was to get richer, and not really actually knights at all, the military wing of the Knights Templar best being described as the Crusade's Finest (which is hardly a good thing).
The comparison to them means he's not really recognising them as a knight-like organisation either, and, even more so, it indicates they're really not a "good" organisation, because the Knights Templar were a lot, but they weren't "good guys"
EDIT: wait, I just remembered the Knights Templar were actually organised as a monastic order (check Wikipedia if you want). That invalidates your invalidation of my point. Sorry, Ausir, but that bit of text actually confirms what I said.
The comparison to them means he's not really recognising them as a knight-like organisation either, and, even more so, it indicates they're really not a "good" organisation, because the Knights Templar were a lot, but they weren't "good guys"
EDIT: wait, I just remembered the Knights Templar were actually organised as a monastic order (check Wikipedia if you want). That invalidates your invalidation of my point. Sorry, Ausir, but that bit of text actually confirms what I said.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I am sure the code of honor they talk about is much akin to bushido, or warrior code.
This is taken from wikipedia:
Bushidō (武士道, Bushidō?), meaning "Way of the Warrior", is a Japanese code of conduct and a way of life, loosely analogous to the European concept of chivalry and the Iranian concept of jawanmardi, among others. It originates from the samurai moral code and stresses frugality, loyalty, martial arts mastery and honour unto death.
Nowhere in the above statement does it suggest that followers have a responsibility to be a good samaritan.
So while Beth may have associated "knights" with plate armor and such, they obviously have taken liberties and added a whole slew of thing that the brotherhood doesn't stand for just because a certain set of ranks is called "Paladin".
Edit: On another note, yes the christian version of "chivalry" does encourage the helping of innocent people. However, judging by the brotherhoods actions in F1, they obviously are not following the christian enterpretation.
This is taken from wikipedia:
Bushidō (武士道, Bushidō?), meaning "Way of the Warrior", is a Japanese code of conduct and a way of life, loosely analogous to the European concept of chivalry and the Iranian concept of jawanmardi, among others. It originates from the samurai moral code and stresses frugality, loyalty, martial arts mastery and honour unto death.
Nowhere in the above statement does it suggest that followers have a responsibility to be a good samaritan.
So while Beth may have associated "knights" with plate armor and such, they obviously have taken liberties and added a whole slew of thing that the brotherhood doesn't stand for just because a certain set of ranks is called "Paladin".
Edit: On another note, yes the christian version of "chivalry" does encourage the helping of innocent people. However, judging by the brotherhoods actions in F1, they obviously are not following the christian enterpretation.
DarkCorp said:
There is some disagreement on what exactly the Knights Templar code of honor entailed. Some claim it included "brotherhood of mankind", but I don't think that's ever been substantiated
As a code of life, Knights Templar took the vows (of poverty, chastity, piety, and obedience). Knights Templar were not allowed to be married. Does that sound familiar? That's right, they were a monk-like organisation. More monk than knight
'cept for their fighting part. A Knight Templar was not allowed to flee until all the flags had fallen. Very tough fighters.
I guess that's why the analogy with the BoS would work. The core of the Knights Templar was founded on the idea of a religious, monk-like (yes, sorry, Ausir, but I just realised that re-validates my point) traditions, but they also had knights to do the dirty work. And underneath that veneer, they were just bankers looking to get rich.
Well, there's also this:
I think we now know which part of FO2 inspired Bethesda's Brotherhood...
Sure, Knights Templar and Teutonic Knights were both a monastic and knightly organization. I didn't say they weren't monastic, I just said that it's not mutually exclusive. In comparison, the Abbey was going to be a purely monastic organization.
I think we now know which part of FO2 inspired Bethesda's Brotherhood...
Sure, Knights Templar and Teutonic Knights were both a monastic and knightly organization. I didn't say they weren't monastic, I just said that it's not mutually exclusive. In comparison, the Abbey was going to be a purely monastic organization.
Sorrow
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I think that the only explanation for such change of attitude could be the whole mess with Enclave - discovering that there are bigger powers out there. Power that are able to destroy the world.Brother None said:
They have lost some of their outposts and had to use an outsider's help to get the vertibird plans. It could make them understand the importance of collecting new technologies.
Still, it doesn't make sense to search for them in DC...
Maybe standing between life and death of hundreds or thousands or maybe even tens of thousands of people was a life-changing experience?DarkCorp said:
People which happened to live around him, while the Brotherhood HQ was far away?
