34thcell said:
If they are made from a 3D model, why not use the 3D model directly? Saves time, money, and allows for easy modelling, updating and modifying.
Obsidian's Project Eternity
- Thread starter Brother None
- Start date
If they are made from a 3D model, why not use the 3D model directly? Saves time, money, and allows for easy modelling, updating and modifying.
Bulletmachine
First time out of the vault
There go another $120.
$913,694!
And it's not even 24 hours old.
And it's not even 24 hours old.
Guiltyofbeingtrite
Vault Dweller
I'm always surprised, but then I realize that 23,000 backers isn't that huge compared to the amount of people that have played and liked Obsidian games.
They'll totally make it in less than 24 hours
They'll totally make it in less than 24 hours
34thcell said:
Why? Pre-rendered backgrounds cannot be easily modified, upgraded, do not allow for full freedom of camera movement important in tactical combat, nor can they be really expanded without rerendering. Besides, 3D environments are easier to work with and implement cover systems (important if fireballs start flying around), line of sight, sneaking etc.
No reason to use prerendering, when rendering dynamically is simply better.
Mad Max RW
Mildly Dipped
Makagulfazel said:
Nah, I really dug Planescape's writing and the cool as hell setting. But it still keeps me from replaying because the twitchy combat sucks the life out of me. The never-ending combat in BG2 is the reason I never finished that game.
Also, isn't Tim Cain at Obsidian now? The same dude behind TOEE? They nailed it with that game and I replayed it a dozen times because it's fun. If Obsidian can take that and make a great story with the freedom to do whatever they want I would easily pledge over $200 like I did for Wasteland 2. I like turnbased and hate real time with pause. I can totally understand why other people feel the opposite and it's fine. But it's not for me.
Tagaziel said:
Ok, I woke up, and I still know this game will use a static camera with 2D backgrounds and 3D models, or that was the plan I heard a week ago anyway.
It's Infinity Engine inspired. Infinity Engine backgrounds were rendered first, yes, but they weren't just rendered as 3D models and then applies as 2D models. They were rendered, angled, and then post-processed extensively. You're skipping a lot of steps by pretending the 3D work was directly output into the engine as 2D models.
Mad Max RW said:
Tim's working on this, yes. The heart of it is Sawyer's baby, but both Cain and MCA helped a lot on the setting and character system design.
Token-not-found
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Brother None said:
Eternity will run on older machines , right?
I dunno. Wouldn't assume anything. It's using Onyx and I don't know how well Onyx scales to older machines.
I loathe 2D backgrounds to this day. I love Planescape: Torment, but the 2D backgrounds irked me ever since Baldur's Gate and its skewed perspective.
Call it trauma, but I can't stand pre-rendered backgrounds. Pixel hunts. Scaling. Inability to properly enjoy the art style and indulge my curiosity due to a fixed camera.
Call it trauma, but I can't stand pre-rendered backgrounds. Pixel hunts. Scaling. Inability to properly enjoy the art style and indulge my curiosity due to a fixed camera.
Plus, there are a lot of artistic advantages to this approach. You can present an environment as a static composition - allowing the artist a lot of control over how things look without having to worry about different angles, a full composition etc. It means less need to worry about the practical implications of your artistic vision, you don't need to worry about implementing a full, functional 3D model, and you're not as restricted by technological limitations in terms of what can and can't be rendered quickly enough. You can add detail and flourishes after the fact in the 2D background etc. etc. etc.Brother None said:
Some of the Infinity Engine games used this stuff to great advantage, even though the technology was a little clunky. A lot of the really colorful and atmospheric environments in Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate 2 were only possible because of the 2D backgrounds, and the reason those graphics hold up so well today is that they're painted backgrounds with a lot of post-processing and manual additions.
Tagz, some of your complaints have very little to do with the technology itself. Like the pixel hunting at times, which was a design choice, not a consequence of the 2D backgrounds.
There are some advantages to using 2D backgrounds, and some advantages to using 3D environments. Which route you choose should be determined by the kind of game you want to make, and for what they want to do 2D backgrounds seem just fine.
I'm not going to hammer Eternity for this choice, if that's what you're saying, it's just that I dislike 2D backgrounds a great deal. Pixel hunting is a problem with the scalability of static, pre-rendered graphics at higher resolutions. I haven't seen a zoom implemented in most games, so in 1600x900 and higher that chest that's pretty noticeable in 800x600 is going to become very, very small.
I do agree that 2D graphics in Torment and Baldur's Gate (i.e. non-tile based 2D titles) hold up well, but I find them much less functional than 3D ones (I replayed Torment this June).
On a side note, as a lore junkie, fixed camera positions annoy me a great deal. I can't inspect stuff from every angle!
I do agree that 2D graphics in Torment and Baldur's Gate (i.e. non-tile based 2D titles) hold up well, but I find them much less functional than 3D ones (I replayed Torment this June).
On a side note, as a lore junkie, fixed camera positions annoy me a great deal. I can't inspect stuff from every angle!
Agreeing with Tagaziel. In 10 years, when we are running 10000x10000px resolutions, it will annoy the fuck out of us. It won't look better, it won't look worse... but it will be very tiny.
Monitors are too hip to be square. Duh
valcik
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Curious, are we?Tagaziel said:
I feel exactly opposite. For instance, free camera mode in The Fall: LDoG drives me crazy and those detailed 3D environments are destroying my very own imagination. I would sacrifice a virgin without any hesitation, just to see properly fixed camera in a bird's perspective!
Token-not-found
It Wandered In From the Wastes
valcik said:Curious, are we?Tagaziel said:
I feel exactly opposite. For instance, free camera mode in The Fall: LDoG drives me crazy and those detailed 3D environments are destroying my very own imagination. I would sacrifice a virgin without any hesitation, just to see properly fixed camera in a bird's perspective!
Haha they are very hard to find these days, virgins i mean.
Surf Solar
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
valcik said:Curious, are we?Tagaziel said:
I feel exactly opposite. For instance, free camera mode in The Fall: LDoG drives me crazy and those detailed 3D environments are destroying my very own imagination. I would sacrifice a virgin without any hesitation, just to see properly fixed camera in a bird's perspective!
This. Moving the camera around all the fucking time is is so annoying.
Sander and BN already said what I would have said, so I won't post more. Excited for the game!
But camera controls in The Fall are totally different: The camera is always fixed on your currently active character. You have no free move, the maximum you get is free rotation. Of course this feels shit (in a lot cases).
/Edit: Eternity is at 1 million now, by the way.
/Edit: Eternity is at 1 million now, by the way.
Dragon age looks shit.Tagaziel said:
Thing is, 3D is one of the things that can be done fast (relatively) but if done wrong it is not aging well. Look at Oblivion, Fallout 3. New Vegas is really a worse game in my eyes exactly because of that. Despite the good writing and good quests it has to deal with a stupid 3D engine. Or Dragon Age for that matter.
Baldurs Gate and similar games, like Planescape Torment, Arcanum and many more age much better. Simply because the world has an artistic feel compared to 3D which feels rather artificial.
That doesn't mean things cant be done as well or even better in 3D. But to many times people simply are either not willingly or lack the time/resources to make it look like a classic.