Star Wars: Rogue One

Crni Vuk said:
But Vader never striked me as this character, that was supposed to have this incredible huge and long back story. That is, of course if we ONLY(!) look at New Hope, which was the first of all the Star Wars movies, and here he simply seems to be like just as you say, to be this character that gets shit done. You need someone to do the dirty work? Get Vader. I mean we will never know that part anyway, unless you're best buddies with Lucas who told you exactly what he wanted to do some 40 years ago.
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I dunno, Darth Vader actually has the biggest backstory in a New Hope. "A pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights." There's a lot of unspoken history and story there which you wouldn't get with, say, your typical Nazi thug and legbreaker.
 
That doesn't make it good.

Altho in general I think the concept of a "backstory" is extremely overrated. Sure if done well it can make a character well rounded out and interesting but it tends to supplant actual characterization in the present of the story being told, lots of characters are only defined by the flashbacks and blurbs on shitty tie in books rather than what they do on screen.
Vader was a cool villain for the kind of movie the first Star Wars was not because of his backstory but because of how it was handled, he was this dude in an intimidating suit that had a cool red lightsaber and had freaky powers and flight skills, he was a Black Knight archetype but they handled it well, he was never meant to be some super complex character. Even in the second one he is still mostly defined by his chill attitude and cold cruelty, he freezes Solo and cuts his son's hand off before revealing without much emotion his connection to him, mostly goading him to join him to acquire more power. Then the third movie happened and he just loses all menace, he has a change of heart that comes kind of out of nowhere and in the special editions they even added in a "Nooooo!" to the moment to make it all the goofier. The less is said about Emokin the best, before the Prequels Vader was this cool Black Knight, after the prequels he is a whinny bitch in a suit of armor who only sounds cool because of his new voice.
In movies, as opposed to long running tv series or books, you have to make the viewer connect to the character with what happens on screen not with "Teh LORE!" nerds jizz about on forums. Just look at Episode 7, characters were bland and the movie relied entirely on nostalgia cover itself, they try to sell the backstories as tie ins but all details they add just make what you saw on screen seem stupider with every page turn.
 
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Here again, but all of that was explained LATER(!), and not in A New Hope. I already said it, if we ONLY look at the first Star Wars movie as a stand alone project. Look, I am not tellingyou that Vader is shit or that he doesn't work as a villain, ok? I think he is a very effective vilain as far as Star Wars goes. But interesting? I would say not really. That interesting part, came later when he got an actuall backstory.

CT Phipps said:
Except for the Emperor, Tarkin, Jabba, and Boba Fett.

You know, all the other villains.
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Which, coinsidence! Have been all introduced with ... The Empire Strikes back! That's the point I am trying to make, that Vader was never supposed to be more than your average bad guy. Look, I am not claiming that this is the truth or something, just that it's how I feel about it, that Vader was never supposed to be more than what he is in A New Hope, a simple bad guy that gets shit done, the fact that he looks very interesting doesn't mean that he has to be very interesting. All of the details, who he was and his history came at a much later point.

I mean look at what the inspiration was for Star Wars, what they tried to create, Lucas and his friends wanted to pay some homage to the adventure/sci-fi movies of the 50s, going for Flash Gordon, adventures in Space, creating a fary tale with light sabers, space wizards and all that stuff and something that was like a western in space.

The old Star Wars get waaaay to much attention anyway. I admit, they are very entertaining, if you're a child, but they are not exactly what you can describe as deep and meaningfull cinema - not that they have to be, I am just saying! - I wouldn't be surprised if there was even a real plan to make more than one movie and that most of the actors, writers and directors actually thought that Star Wars : A New Hope would be a flopp. An experiment. A neat little thing to make art. Doing something they see as 'fun' rather than just for 'money'.

How do I know that? Well, look at what happend to Return of the Jedy and why the Ewoks are in. Lucas, is a great guy when it comes to selling merchandise and marketing. That guy definetly has a keen sense on what sells! But a movie director that tells you deep and meaningfull stories? Eh, I would say not so much, there are definetly better ones out there that actually left a huge impression on movie making, like Hitchcock, Coppola and Kubrick, directors that started pretty much like Lucas, as nobodys.
 
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I would say what makes him effective is the effects he has on Luke's character. He kills his mentor and "MIGHT" have killed his dad, Luke facing a figure that represents such intense emotions for him is what makes him effective. Ultimately Obi Wan doesn't interact with Vader that much, his interactions with him don't reallt have a visible effect on Vader himself in the first movie. It's when the third rolls in with the Goofy Force Ghost Obi Wan shit that they start ruinning Vader.
 
Yeah, I personaly never liked that idea of 'force ghosts'. No clue why, it just feels like it dimnishes the death of the characters, the impact it has on the protagonist.
 