Except that Osama Bin Laden isn't indifferent towards Americans - he is hostile towards them.DarkCorp said:
Oh, you mean Arthur Lionsheart?
Non-subtle reference pierced. Vapid stupidity revealed.
I thank you for digging up that quote. I had no idea the BoS was actually confirmed to be closest to a monastic order in-game, but now I know. Albeit a monastic order most well-known for its violent wing and money-grubbing way, but that just adds colour to the spice.
Mutually exclusive? No, but it is wrong to call the Knights Templar a knightly order, but it's correct to call them a monastic order. Just like it's correct to say "the Brotherhood of Steel values and structure would largely reflect those of the old monastic orders", but wrong to say "the Brotherhood’s values and command structure are actually more representative of a medieval knightly order." Which is what Bethesda did.
They = wrong, is the key thing I'm getting at, here.
You think there are more American governments hidden on oil platforms? I doubt it.
Non-subtle reference pierced. Vapid stupidity revealed.
I thank you for digging up that quote. I had no idea the BoS was actually confirmed to be closest to a monastic order in-game, but now I know. Albeit a monastic order most well-known for its violent wing and money-grubbing way, but that just adds colour to the spice.
Mutually exclusive? No, but it is wrong to call the Knights Templar a knightly order, but it's correct to call them a monastic order. Just like it's correct to say "the Brotherhood of Steel values and structure would largely reflect those of the old monastic orders", but wrong to say "the Brotherhood’s values and command structure are actually more representative of a medieval knightly order." Which is what Bethesda did.
They = wrong, is the key thing I'm getting at, here.
You think there are more American governments hidden on oil platforms? I doubt it.
Also, this "oath to destroy muties" is interesting:
Well, pretty much all religious knightly orders were a mix of military and monastic ways. I mean actual knightly orders, not D&D lawful good paladin orders. And pretty much all of them were organized as monastic orders, since that's what they were - military monastic orders comprised of noblemen (of course their army wasn't comprised only of noblemen, but only they were the actual members of the order).
Well, pretty much all religious knightly orders were a mix of military and monastic ways. I mean actual knightly orders, not D&D lawful good paladin orders. And pretty much all of them were organized as monastic orders, since that's what they were - military monastic orders comprised of noblemen (of course their army wasn't comprised only of noblemen, but only they were the actual members of the order).
Yes, it is. Very unclear what happened there, though. Did he lose a loved one in a fight with the supermutants? Did his personal convictions lead him to it? Who knows. Either way it's just one dude (paladin or knight?), the rest of the BoS probably thought he was nuts.
That's true, though this BoS smells closer to D&D lawful good paladin...but who knows?
Regardless, the distinction between knightly and monastic is an important one mostly due to the connotations it brings to modern readers. If I say "the BoS is a monastic order" I conjure up a reasonably accurate picture of a bunch of guys closed off from the world hard at work in their daily routines of worship. If I say "the BoS is a knightly order" I conjure up a wildly inaccurate picture of guys in shiny amours roaming the countryside looking for fights, for whatever reason
That's true, though this BoS smells closer to D&D lawful good paladin...but who knows?
Regardless, the distinction between knightly and monastic is an important one mostly due to the connotations it brings to modern readers. If I say "the BoS is a monastic order" I conjure up a reasonably accurate picture of a bunch of guys closed off from the world hard at work in their daily routines of worship. If I say "the BoS is a knightly order" I conjure up a wildly inaccurate picture of guys in shiny amours roaming the countryside looking for fights, for whatever reason
Brother None said:
It's 3 in the night and I have tu surpress laughter not to wake anyone up. Bad Brother None!
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
sorrow said:
So we are talking hundreds of thousands or thousands of people which have no way of defending or taking care of themselves. I think that itself is a stretch.
Also, the mutants were proven sterile so after such a long time, most, if not all of them must have died off. Current humans to super mutie ratio is far from fair.
Lastly, they are limited in resources. An elders primary duty is to his men and they to him. This isn't the US army anymore. They do not have orders from the remnants of the US government to clear america of hostiles, clean the land, and otherwise help restart the nation. And what takes the cake is the elder is going to sacrifice pretty much everything (including his men who have all been similarily indoctrinated to BOS ideology for years) just to help people who are too busy squabbling with each other to mount a suitable defense?
