Russian-Ukrainian war

[zegh8578]

I doubt he gives two shits about anything unless it causes problems for his country.

Obviously, it was just such an example. "Wanna be an accepted and admired homosexual? Aim for Elton John or Freddy Mercury! Be a global cultural icon, then we might be okay with you!"

As for my 5 serious cents about Putin - since the cold was ended, we (the west) have turned Russia into a comedic relief. The jolly drunk bear-giant, with that buffoon Yeltsin helping out "PIZZAAA! PIZZAAAAAA!"

Now, merely 20 years later - time flies - in geopolitics, decades are like seconds, poof, the joke's over, and we suddenly realize that Russia has 150 million people, nukes, and "5th generation" tanks, whatever the fuck that means except America has "3rd gen" ones, which is shittier, right?
Point is, Russia never agreed to be the comedic relief of the super-powers. Russia never agreed to anything, and boom, Ukraine stopped laughing like, as if frozen mid "ha!" All the Baltics stopped laughing, Finland stopped giggling, even Sweden got a bit quiet. Norwegians acting all super-tough towards Russia, over fishing zones, I wonder how ballsy we are going to be for that next meeting, "Nono, you can have the fish! TAKE THE FISH!"

 

[DarkCorp]

T

 

[DarkCorp]

I

 

[Crni Vuk]

Seriously I've seen you making those posts in a couple of topics by now, could you stop with that? If you don't have something to say don't say anything at all ...

 

[DarkCorp]

Damn mobile device.

Yea Crni, because I love re-typing posts again and fucking again. You might want to hold off on knee-jerk posts like that.

Anyways, the bad times.

For one thing, it couldn't be that revolutions, in general, tend to be a bit messy. The French might disagree. The communists own grab for power in Russia wasn't preceded by a general insurrection. Life itself after the communist revolution was glorious and smooth.

It couldn't possibly be because of the states sudden inability to extort the shit out of its 'allies'.

It wasn't the result YEARS of government corruption, ineptitude and general mismanagement, that left the state coffers empty.

Noooo, it was bad U.S.A., bad NATO. You guys ruined glorious communist utopia.

And now, Putin, in all his no-shirt glory, is going to single handedly wipe out those pesky western folks who DARE to stop his rebuilding of an evil empire, that took DECADES to tear down.

Obama is going to be gone soon, I won't miss him.

 

[AskWazzup]

Let's relax, man crushes are nothing to be ashamed of. Here, let's all bathe in this glory:

 

[LordAshur]

Well, suggesting that the USSR and USA didn't do everything within their power to sabotage one another is a bit silly.

As I get it, life was better for the average Soviet citizen when the USSR existed. Even countries which were, as you say, leeched off (the USSR's foreign policy was pretty self-destructive in the post-Stalin period) have significant populations who think that life was better under the Soviets. Some research done in Romania has shown that a majority of Romanians would vote for Ceausescu if he was a presidential candidate today, and that the vast majority thinks that life was better in that period (then again, Romania wasn't as much of a puppet as the other WP countries, Ceausescu even refused to participate in the intervention in Czechoslovakia). I'm sure that most Ukrainians would agree that life was better back then too.

So it's questionable just how "evil" this empire was.

 

[Aniki]

Old folks even now from the ex soviet countries (heck even Russians themselves) say how they gladly would go back to those times. Thing is Russia today is not like USSR back then and those times won't come back even if next week Russia would decide go back to communist regime.

 

[LordAshur]

A lot of people probably don't see any improvment because where they couldn't do certain things back them because they weren't allowed to, now they can't do them because they can't afford to. I figure that unemployment is also a big issue, since there was practically none of it in socialism.

 

[Aniki]

Even though some people really had it better then, i would be cautious in making any conclusions here. How often do you see comments in youtube about how everything used to be better in the past: music, cars, food, love etc. There is a fair bit of bias when remembering the past, because everybody remembers the good stuff and forgets the bad stuff, like not being able to go where you want, have freedom of speech, buy anything you want etc.

As someone who was born in soviet union and experienced a little bit, I myself have fond memories of those days, but then again I was a kid who didn't even know about politics, ideologies, etc. I can say there is good reason why people think fondly of those days. For instance every person was guaranteed to get health care, a job and young married couples had a chance to own a place to live in for free, in fact I'm typing right now from a 2 room apartment which the soviet government gave to my parents back then and now I own it.
As for the bad stuff people didn't forget and new generations are taught at schools in history classes about all the soviet atrocities, so the bad stuff ain't disappearing with time.

 

[AskWazzup]

As someone who was born in soviet union and experienced a little bit, I myself have fond memories of those days, but then again I was a kid who didn't even know about politics, ideologies, etc. I can say there is good reason why people think fondly of those days. For instance every person was guaranteed to get health care, a job and young married couples had a chance to own a place to live in for free, in fact I'm typing right now from a 2 room apartment which the soviet government gave to my parents back then and now I own it.
As for the bad stuff people didn't forget and new generations are taught at schools in history classes about all the soviet atrocities, so the bad stuff ain't disappearing with time.