Walpknut said:
in the special editions they even added in a "Nooooo!" to the moment to make it all the goofier
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I really hated that. That silent moment where he is physically torn between his servitude to the Emperor and his love for his son was quite a powerful moment when I first saw it. The actor in the suit managed to portray the internal conflict in Vader pretty damn well.

Then Lucas added in his favorite two-letter word to the scene and ruined it forever, unless the Despecialized edition becomes the official version.
 
Rey was colorful? where? Like in comparison to Jyn? That's a really low bar to set.

Isn't everyone tired of movies now just forcing this Farcical attitude to everything? Characters no longer have human motivations and they also can't take anything that is happening serious, some self awareness is nice but when the movie just becomes people looking at the screen and going "Am I right?" about every aspect of the plot it just gets tiring.

The term "Edgy" is thrown around as the worst thing anything can be, but Dullness is far worse. Everything needs a bit of edge to not be completely boring, dullness will always bring a scene down.
 
Walpknut said:
Rey was colorful? where? Like in comparison to Jyn? That's a really low bar to set.

Isn't everyone tired of movies now just forcing this Farcical attitude to everything? Characters no longer have human motivations and they also can't take anything that is happening serious, some self awareness is nice but when the movie just becomes people looking at the screen and going "Am I right?" about every aspect of the plot it just gets tiring.

The term "Edgy" is thrown around as the worst thing anything can be, but Dullness is far worse. Everything needs a bit of edge to not be completely boring, dullness will always bring a scene down.
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Colorful as in the interaction between characters was there, and RO's character dynamic had very little going on. The cast was way too cluttered for what is supposed to be a one-off movie, and you have very little room to create backstory for the characters. Honestly, how high is your bar for Rey in what is an incomplete trilogy?

I feel as though they've at least cemented a likable ensemble with characters that actually play off of each other.
 
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One thing I didn't like about Rogue One was that the whole "moral grey rebels" thing felt a bit forced with Jyn.
I mean, c'mon. He already disobeyed his orders, what more do you want? "You would make a great stormtrooper!" Yeah, in the First Order where you can apparently desert on your first mission after being trained from childhood. And after that it's all cool again. Meh.
 
Hassknecht said:
One thing I didn't like about Rogue One was that the whole "moral grey rebels" thing felt a bit forced with Jyn.
I mean, c'mon. He already disobeyed his orders, what more do you want? "You would make a great stormtrooper!" Yeah, in the First Order where you can apparently desert on your first mission after being trained from childhood. And after that it's all cool again. Meh.
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Cut her some slack, Rebels just killed her father and he planned to shoot him. A proper response is to murder him and get the hell out of there.
 
"It's an incomplete trilogy" so? a character should be well written from the first movie, why are you apparently giving them 3 movies as a leeway? Do you do that with other movies? Rey is boring, has no character or emotional arc, her motives are bland and confusing and she is just a mary sue that every character flocks to and who has every possible power and ability on the story. That's a shit character.

Fin is a completely nonsensical character that just serves as comedic relief and then gets his spine cut at the end.

The rest are just returning cast memebers (and with real life tragedy now Leia isn't even gonna be involved anymore) and an R2D2 clone, what ensemble have they created?
 
Walpknut said:
"It's an incomplete trilogy" so? a character should be well written from the first movie, why are you apparently giving them 3 movies as a leeway? Do you do that with other movies? Rey is boring, has no character or emotional arc, her motives are bland and confusing and she is just a mary sue that every character flocks to and who has every possible power and ability on the story. That's a shit character.

Fin is a completely nonsensical character that just serves as comedic relief and then gets his spine cut at the end.

The rest are just returning cast memebers (and with real life tragedy now Leia isn't even gonna be involved anymore) and an R2D2 clone, what ensemble have they created?
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Well, I'm not. They've already cemented a likable ensemble as I've mentioned, and I can at least look forward to them developing that cast further. It's an improvement over what we ended up with in the prequels, where the protagonist wasn't introduced until 40 minutes into the movie, and everyone else was just plain boring to listen to before and after that introduction.

The mary sue quality sucks, but it's a whole lot better than the aforementioned dreary, knuckle-drugging ensemble that RO was. It was a byproduct of corporate focus groups trying to force their way with Chinese audiences; everything else was just terrible outside of the story trying to be different but falling short because it relied on so many forced references and ham fisted character insertion.

Having watched ANH recently, the mary sue quality was there for Luke but less forced and overt. Considering that the trilogy is probably a soft-reboot of the prequels, I can guess that the second movie is going to be Empire Strikes Back 2.0, and we'll see Rey get her hand cut off to match her dad.

