Norwegian Massacre

alec said:
This fear or hatred can of course be caused or fed by a number of reasons. Maybe one hates or fears the other because they are 'stealing' resources. Maybe because their women get raped.

Xenophobia. It helped shape the world. Trust me. :D

Yeah but your being rather liberal with your defination of Xenophobia, did the Second World War come about because of xenophbia that came from Germany invading Poland. Because it wasn't the act of oppression and gaining power for a facsist state but rather because we just hated the Germans for doing it?
 
Argumentum ad Hitlerum. The inevitable result of any internet forum debate. The USA invaded Iraq, Viet Nam, and Korea because of Xenophobic reasons.
 
Horus9k said:
Argumentum ad Hitlerum. The inevitable result of any internet forum debate. The USA invaded Iraq, Viet Nam, and Korea because of Xenophobic reasons.

Not being an American I am largely unaware of these conflicts aside from very rudemantry knowledge of their approximate start and end dates.

EDIT: Everyone knows about the Nazis, that is why they are used so often; why waste time thinking of an original comparison which might require explaining when this one suffices? I don't find a pointless piece of observational humour like "Godwin's Law, entire premise of arguement is null and void" an acceptable answer.

EDIT: I didn't even say Hitler, in-fact I very deliberately said "Germany" because disacosiation between the two at the time is just denial.
 
I did an ethnic cleanse once. Ate nothing but curry for a week straight.
 
Are there Polish troops stationed in Iraq? Did Polish troops take place in the 2003 invasion of Iraq? I guess that makes you pretty ignorant of your country's own international obligations (ie. 'okay' xenophobia because the guys doing it aren't wearing grey and Sieg Heiling to a flag you don't like).

Using Nazis in any debate is a stifling tactic as debating such a period of time to non-historians (and in many cases actual historians) is like walking on egg shells.
 
Horus9k said:
Are there Polish troops stationed in Iraq? Did Polish troops take place in the 2003 invasion of Iraq? I guess that makes you pretty ignorant of your country's own international obligations (ie. 'okay' xenophobia because the guys doing it aren't wearing grey and Sieg Heiling to a flag you don't like).

I'm not fucking Polish either, Christ man. Being English I guess I can only use examples of English conflicts...

edit: Which I did anyway given that Britian declared war on Germany when it invaded Poland.
 
Another country that partook in the 2003 invasion of Iraq for xenophobic reasons and has occupying troops there.
The Enclave 86 said:
edit: Which I did anyway given that Britian declared war on Germany when it invaded Poland.
Yup, the most ruinous war for England and our Empire the world has ever seen.
 
Horus9k said:
Using Nazis in any debate is a stifling tactic as debating such a period of time to non-historians (and in many cases actual historians) is like walking on egg shells.

Am I comparing anyone's ideals to that of the Nazi Party? No. Did I even mention the Nazis? No, I said Germany because that was the state involved. It was a well known example of a military conflict.
 
Where exactly did I state he advocated social darwinism?

Never said you did. I said he disagreed with the idea strongly and can't really be seen as the guy who started it, as you implied.


It is said that semantic arguments are the last and least favourable way of winning a discussion. Why stoop so low?

The difference between scientific interest and fear is semantics? News to me and my dictionary.

Nietzsche didn't "outlaw" Darwin's works. Have you actually read "The Descent of Man" or did you read the Wikipedia page on it?

I wasn't talking about Nietzsche, but the gentleman who used (part of) his work to promote one of the harshest political agendas and the worst war in history. And I did read it.

As I said: xenophobia. Encrypted into their dna.

If you think that's how DNA works I have bad news for ya. Xenophobia is irrational fear of those different, not the reasonable fear of the unknown. Draw the semantics card all you want, it's not the same thing. It exists, certainly, but it's not inherent and inevitable and is not a trait of evolution.

Yezah, well, lab conditions do not exactly reflect natural
behaviour, now do they?

Except that's the point of this particular experiment, it wasn't done in a cliche laboratory with stark white walls and genetic-engineered mice, but recreated a ''natural'' scenario as faithfully as possible, which is the point of a lab.

You do realize that a misanthrope isn't exactlly the same as someone who is afraid of germs, right?

Yeah, I shouldn't have mentioned malaria, I guess. Let me rephrase it;

Oh yeah, I forgot, Misanthrope. Probably a convenient excuse not to approach anyone, I guess, s/he could give you good nature by talking to you or something, the inferior capitalist pig.

It has been and is being recorded. In poetry, for instance, which is a genre that all humans love, which is why it's so big and popular.

You try to make a correlation between the popularity and validity of a media on NMA, of all places?

Love is a footnote in history, my friend. It is not important whatsoever. It's one of those lies grown-ups tell their kids so that the kids would enjoy life a little more.
Funny how all love songs tell me about how shitty love is. How much it hurts. Funny how if I want to find an empathic, caring person, I have to go to a shrink who charges 60 euros per hour.
Yeah, this species is all about love, innit?

Now you have me utterly baffled. You just proved my point. And I am sorry your life is so sad, too, especially if you think what you are buying is anything but a product. Love is so fucking wonderful. Best feeling in the world. The fact you don't feel/believe in it doesn't mean it does not exist.