I was born in the soviets too, though i can only remember the very end at 89-90~. I live at soviet apartement also, however it was bought and my parents had to pay taxes like everyone else. My earliest memories are of liking the kvass sold at the stands and hating the terrible cars, busses and dentists. What i have noticed from talking with people though, is that the ones who remember those times with the most fondness, are the ones who didn't have all that many needs (or had good connections), or th ones who loved to steal from factories and drink on the job.

I personally am terrified at how hard it sometimes was to buy furniture, cars (parts for cars), get apartaments (waiting for forever) and standing in lines at the store for hours. Having jeans meant you were the shit, just how hilarious is that? You could have money, but what's the point, if the very best you could buy was some terrible lada...

 

[Aniki]

I was born in the soviets too, though i can only remember the very end at 89-90~. I live at soviet apartement also, however it was bought and my parents had to pay taxes like everyone else. My earliest memories are of liking the kvass sold at the stands and hating the terrible cars, busses and dentists. What i have noticed from talking with people though, is that the ones who remember those times with the most fondness, are the ones who didn't have all that many needs (or had good connections), or th ones who loved to steal from factories and drink on the job.

I personally am terrified at how hard it sometimes was to buy furniture, cars (parts for cars), get apartaments (waiting for forever) and standing in lines at the store for hours. Having jeans meant you were the shit, just how hilarious is that? You could have money, but what's the point, if the very best you could buy was some terrible lada...

Kvass is one of those things that everybody fondly remembers. I love it too, but the ones that are sold right now just don't taste like the ones back then. If you want to get that taste you need to brew it yourself. Problem with buying things was real, but you need to set you mind to understand it more. Since there was a product deficit, people treasured what they had. Just like you said about jeans right there. Since not everyone could get them, those who DID get them were happy just for that. Same thing with cars, you know they're shit (although not all) if you compare them with foreign ones, but they were expensive and having one meant something more, not just your social status, but just that basic fact that you now have the means to go let's say from one city to another without the need to use public transport - that meant a lot. Now compare that with now. Just look how ridiculous things are getting: Apple creates a phone, people buy it, then after a year it makes a slightly better version of that phone, people immediately go switch their old ones for the new one even though there's nothing wrong their old one and the differences are not that big. Then there's all that stupid Android vs Iphone fan fights. Each needs to prove why their phone is better than others. Consumer needs at it's finest.

 

[DarkCorp]

I never lived in U.S.S.R., so I will defer to you two.

I am however, an American and will weigh in on consumer crazy at its finest.

I dislike the consumerism mentality as well. The biggest problem with Americans is how fucking spoiled we are. So much shit is thrown away (the corporate asshats even tell the stores to fuck up perfectly good shit when its thrown away). We need the newest this and fucking that while ignoring something called financial responsibility. Who fucking cares about saving money up for a rainy day, I got motherfucking, expensive ass, RIMS. We buy up shit on credit or finance houses and vehicles we cannot afford because personal responsibility is overlooked. This is partially because of government policies and lazy parenting.

But again, this doesn't mean we are, in any way, FORCED to do this. It all boils down to personal choices. If one cannot afford to live alone, they can find roommates or move back in with their parents. It is much easier to save a house when the kids move back in and help with the mortgage. The parents could sweeten the deal by adding the kids as owners so that it turns into an investment.

If one cannot afford to have a new car, do your best with a used one. One doesn't NEED new.

But the ability to have more and new, IF we can afford to have it AFTER taking care of necessities first, is very nice. The problem of communist China, where my parents came from, was that shit was just flat out unavailable. Communist principles, like Che Gueveras 'New Man', failed miserably. Those that made their quotas received a certificate and those who didn't earned a small pay cut. In a world where not much is available in the first place, why not take the small paycut? After all, the government already said its going to take care of your needs (in the most basic way possible).

Also, as Ask pointed out, my parents had the unfortunate situation of being from less than stellar families. My great great great grandfather was a landowner so his family was fucked. My mothers father, worked as a teacher, during the KMT dominated regime. I don't think he was even a registered party member. But that didn't matter to the government. My mother was one of many who were relocated to the countryside doing menial farm labor as she was considered 'un-trustowrthy', to live in the cities.

So again, its based on individual experiences. But overall, atleast in communist countries, things were pretty shitty.

 

[Dr Fallout]

It's nice to see so many Russians/Soviets. I'm one too but I was born in Australia. Thanks for giving some information about it, my parents remember it fondly, but then again Nostalgia is the main factor.

 

[AskWazzup]

Kvass is one of those things that everybody fondly remembers. I love it too, but the ones that are sold right now just don't taste like the ones back then. If you want to get that taste you need to brew it yourself. Problem with buying things was real, but you need to set you mind to understand it more. Since there was a product deficit, people treasured what they had. Just like you said about jeans right there. Since not everyone could get them, those who DID get them were happy just for that. Same thing with cars, you know they're shit (although not all) if you compare them with foreign ones, but they were expensive and having one meant something more, not just your social status, but just that basic fact that you now have the means to go let's say from one city to another without the need to use public transport - that meant a lot. Now compare that with now. Just look how ridiculous things are getting: Apple creates a phone, people buy it, then after a year it makes a slightly better version of that phone, people immediately go switch their old ones for the new one even though there's nothing wrong their old one and the differences are not that big. Then there's all that stupid Android vs Iphone fan fights. Each needs to prove why their phone is better than others. Consumer needs at it's finest.