But, I just don't see how you can watch TFA and not know the motivation for Rey; she's trying to find her Dad or Mom who left her on a planet, and she's hoping they'll come back for her. They covered that entire bit in a flashback sequence.
 
Luke isn't a Mary Sue, the guy fails too much to even qualify as a Mary Sue.
Rey is trying to find her dad or mom? No she isn't, this is never her motivation because she just leaves the planet she was supposed to wait them on and then makes only one token attempt at calling it quits and then she just becomes the chosen one of the rebellion to find Luke even tho they barely know her. She really doesn't have too much of a motivation for anything she does, she just, wants to help bb8 for reasons, she then thinks the "Resistance" is cool for reasons (she apparently doesn't even know what a fucking forest is and she thinks both Luke and the force are myths) she hops on the ship to another galaxy without much thought, attempts to go back once, apparently forms an immediate Daugther Father attachment to Solo despite barely knowing him, gets captured, awakens her magic level 100 Jedi powers and becomes the most trusted member of the Resistance she apparently had no interest in joining despite her thinking they are awesome and playing pretend to be a rebel pilot, like what the fuck is her character?

Luke wanted to quit his boring life as a farmer and Obi Wan was the magic ticket to a world of perceived adventure that then becomes bigger than what he expected with Kenobi getting killed and Luke jumping at the opportunity to join the rebellion both to avenge his guardians and his mentor. It's simple, it's basic, but it works.

And that's the portagonist of this new fucking movies, the plot is just the first 2 movies mashed together with worse pacing. The rest of the characters are just returning cast members who were phoning it in from the parking lot and the only other original character is just a comedy relief bufoon who should be paralyzed for the rest of the movies now.
 
Walpknut said:
Luke isn't a Mary Sue, the guy fails too much to even qualify as a Mary Sue.
Rey is trying to find her dad or mom? No she isn't, this is never her motivation because she just leaves the planet she was supposed to wait them on and then makes only one token attempt at calling it quits and then she just becomes the chosen one of the rebellion to find Luke even tho they barely know her. She really doesn't have too much of a motivation for anything she does, she just, wants to help bb8 for reasons, she then thinks the "Resistance" is cool for reasons (she apparently doesn't even know what a fucking forest is and she thinks both Luke and the force are myths) she hops on the ship to another galaxy without much thought, attempts to go back once, apparently forms an immediate Daugther Father attachment to Solo despite barely knowing him, gets captured, awakens her magic level 100 Jedi powers and becomes the most trusted member of the Resistance she apparently had no interest in joining despite her thinking they are awesome and playing pretend to be a rebel pilot, like what the fuck is her character?

Luke wanted to quit his boring life as a farmer and Obi Wan was the magic ticket to a world of perceived adventure that then becomes bigger than what he expected with Kenobi getting killed and Luke jumping at the opportunity to join the rebellion both to avenge his guardians and his mentor. It's simple, it's basic, but it works.

And that's the portagonist of this new fucking movies, the plot is just the first 2 movies mashed together with worse pacing. The rest of the characters are just returning cast members who were phoning it in from the parking lot and the only other original character is just a comedy relief bufoon who should be paralyzed for the rest of the movies now.
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She's on a planet covered in sand, and has very little access to technology that tells her about the ecosystems of other planets. It's forgivable and totally understandable.

You also kinda forgot she jumped on a ship to another planet because they were being tailed by bad guys along the way, what with the First Order and finally the Mercenary crews hounding them until they hit Planet Green forests. She decides to go back to Jakku before getting captured by the First Order.

The parallels between ANH and TFA are there though. Mentors: Han Solo vs Obi-Wan, protags good at flying space craft, natural affinity with the force. Luke barely knew Obi-Wan but decided to hang out with him, he was only forced off the planet because the Empire killed his family (wow sounds a lot like Rey). I could understand dogging the movie for being a soft-reboot and being an unoriginal story, but the quality of the cast is a lot better and paints a similar picture to the prequel cast. Everyone riffs off of each other in a more natural manner.

For the sake of avoiding going off topic, feel free to PM me if you want to continue talking about it.
 
She was only being tailed by bad guys because she decided to help the R2D2 clone get to the base for reasons again, as far as she knows Fin could get R2D2 back to the base and she could've just sold the robot for rations.
And of course there are "parallels" Between the Force Awakens and the New Hope. Te force awakens was aping the new hope with very little creativity and failing at doing all of it, both characterization wise and pacing wise. No idea why you are even stating this fact as a "WOW THIS ARGUMENT HE DIDN'T REALIZE!!!" when I already called the plot of the movie a cheap mix of the first 2 movies? Also Luke never unlocked Jedi Mind tricks nor did he beat a sith in combat without training on his first day using the force so....
 
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