Behavioural studies show that cats basically hone their skills on their pray. It's education. And only well-fed animals play with their pray. Hungry animals always go for a quick kill, which saves them calories.

And you are lecturing me about semantics? My point is not that they all do, but that some do.

Which is something I already wrote, thank you very much.

And that would be where?

Also, bothering to change my nickname to make such an easy and lame pun? Come on, you can do better than that.

EDIT: Christ, you guys are using xenophobia like it's in fashion or something. WW2 (which barely mentionning does not invoke Godwin's Law, come on) had scores of it, but the invasion of Iraq had at least as much political and rational thinking to justify it. Not that it was legitimate or even useful by any means.

And hornets destroy a beehive when it becomes a danger to itself and/or occupies it's territory. Not the same thing as just hating bees because almighty DNA says so. Anyways it's not xenophibia snce they are not the same species.
 
Indeed, if I misread your first mentioning then forgive me, but reread that as it's hardly an easy read.
 
The Enclave 86 said:
Yeah but your being rather liberal with your defination of Xenophobia, did the Second World War come about because of xenophbia that came from Germany invading Poland. Because it wasn't the act of oppression and gaining power for a facsist state but rather because we just hated the Germans for doing it?
Yes, this needs clarification in the worst way. Did Germany invade Poland for xenophobic reasons (we can construe the 'Danzig crisis' as a xenophobic episode of sorts) or because of actual international grievances (ie. the desire to create a Greater Germany, plus the uncooperative attitude of all powers involved [which in part was due to the Munich Agreement by our boy Chamberlain and 'The Boss'])?

I just don't quite get what you were trying to say originally.

Plus 'Argumentum ad Hitlerum' is a inevitable mention of Nazism, Germany in WWII or any other subjects related therein for reasons that are sometimes not so easy to determine. In many cases it can lead to strawmen.
 
Horus9k said:
I just don't quite get what you originally were trying to say.

That Xenophobia is hatred (I always thought that it had to be irrational anyway?) but the reasons Alec gave were:

"Maybe one hates or fears the other because they are 'stealing' resources."

and

"Maybe because their women get raped."

Saying that both are just Xenophobic surely isn't right? When I was 10 a black kid beat the shit out of me, I would love to return the favour and I hate him but it's not Xenophobia; the fact that he is a different race to me is incidental but the act itself is why I hated him.

For Alec's example, somebody stealing anothers property is... theft, people fight for their property because they have it, it's not hatred of the other party's creed or race but defense of property.

edit: or aquisition thereof.

edit: The Danzig Corridor is xenophobia? Logistical and territorial but not motivated primarily by hatred of Poles.
 
Typically xenophobia illustrates short term irrational fears of foreigners based on crude examples. The Persians interacting with the Greeks is the first Western example of xenophobia. However the reasoning for xenophobia can be as wide and varied as possible as hatred (a better word is 'fear') can have many origins, some real and some believed. Just because some negro assaulted you and you chose to blame and individual and scorn racism doesn't mean that some other bloke won't pick up the racist banner after a similar confrontation.
The Enclave 86 said:
edit: The Danzig Corridor is xenophobia? Logistical and territorial but not motivated primarily by hatred of Poles.
The Danzig Corridor is... what? Come now.

That many Corridor Germans wanted to leave Poland and join the Reich was done in many cases for xenophobic reasons, some irrational but others quite real (as shown by the Bromberg Massacre). That's why Poland was scared as shit at Germany's mention of holding an international plebiscite in the corridor over what nation its fate should lay with, xenophobia.
 
Wrong.

Let's say theer's this country, rich with fossil fuels, and it's inhabited by veiled, religious people who believe in things that make no sense to us.

Let's say that they say: fuck you, no more oil for you, we need it ourselves.

You know what's going to happen, don't you? We'll invade them and kick their arses. Steal their oil.

Now say that said country is inhabited by the same people as us, Aryan (yes, I'll use the word), liberal, "free-thinking", our brothers and sisters actually, equally high on the ladder of technological ingenuity and enlightment. How do you think we'd explain a war with them?

We'd never wage one. We wouldn't be able to justify it.

So yes: xenophobia. Always xenophobia. That which is alien is easier to kill.
 
alec said:
Now say that said country is inhabited by the same people as us, Aryan (yes, I'll use the word), liberal, "free-thinking", our brothers and sisters actually, equally high on the ladder of technological ingenuity and enlightment. How do you think we'd explain a war with them?

We'd never wage one. We wouldn't be able to justify it.

Because it would be a harder war, I don't think that the leaders of nations and their entire attache are going to look over it because; "Damn, their white like us, guess we'll have to do without." More than likely because it would be a harder war to win, with consequences outweighing the profits.
 
Well to be fair the Persians and Poles in the examples of ancient Greece and contemporary Germany 'looked' in many instances just like their respective Greek and German counterparts. Xenophobia knows not race necessarily. Racism in the low-brow usage only describes hate/fear over color whereas xenophobia can be based on culture, identity, language etc.

Alec is quite right in pointing out aptly that xenophobia is the primary mover and shaker and dare I say culture and identity maker.
 
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