The BOS for that precise reason is indifferent (as long as their business doesn't affect BOS business) to the outside world. If the outsiders were to cause problems or potentially cause an unauthorized loss of valuable BOS resources, I am sure that indifference would turn to hate.
This below is taken from Fallout WIKI:
"While they're generally not hostile to others without a good reason, unlike the chivalrous knights of old, members of the Brotherhood are not interested in justice for the obviously weaker and less fortunate around them. They largely focus on keeping their secrecy and preserving and developing technology, which, in many cases, they put above human life. Their motives are often unclear, and Brotherhood members are not people to be trifled with. It is safe to say, however, that if a group of Brotherhood knights appears to be helping some less fortunate people, their motives are not altruistic."
If they had found something worth all that sacrifice, the elders would have aknowledged their discovery instead of treating them like seperatist lunatics.
"The Enclave gathered samples to be sent back to the Oil Rig for further analysis."
I am assuming they didn't take huge amounts, or would even risk storing huge amounts at the poseidon oil rig.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/FEV_Research
Above link so far explains that the only source of FEV originated from West Tek. As the tests neared 100%, the military wanted quicker results so they moved the entire operation to a different and much better facility "Mariposa Military Base".
Judging by the above info. I don't know how beth is gonna explain why more and more muties are showing up on the east coast. Or try to explain why the muties apparently have the numbers to be a serious threat again.
Ausir said:
But technically that was just a joke.
Well I think it is save to say now that we have cut all the Bethesda hype from this that Bethesda has done a major rewrite of the Brotherhood of Steel faction that has pretty much upset the concept, despite what the fans of Bethesda's Fallout 3 might say.
We got loads of excuses and theories of how to fill these plotholes but as I have told on another game forum "We fans shouldn't always try to find ways of fixing the damage made by a lazy writer.", this is not Star Wars where we get loads of theories of how the Rebels got the Death Star plans, and why Luke never found out that C3PO was actually built by his dad.
Far more plausible (well somewhat) saviours of the wasteland would have been the NCR forces or the NCR rangers, okay still self interest but they were out to rebuild the world while searching for remnants of the old world.
In Bethesda's vision they probably weren't exciting enough, they lacked any of the technological secrets the Brotherhood possesses and don't seem to be some kind of 'knight' order that has existed for quite some time.
As for the new Super Mutant issue, its plain stupid.
Thousands of the Master's Super Mutants (if there were thousands of them) didn't decide to journey to the East Coast for no apparent reason other than 'a hunch' (same goes for the Brotherhood).
And from what we know of Fallout 1 there were only two facilities with FEV; West Tek and Mariposa base.
There was no time to set up other bases where FEV would be created, all this took place a few years or months before the actual War happened, and there hasn't been any further work on it until the Master came around, and he pretty much sticked to Southern California.
Cloning technology? Again I call that lazy writing.
There are no story excuses, the only reason why both the Brotherhood and the Super Mutants are on the East Coast is because Bethesda sees them as demanded icons of Fallout, something that has to be present in every Fallout game.
Bethesda isn't making Fallout 3, its ripping off Fallout 1 and starting anew knowing that their new fans don't know and don't care were Fallout came from.
Ausir said:
Hi Ausir,
I hadn't mentioned but I do know what you mean, after the end of Fallout 1 most of the Super Mutants journey past the mountain ranges in the East, but like you said, I doubt thousands of them journeyed all the way to the East Coast.
There is still that radioactive zone somewhere in the Middle West.
Xenophile
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I actually was looking at the old files from Fallout and noticed something that relates to something someone had asked earlier. This is from maxon's file.
So it looks like there is active weapons manufacturing.
So it looks like there is active weapons manufacturing.
Xenophile said:
You have a point but I don't think its something as large as mass production, more like putting stuff together from loose Pre War parts and simple manufactured parts but no advanced electronics.
Xenophile
It Wandered In From the Wastes
The Dutch Ghost said:
I disagree.. they specifically say they design NEW weapons and manufacture them. That doesn't sound like piecing together old parts.
Xenophile said:
But again, the Brotherhood doesn't have any mass manufacturing equipment or infrastructure, you probably have seen their bunker.
At best they could put old stuff back to work and probably assemble devices and weapons from loose parts.
Only the Enclave had some manufacturing equipment up to Pre War standards and that was all destroyed with their headquarters.