I am a minimalist myself, however in the soviets they did not bring up a culture that respects preciousness of items and economy, because as soon as the walls and autocratic restrains fell, corruption and theft spread like wild fire in the 90' post soviet block. So i don't see how the shortage contributed to anything good in the long run. To top it off, planned economy was terrible at efficiency, even if some people were not. Truck drivers used to spill out containers of diesel on the side of the road, if they didn't meet the quota for that days mileage, the economy had holes all over the place.

As for now, i think it's a two edged sword. Sure, we don't need new smartphones every year, but it greatly increased the current level of mobile technology by the virtue of there being a huge market for new electronic gadgets. It's shit that this could not be done in a better way, but at least there is rapid process, with the included bonus that the new technology is more efficient at power management and thus could be beneficial in the long term power savings and pollution.

 

[Aniki]

I am a minimalist myself, however in the soviets they did not bring up a culture that respects preciousness of items and economy,

And they never intended to. That simply happened because there was a shortage of everything in those days and along with that came the appreciation of what you got.

because as soon as the walls and autocratic restrains fell, corruption and theft spread like wild fire in the 90' post soviet block. So i don't see how the shortage contributed to anything good in the long run.

You sound like, when the soviet union collapsed folks went straight to factories and started stealing everything they could get their hands on. And it's not like greed was non-existent back then, it just didn't reach the level that it is now in the post-soviet countries.Those who were in high position and had powerful friends atop before the collapse could suddenly own factories and other business, hence all that corruption thing. But I wouldn't call them average folk I was talking about.

As for now, i think it's a two edged sword. Sure, we don't need new smartphones every year, but it greatly increased the current level of mobile technology by the virtue of there being a huge market for new electronic gadgets. It's shit that this could not be done in a better way, but at least there is rapid process, with the included bonus that the new technology is more efficient at power management and thus could be beneficial in the long term power savings and pollution.

So you're saying if people would stop buying new phones every year for the sake of having the latest phone the whole mobile technology will slow down? I doubt that. If you want to be the leader of the market you must provide a better product than your competitors. That's how it works. If consumers don't care about power savings and pollution, companies won't make it their priority when developing a new product.

 

[AskWazzup]

And they never intended to. That simply happened because there was a shortage of everything in those days and along with that came the appreciation of what you got.

Well, to be fair, you did not claim anything else besides that. I went into an argument, that this does not bring anything of value, rather than just being a reality of life.

You sound like, when the soviet union collapsed folks went straight to factories and started stealing everything they could get their hands on. And it's not like greed was non-existent back then, it just didn't reach the level that it is now in the post-soviet countries.Those who were in high position and had powerful friends atop before the collapse could suddenly own factories and other business, hence all that corruption thing. But I wouldn't call them average folk I was talking about.

The average folk who gladly stole from the factories? My point is that (even though you did not start this argument as i previously mentioned) the soviet reality did not bring about a culture of rationality and ethics, at least not to the same level as in the west Europe. That autocratic environment only made people greedy.

So you're saying if people would stop buying new phones every year for the sake of having the latest phone the whole mobile technology will slow down? I doubt that. If you want to be the leader of the market you must provide a better product than your competitors. That's how it works. If consumers don't care about power savings and pollution, companies won't make it their priority when developing a new product.

Yes, but i'm not defending or encouraging buying a phone every year, it's just a simple observation that if you have more demand, in a healthy market, you will have more competition which will lead to more development of new technologies. These are the same android/apple wars you mentioned - who will have the next big feature/improvement.

But they do care about power savings, not because they care about the nature, but they want their phone to last longer, thus we get smaller and more efficient processors with better batteries. Many people are saying goodbye to bulky laptops and computers and choose these small 4 watt tablets instead.

 

[Aniki]

That autocratic environment only made people greedy.

Or maybe the lack of it is what actually made them greedy. Once the regime was gone and along with it's death penalty for large-scale theft of state property, those who could take the opportunity, used it. Laws of that kind of sort gotten softer after the collapse, and that made people bolder.

 

[AskWazzup]

That autocratic environment only made people greedy.

Or maybe the lack of it is what actually made them greedy. Once the regime was gone and along with it's death penalty for large-scale theft of state property, those who could take the opportunity, used it. Laws of that kind of sort gotten softer after the collapse, and that made people bolder.

So by that logic it would be better for North Koreans to never be free, as they have all the shortage and all the oppression to make the whole world a jolly place.

 

[Aniki]

Don't put words in my mouth. Where did I tell that people shouldn't be free from the soviet regime? My point was that maybe strict anti-corruption laws in the soviet union and the lack of them after the countries got their independence could've played a role in increased corruption.